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Thoughts on engine vibration
#1470253
07/19/13 02:26 PM
07/19/13 02:26 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
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Wisconsin
Mopar_Mudder
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I am just looking for some input on chacing down what I think is an engine vibrations. Here is what I have. 472 Hemi Alum Heads Mopar Performance # P5153737 Intake Stock Exhaust Manifolds Stock repoduction pulleys Stock Motor Mounts McLeod Billet Steel Flywheel Ram diaphragm pressure plate – 10.95” Ram dual friction surface performance disc Quick Time Bell Housing TKO-600 Transmission Energy Suspension Polyurethane Transmission Mount From the first time I started it I didn't think if felt right, seems alot of harmonics in the car but I didn't think much of it. Then the other day I got in my truck with a 440 built by the same builder and man that thing is smooth as silk all the way up to 7000. The vibration get worse as the RPM's increase, feels like the engine is running hard at 4000 or so. Vibration is thier with the clutch pushed in, it get worse with the clutch engauged and in neutral. I am going to check all the plugs tonight and see if everything look good their. Would any kind of miss or fuel problem cause this. I know originally I had an Orange box on it and switched to a Chrome and it seemed to get better. My next step, that I don't want to do, is to pull the exhaust and tranny  because I keep wondering if the flywheel would somehow not be running true, not sitting square to the crank or something. But for now I will check the plugs because I have a cruise to do this week end. Then if I find a bunch of ambition I will pull the tranny next week 
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Re: Thoughts on engine vibration
[Re: DAYCLONA]
#1470257
07/19/13 04:15 PM
07/19/13 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Sometimes it's the simplest of things before you go to far pulling the car apart, confirm the firing order of the plug wires/dist cap orientation, if it still has those MP blue ignition wires supplied on it, toss'em!.... 
IIRC you also installed a Hurst/Classic 5 spd, who supplied the McLeod flywheel? what's the balance?, and cranks balance?
The plug wires are FireCore brand. I have checked the fireing order, I assume that it is the standard V8 firing order right, 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2
The tranny kit came from Toney Edler @ Hurts Driveline. Engine is internal Balance, Flywheel is suppose to be 0 balanced
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Re: Thoughts on engine vibration
[Re: autoxcuda]
#1470258
07/19/13 04:16 PM
07/19/13 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Does it have the vibrations with the car not moving?
Yes, everything I am talking about is not moving. In nuetral of with the clutch pushed in.
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Re: Thoughts on engine vibration
[Re: Mopar_Mudder]
#1470259
07/19/13 04:25 PM
07/19/13 04:25 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,848
Memphis
HemiRick
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What bellhousing? Was it checked for being centered behind the crank?
Take care,
Rick
68 Coronet R/T 440 & 68 Charger 528 Hemi,and 5 Challengers! 6 cyl, 318, 360, 383, 451
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Re: Thoughts on engine vibration
[Re: HemiRick]
#1470260
07/19/13 04:31 PM
07/19/13 04:31 PM
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Quote:
What bellhousing? Was it checked for being centered behind the crank?
It is a quick time and no it wasn't 
This was something I found out you were suppose to do after I had it all installed in the car, would have been way easy to do on the stand. Figured I would take a chance an hope for the best. The fact that the vibration is their when the clutch is pushed in leads me to belive that more then the bell housing is the problem. But I will check it if I pull it apart to check the flywheel.
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Re: Thoughts on engine vibration
[Re: Mopar_Mudder]
#1470261
07/19/13 06:43 PM
07/19/13 06:43 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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JohnRR
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Quote:
Quote:
What bellhousing? Was it checked for being centered behind the crank?
It is a quick time and no it wasn't
This was something I found out you were suppose to do after I had it all installed in the car, would have been way easy to do on the stand. Figured I would take a chance an hope for the best. The fact that the vibration is their when the clutch is pushed in leads me to belive that more then the bell housing is the problem. But I will check it if I pull it apart to check the flywheel.
Would have been easier to do with it not installed in the car but you would not have done it with the engine bolted to the stand.
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Re: Thoughts on engine vibration
[Re: Mopar_Mudder]
#1470262
07/19/13 11:42 PM
07/19/13 11:42 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,160
Mass
DAYCLONA
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Quote:
Quote:
What bellhousing? Was it checked for being centered behind the crank?
