Thoughts on engine vibration

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What bellhousing? Was it checked for being centered behind the crank?

It is a quick time and no it wasn't

This was something I found out you were suppose to do after I had it all installed in the car, would have been way easy to do on the stand. Figured I would take a chance an hope for the best. The fact that the vibration is their when the clutch is pushed in leads me to belive that more then the bell housing is the problem. But I will check it if I pull it apart to check the flywheel.

RuH rOe....The QuickTime bells are notorious for being way off in run-out, and the Tremec is so sensitive to big run-out values, most times the QuickTime needs to be machined to obtain the required run-out specs, as offset dowels are limited in range, the Tremec can experience vibration, difficult 1st gear/reverse engagement if the input shaft is being sideloaded from excessive runout, not to mention rapid front retainer bearing wear/failure,....sorry guy, but you have to check the bell run-out, and do what's needed to get it under .005 max,...I generally shoot for .0015-.002 max, it's tedious to dial in, but it has to be done, what bearing are you running in the crank register for the input shaft?....are there any counter weights bolted to the flywheel's outer perimeter on the engine side?

Mike

To answer JohnRR's question I have the complete motor tranny bolted together on a stand to put in the car. Did not mean on an engine stand.

I learnd of the checking runout after it was installed so I took a chance, this is my first time dealing with an aftermarket bell housing, never crossed my mind that they weren't made correctly but I should have known better. I will deffinetly dial it in if it needs to come apart.

As for the tranny all shifts and everthing are very good and no problems getting into gears. Sorry I don't know what the pilot bearing is, but it is a bearing and not a bushing.

No counter weights on the flywheel

I checked the plugs last night. The front 4 look really rich, back 4 slightly rich. Plugs are NGK BKR5E, and NAPA only had 5 so I replaced what I could. Going for drive today and will try and check in the moring again.

Posted By: Mopar_Mudder

Re: Thoughts on engine vibration - 07/23/13 01:04 AM

Wanted to update that I put on 80 miles with the new plugs and they look fine now.

Tried taking of all the belts and the crank pulley and still have vibration.

Posted By: rapom

Re: Thoughts on engine vibration - 07/23/13 07:18 PM

Sounds like an engine balance problem. Not sure if your engine is externally balanced or internally balanced. Externally balanced engines are harder to get right than an internally balanced one. On an externally balanced engine it makes a difference when its balanced and the dampener isn't bolted all the way on the crank. That's what my engine builder told me.

I have the same issue with a 360/406 stroker build but doesn't sound as bad as yours. Next thing I would try is a different dampener or a fluidampenr. If that don't work its time to tear down the engine.

Posted By: Mopar_Mudder

Re: Thoughts on engine vibration - 07/23/13 07:32 PM

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Sounds like an engine balance problem. Not sure if your engine is externally balanced or internally balanced. Externally balanced engines are harder to get right than an internally balanced one. On an externally balanced engine it makes a difference when its balanced and the dampener isn't bolted all the way on the crank. That's what my engine builder told me.

I have the same issue with a 360/406 stroker build but doesn't sound as bad as yours. Next thing I would try is a different dampener or a fluidampenr. If that don't work its time to tear down the engine.

It is internally balanced. It was built and dyno tunned so I would think the engine would be OK, but you never know. I wasn't their when it was run on the dyno.

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Thoughts on engine vibration - 07/23/13 08:49 PM

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I wasn't their when it was run on the dyno.

If it was a balance issue it would have been shaking on the dyno & the dyno guy would have informed the engine builder so if that's the case he (the eng builder) is aware of it. I'm not a stick guy but what Buildanother said, if the disc ain't moving then that would eliminate runout & I wouldn't think runout being off would cause that much shaking. With it being internally balanced I'd assume it has a neutral flywheel on it. Me I'd put it on a scope & confirm that the ign ain't breaking down at the offending RPM (& load) but from the descrip it sure sounds worse than ign & more like classic out of balance

Posted By: Mopar_Mudder

Re: Thoughts on engine vibration - 07/23/13 09:29 PM

Yea I think at this point I am going to pull the tranny and verify that the flywheel is sitting staight on the crank and has no run out. If that all looks good I will have to take it to someone and get it on a scope and see what we can see. I would just feel better knowing it is not something like the flywheel before I take it to someone.

I have a really old Snap On scope made for points, don't think that will do me much good, heck I don't even know how to use it.

Posted By: rck850

Re: Thoughts on engine vibration - 07/24/13 01:24 AM

I chased around a vibration like yours on my Roadrunner. After all my trouble I decided to take the clutch fan off and drive around. To my surprise the vibration was gone. Just a thought since I never saw it mentioned.