It is a quick time and no it wasn't
This was something I found out you were suppose to do after I had it all installed in the car, would have been way easy to do on the stand. Figured I would take a chance an hope for the best. The fact that the vibration is their when the clutch is pushed in leads me to belive that more then the bell housing is the problem. But I will check it if I pull it apart to check the flywheel.
RuH rOe....The QuickTime bells are notorious for being way off in run-out, and the Tremec is so sensitive to big run-out values, most times the QuickTime needs to be machined to obtain the required run-out specs, as offset dowels are limited in range, the Tremec can experience vibration, difficult 1st gear/reverse engagement if the input shaft is being sideloaded from excessive runout, not to mention rapid front retainer bearing wear/failure,....sorry guy, but you have to check the bell run-out, and do what's needed to get it under .005 max,...I generally shoot for .0015-.002 max, it's tedious to dial in, but it has to be done, what bearing are you running in the crank register for the input shaft?....are there any counter weights bolted to the flywheel's outer perimeter on the engine side?
Mike
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Re: Thoughts on engine vibration
[Re: DAYCLONA]
#1470265
07/20/13 10:49 AM
07/20/13 10:49 AM
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Wisconsin
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
What bellhousing? Was it checked for being centered behind the crank?
It is a quick time and no it wasn't
This was something I found out you were suppose to do after I had it all installed in the car, would have been way easy to do on the stand. Figured I would take a chance an hope for the best. The fact that the vibration is their when the clutch is pushed in leads me to belive that more then the bell housing is the problem. But I will check it if I pull it apart to check the flywheel.
RuH rOe....The QuickTime bells are notorious for being way off in run-out, and the Tremec is so sensitive to big run-out values, most times the QuickTime needs to be machined to obtain the required run-out specs, as offset dowels are limited in range, the Tremec can experience vibration, difficult 1st gear/reverse engagement if the input shaft is being sideloaded from excessive runout, not to mention rapid front retainer bearing wear/failure,....sorry guy, but you have to check the bell run-out, and do what's needed to get it under .005 max,...I generally shoot for .0015-.002 max, it's tedious to dial in, but it has to be done, what bearing are you running in the crank register for the input shaft?....are there any counter weights bolted to the flywheel's outer perimeter on the engine side?
Mike
To answer JohnRR's question I have the complete motor tranny bolted together on a stand to put in the car. Did not mean on an engine stand.
I learnd of the checking runout after it was installed so I took a chance, this is my first time dealing with an aftermarket bell housing, never crossed my mind that they weren't made correctly but I should have known better. I will deffinetly dial it in if it needs to come apart.
As for the tranny all shifts and everthing are very good and no problems getting into gears. Sorry I don't know what the pilot bearing is, but it is a bearing and not a bushing.
No counter weights on the flywheel
I checked the plugs last night. The front 4 look really rich, back 4 slightly rich. Plugs are NGK BKR5E, and NAPA only had 5 so I replaced what I could. Going for drive today and will try and check in the moring again.
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Re: Thoughts on engine vibration
[Re: rapom]
#1470268
07/23/13 03:32 PM
07/23/13 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Sounds like an engine balance problem. Not sure if your engine is externally balanced or internally balanced. Externally balanced engines are harder to get right than an internally balanced one. On an externally balanced engine it makes a difference when its balanced and the dampener isn't bolted all the way on the crank. That's what my engine builder told me.
I have the same issue with a 360/406 stroker build but doesn't sound as bad as yours. Next thing I would try is a different dampener or a fluidampenr. If that don't work its time to tear down the engine.
It is internally balanced. It was built and dyno tunned so I would think the engine would be OK, but you never know. I wasn't their when it was run on the dyno.
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Re: Thoughts on engine vibration
[Re: rck850]
#1470272
07/24/13 10:22 AM
07/24/13 10:22 AM
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I chased around a vibration like yours on my Roadrunner. After all my trouble I decided to take the clutch fan off and drive around. To my surprise the vibration was gone. Just a thought since I never saw it mentioned.
I don't even have the crank pulley on, so no fan spinning.
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Re: Thoughts on engine vibration
[Re: Mopar_Mudder]
#1470273
07/24/13 11:19 AM
07/24/13 11:19 AM
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Joined: Feb 2012
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Morristown Tn.
71birdJ68
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Quote:
Yea I think at this point I am going to pull the tranny and verify that the flywheel is sitting staight on the crank and has no run out. If that all looks good I will have to take it to someone and get it on a scope and see what we can see. I would just feel better knowing it is not something like the flywheel before I take it to someone.
I have a really old Snap On scope made for points, don't think that will do me much good, heck I don't even know how to use it. 
Just so everyones on the same page, runout is for the bell housing not flywheel.
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Re: Thoughts on engine vibration
[Re: 71birdJ68]
#1470274
07/24/13 11:20 AM
07/24/13 11:20 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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JohnRR
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Quote:
Quote:
Yea I think at this point I am going to pull the tranny and verify that the flywheel is sitting staight on the crank and has no run out. If that all looks good I will have to take it to someone and get it on a scope and see what we can see. I would just feel better knowing it is not something like the flywheel before I take it to someone.
I have a really old Snap On scope made for points, don't think that will do me much good, heck I don't even know how to use it.
Just so everyones on the same page, runout is for the bell housing not flywheel.
what he said ...
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Re: Thoughts on engine vibration
[Re: Mopar_Mudder]
#1470275
07/24/13 11:40 AM
07/24/13 11:40 AM
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maryland
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Quote:
Vibration is thier with the clutch pushed in, it get worse with the clutch engauged and in neutral.
^^^ big hint right there ^^^
flywheel/pressure plate problem. could be a small burr or something between the flywheel & crank when it was bolted up.
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Re: Thoughts on engine vibration
[Re: 71birdJ68]
#1470276
07/24/13 01:08 PM
07/24/13 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
Yea I think at this point I am going to pull the tranny and verify that the flywheel is sitting staight on the crank and has no run out. If that all looks good I will have to take it to someone and get it on a scope and see what we can see. I would just feel better knowing it is not something like the flywheel before I take it to someone.
I have a really old Snap On scope made for points, don't think that will do me much good, heck I don't even know how to use it.
Just so everyones on the same page, runout is for the bell housing not flywheel.
You can have run out on the flywheel if something would be between the crank surface and back of flyweel. Or if the flywheel hole would be slighly smaller then the end of the crank and not going on all the way. I don't know if runout is the correct term, but you know what I mean. That is what I am going to be looking for first, plan to start pulling it apart tonight.
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Re: Thoughts on engine vibration
[Re: Mopar_Mudder]
#1470278
07/26/13 12:01 PM
07/26/13 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Got it all apart last night and went to use my dial indicatior and it took a dump so I have to get a new one tonight. My clutch doesn't look good to me though, take a look here:
Bad Clutch ?
I don't think that has anything to do with your vibration.
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Re: Thoughts on engine vibration
[Re: JohnRR]
#1470279
07/26/13 12:06 PM
07/26/13 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
Got it all apart last night and went to use my dial indicatior and it took a dump so I have to get a new one tonight. My clutch doesn't look good to me though, take a look here:
Bad Clutch ?
I don't think that has anything to do with your vibration.
No I don't either, that is why I put it in a different thread, was just surprised to see it. New dial indicator tonight so I can when the flywheel and bell housing.
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Re: Thoughts on engine vibration
[Re: Mopar_Mudder]
#1470280
07/26/13 04:02 PM
07/26/13 04:02 PM
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Columbia, CT
moper
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Where did the flywheel come from again?
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
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Re: Thoughts on engine vibration
[Re: Mopar_Mudder]
#1470281
07/26/13 04:07 PM
07/26/13 04:07 PM
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Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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Use the dial indicator to check the run out on the bellhousing register and , if you can, use it to check the mounting surface of the bellhousing in relationship to the flywheel face also  . I can visualize what I want you to check but I'm not sure I can put that vision into words, here goes. I'm assuming your using a magnetic base for the dial indicator so put the base on the flywheel with the indictor sticking up through the input shaft hole in the bellhousing and put the stem of the indicator on the trans. mounting surface of the bell(face?), turn the motor over while watchig the indicator for up or down movement, it should be zero  Lots of gremlins out thier  They love messing with us racers and hot rodders   Good luck, let us know what you find
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Thoughts on engine vibration
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#1470282
07/26/13 04:30 PM
07/26/13 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Use the dial indicator to check the run out on the bellhousing register and , if you can, use it to check the mounting surface of the bellhousing in relationship to the flywheel face also . I can visualize what I want you to check but I'm not sure I can put that vision into words, here goes. I'm assuming your using a magnetic base for the dial indicator so put the base on the flywheel with the indictor sticking up through the input shaft hole in the bellhousing and put the stem of the indicator on the trans. mounting surface of the bell(face?), turn the motor over while watchig the indicator for up or down movement, it should be zero Lots of gremlins out thier They love messing with us racers and hot rodders Good luck, let us know what you find
I am in the process of that now, would have been done last night but my dial indicator took a dump.