Posted By: Mopar_Mudder

Re: Thoughts on engine vibration - 07/24/13 02:22 PM

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I chased around a vibration like yours on my Roadrunner. After all my trouble I decided to take the clutch fan off and drive around. To my surprise the vibration was gone. Just a thought since I never saw it mentioned.

I don't even have the crank pulley on, so no fan spinning.

Posted By: 71birdJ68

Re: Thoughts on engine vibration - 07/24/13 03:19 PM

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Yea I think at this point I am going to pull the tranny and verify that the flywheel is sitting staight on the crank and has no run out. If that all looks good I will have to take it to someone and get it on a scope and see what we can see. I would just feel better knowing it is not something like the flywheel before I take it to someone.

I have a really old Snap On scope made for points, don't think that will do me much good, heck I don't even know how to use it.

Just so everyones on the same page, runout is for the bell housing not flywheel.

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Thoughts on engine vibration - 07/24/13 03:20 PM

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Yea I think at this point I am going to pull the tranny and verify that the flywheel is sitting staight on the crank and has no run out. If that all looks good I will have to take it to someone and get it on a scope and see what we can see. I would just feel better knowing it is not something like the flywheel before I take it to someone.

I have a really old Snap On scope made for points, don't think that will do me much good, heck I don't even know how to use it.

Just so everyones on the same page, runout is for the bell housing not flywheel.

what he said ...

Posted By: 74yellowduster

Re: Thoughts on engine vibration - 07/24/13 03:40 PM

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Vibration is thier with the clutch pushed in, it get worse with the clutch engauged and in neutral.

^^^ big hint right there ^^^

flywheel/pressure plate problem. could be a small burr or something between the flywheel & crank when it was bolted up.

Posted By: Mopar_Mudder

Re: Thoughts on engine vibration - 07/24/13 05:08 PM

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Yea I think at this point I am going to pull the tranny and verify that the flywheel is sitting staight on the crank and has no run out. If that all looks good I will have to take it to someone and get it on a scope and see what we can see. I would just feel better knowing it is not something like the flywheel before I take it to someone.

I have a really old Snap On scope made for points, don't think that will do me much good, heck I don't even know how to use it.

Just so everyones on the same page, runout is for the bell housing not flywheel.

You can have run out on the flywheel if something would be between the crank surface and back of flyweel. Or if the flywheel hole would be slighly smaller then the end of the crank and not going on all the way. I don't know if runout is the correct term, but you know what I mean. That is what I am going to be looking for first, plan to start pulling it apart tonight.

Posted By: Mopar_Mudder

Re: Thoughts on engine vibration - 07/26/13 03:29 PM

Got it all apart last night and went to use my dial indicatior and it took a dump so I have to get a new one tonight. My clutch doesn't look good to me though, take a look here:

Bad Clutch ?

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Thoughts on engine vibration - 07/26/13 04:01 PM

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Got it all apart last night and went to use my dial indicatior and it took a dump so I have to get a new one tonight. My clutch doesn't look good to me though, take a look here:

Bad Clutch ?

I don't think that has anything to do with your vibration.

Posted By: Mopar_Mudder

Re: Thoughts on engine vibration - 07/26/13 04:06 PM

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Got it all apart last night and went to use my dial indicatior and it took a dump so I have to get a new one tonight. My clutch doesn't look good to me though, take a look here:

Bad Clutch ?

I don't think that has anything to do with your vibration.

No I don't either, that is why I put it in a different thread, was just surprised to see it. New dial indicator tonight so I can when the flywheel and bell housing.

Posted By: moper

Re: Thoughts on engine vibration - 07/26/13 08:02 PM

Where did the flywheel come from again?

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Thoughts on engine vibration - 07/26/13 08:07 PM

Use the dial indicator to check the run out on the bellhousing register and , if you can, use it to check the mounting surface of the bellhousing in relationship to the flywheel face also

. I can visualize what I want you to check but I'm not sure I can put that vision into words, here goes. I'm assuming your using a magnetic base for the dial indicator so put the base on the flywheel with the indictor sticking up through the input shaft hole in the bellhousing and put the stem of the indicator on the trans. mounting surface of the bell(face?), turn the motor over while watchig the indicator for up or down movement, it should be zero

Lots of gremlins out thier

They love messing with us racers and hot rodders

Good luck, let us know what you find

Posted By: Mopar_Mudder

Re: Thoughts on engine vibration - 07/26/13 08:30 PM

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Use the dial indicator to check the run out on the bellhousing register and , if you can, use it to check the mounting surface of the bellhousing in relationship to the flywheel face also . I can visualize what I want you to check but I'm not sure I can put that vision into words, here goes. I'm assuming your using a magnetic base for the dial indicator so put the base on the flywheel with the indictor sticking up through the input shaft hole in the bellhousing and put the stem of the indicator on the trans. mounting surface of the bell(face?), turn the motor over while watchig the indicator for up or down movement, it should be zero Lots of gremlins out thier They love messing with us racers and hot rodders Good luck, let us know what you find

I am in the process of that now, would have been done last night but my dial indicator took a dump.