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Re: Thoughts on engine vibration
[Re: Mopar_Mudder]
#1470283
07/26/13 05:46 PM
07/26/13 05:46 PM
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Utah and Alaska
astjp2
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I had to put a .006 shim between an original aluminum bell and the block to get mine within .002 = parallel of the flywheel. I wound up using Robmc offset dowels to dial in the concentricity, if you loosen the bolts once you have it dialed in, you will need to redo the whole measuring process. AMHIK....Tim
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Re: Thoughts on engine vibration
[Re: astjp2]
#1470284
07/26/13 05:54 PM
07/26/13 05:54 PM
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Quote:
I had to put a .006 shim between an original aluminum bell and the block to get mine within .002 = parallel of the flywheel. I wound up using Robmc offset dowels to dial in the concentricity, if you loosen the bolts once you have it dialed in, you will need to redo the whole measuring process. AMHIK....Tim
That is one part I never figured out. I have heard multiple times that if you lossen the bell housing you have to do it again. Which makes sence because the dowels can not perfecty align the bell housing just do to the dowel having to be smaller then the hole to get it on. But yet you have to take the bell back off to get the clutch on, so how do you center it again which the clutch on
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Re: Thoughts on engine vibration
[Re: Mopar_Mudder]
#1470285
07/26/13 08:07 PM
07/26/13 08:07 PM
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JohnRR
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Quote:
Quote:
I had to put a .006 shim between an original aluminum bell and the block to get mine within .002 = parallel of the flywheel. I wound up using Robmc offset dowels to dial in the concentricity, if you loosen the bolts once you have it dialed in, you will need to redo the whole measuring process. AMHIK....Tim
That is one part I never figured out. I have heard multiple times that if you lossen the bell housing you have to do it again. Which makes sence because the dowels can not perfecty align the bell housing just do to the dowel having to be smaller then the hole to get it on. But yet you have to take the bell back off to get the clutch on, so how do you center it again which the clutch on
and you still haven't ... 
The original dowels are a slip fit so it will be close enough during a clutch change.
What the guy is talking about that you quoted is when you are dialing in the bell without the original dowels in the block. When you dial it in with the new dowels have the dowels in and lock them in place once you get intolerance runout and recheck after you lock them in. This is of course assuming you use the RobbMc dowels which are the ONLY dowels available that are the correct MOPAR size of .496 EVERYTHING else for sale by anyone , to dat that I know of , sell FORD .500 dowels as Mopar dowels, they are not.
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Re: Thoughts on engine vibration
[Re: JohnRR]
#1470286
07/26/13 10:22 PM
07/26/13 10:22 PM
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Well I didn't even look for any dowels when I put it together. I just made some quick on the lathe out of a 1/2" bar stock and turned them down until they fit, never gave it a second thought. But any way I just got done measuring stuff and this is what I got. The flywheel is with in .001 of being flat, square to the crank and round. The bell housing when checked for square to the block is within .005 Doing it my self so I was tuff to make sure the crank wasn't moving, I think the actual number may be lower then .005 Bell housing run out measurement I got: 12:00 .005 3:00 .001 6:00 .000 9:00 .003 So that is a run out of .0025, guess my home made dowels aren't to bad. So the good news is that I see nothing here that would cause a vibration. Bad news is I haven't found the issue yet 
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Re: Thoughts on engine vibration
[Re: Mopar_Mudder]
#1470289
08/05/13 01:09 PM
08/05/13 01:09 PM
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Wisconsin
Mopar_Mudder
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Just wanted to update that I got the flywheel back, it was out of balance. So much for made in the USA new parts. In the attached picture the hole drilled on the right is how it came from the factory. The four on the left is what they drilled to get it balanced. Then they mounted the pressure plate and had to grind some off of spots on that to get it balanced. Engine is smoother now more inline with what I think it should be. Still have drive line stuff to work out though. 
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I would take the clucth and flywheel to a good a balancing shop and have them spin and check it for balance, make sure and mark the pressure plate as it comes off of the flywheel so you can put it back in the same location for them to check it 