Posted By: astjp2

Re: Thoughts on engine vibration - 07/26/13 09:46 PM

I had to put a .006 shim between an original aluminum bell and the block to get mine within .002 = parallel of the flywheel. I wound up using Robmc offset dowels to dial in the concentricity, if you loosen the bolts once you have it dialed in, you will need to redo the whole measuring process. AMHIK....Tim

Posted By: Mopar_Mudder

Re: Thoughts on engine vibration - 07/26/13 09:54 PM

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I had to put a .006 shim between an original aluminum bell and the block to get mine within .002 = parallel of the flywheel. I wound up using Robmc offset dowels to dial in the concentricity, if you loosen the bolts once you have it dialed in, you will need to redo the whole measuring process. AMHIK....Tim

That is one part I never figured out. I have heard multiple times that if you lossen the bell housing you have to do it again. Which makes sence because the dowels can not perfecty align the bell housing just do to the dowel having to be smaller then the hole to get it on. But yet you have to take the bell back off to get the clutch on, so how do you center it again which the clutch on

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Thoughts on engine vibration - 07/27/13 12:07 AM

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I had to put a .006 shim between an original aluminum bell and the block to get mine within .002 = parallel of the flywheel. I wound up using Robmc offset dowels to dial in the concentricity, if you loosen the bolts once you have it dialed in, you will need to redo the whole measuring process. AMHIK....Tim

That is one part I never figured out. I have heard multiple times that if you lossen the bell housing you have to do it again. Which makes sence because the dowels can not perfecty align the bell housing just do to the dowel having to be smaller then the hole to get it on. But yet you have to take the bell back off to get the clutch on, so how do you center it again which the clutch on

and you still haven't ...

The original dowels are a slip fit so it will be close enough during a clutch change.

What the guy is talking about that you quoted is when you are dialing in the bell without the original dowels in the block. When you dial it in with the new dowels have the dowels in and lock them in place once you get intolerance runout and recheck after you lock them in. This is of course assuming you use the RobbMc dowels which are the ONLY dowels available that are the correct MOPAR size of .496 EVERYTHING else for sale by anyone , to dat that I know of , sell FORD .500 dowels as Mopar dowels, they are not.

Posted By: Mopar_Mudder

Re: Thoughts on engine vibration - 07/27/13 02:22 AM

Well I didn't even look for any dowels when I put it together. I just made some quick on the lathe out of a 1/2" bar stock and turned them down until they fit, never gave it a second thought. But any way I just got done measuring stuff and this is what I got.

The flywheel is with in .001 of being flat, square to the crank and round.

The bell housing when checked for square to the block is within .005 Doing it my self so I was tuff to make sure the crank wasn't moving, I think the actual number may be lower then .005

Bell housing run out measurement I got:
12:00 .005
3:00 .001
6:00 .000
9:00 .003

So that is a run out of .0025, guess my home made dowels aren't to bad.

So the good news is that I see nothing here that would cause a vibration. Bad news is I haven't found the issue yet

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Thoughts on engine vibration - 07/27/13 04:50 AM

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So the good news is that I see nothing here that would cause a vibration. Bad news is I haven't found the issue yet

That leaves the clucth and flywheel and the motor rotating assembly

I would take the clucth and flywheel to a good a balancing shop and have them spin and check it for balance, make sure and mark the pressure plate as it comes off of the flywheel so you can put it back in the same location for them to check it

They don't spin balance the clutch disc but take it along anyways in case they want to look at the contact pattern on the disc to the flywheel and pressure plate

If it isn't really bad then the motor is next

Posted By: Mopar_Mudder

Re: Thoughts on engine vibration - 07/27/13 04:29 PM

I have to stop at the local machine shop and see if they can spin balance just the flywheel/pressure plate combo.

It is far to late now to mark where it came off. But either way it shouldn't matter if the flywheel is balanced.

Posted By: Mopar_Mudder

Re: Thoughts on engine vibration - 08/05/13 05:09 PM

Just wanted to update that I got the flywheel back, it was out of balance. So much for made in the USA new parts.

In the attached picture the hole drilled on the right is how it came from the factory. The four on the left is what they drilled to get it balanced. Then they mounted the pressure plate and had to grind some off of spots on that to get it balanced.

Engine is smoother now more inline with what I think it should be. Still have drive line stuff to work out though.

Thoughts on engine vibration