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Re: UPDATE- 2nd outing with 408, mph still way low [Re: CompWedgeEngines] #1464592
07/14/13 12:00 AM
07/14/13 12:00 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,044
Victoria, Australia
Ian Offline
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Victoria, Australia
this is what i think is wrong is that cam /converter mix match the stall is to high and stalls pass peak talk , i run a glide with 1.76 first gear 4400 asp goes 1.55 60 ft at 3550 lbs not a idea set up but the pic tells the story and you are going to run gas this is what works for me 5300 8 inch vs 4400 9 inch stall my cam is 254/262 solid roller 11.4 comp

Last edited by Ian; 07/14/13 12:07 AM.
Re: UPDATE- 2nd outing with 408, mph still way low [Re: Quicktree] #1464593
07/14/13 01:04 PM
07/14/13 01:04 PM
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Charlotte, NC
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LSP Offline
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Quote:

You think it needs 260@ .050 with 10:1? In a heavy car?
Quote:



Sure, what tells you that won't work?

I'd put over 260 @ .050" in even a 9:1 408 ci motor.

Re: UPDATE- 2nd outing with 408, mph still way low [Re: LSP] #1464594
07/14/13 02:19 PM
07/14/13 02:19 PM
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Posts: 2,128
sweden
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sshemi Offline
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I have 242&245 dur in my 408 and it runs 95mph in the 1/8 in 3800lbs.

Re: UPDATE- 2nd outing with 408, mph still way low [Re: sshemi] #1464595
07/14/13 04:47 PM
07/14/13 04:47 PM
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Toronto
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mshred Offline OP
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Hey everyone,

Haven't been on here for a few days since I have had some other stuff and a wedding for a buddy going on. However, as always I appreciate the input from everyone and as you can see me and Brian have talked about my combo and what changes I should make at this point. I also did some tests to the car today to rule out some things.

I did the compression test- I had 180psi on almost all cylinders, with the lowest being 165psi on cylinder #4...however, that was a cylinder that when I gapped the rings I opened them up too much, and I confirmed this by spraying some oil in the cylinder and testing again, and the compression jumped right up. That should be within the 10% range of 180psi though, and also higher than the 170psi Brian said I should have (which I don't know if its a good thing or a bad thing).

I also re-checked my lash hot and it was way too loose since the cam called for between .016- .018" - it was around the .022" mark, and im not exactly sure how it got there since I set it to .018" last time...However, I took a long while this time to really ensure every single spring had .016" of lash, and it was tight for the feeler blade to get in and out. Im wondering if this was really hurting me at the track since I always thought tighter lash helped bottom end, which seems to be part of my problem as we have figured.

I also did a tach test to verify whether or not this tach is way outta wack when I am checking my rpms, and it is within 100 rpm lower at most when it is off (so even if I was crossing at 6200 on the tach, it is actually 6100 according to my ignition box with the tach test, so im assuming 100rpms shouldn't make a huge difference for slip calcs).

I also plotted my suspension and toe points, and it is out quite a bit (5/16 instead of the 1/16 it should be at most). I spoke with Chuck Lofgren at Lofgren auto specialties since I did some searching and he makes a kit to be able to mount the tie rod above the spindle instead of below it, but it would put my tie rod WAY close to my header, if not right into it. I am wondering if I should just jack the car up, set the toe to 1/16" at that height (for going down track at about 1.5" with me in it), and just see what happens from there?

As for the converter...this thing is still laying on itself for too long at 5000rpms, even on the street (yes, I drove it to the wedding so the church walls shook and spanked a few imports who wanted a peice along the way)...so im starting to wonder now for real if it needs to be loosened...but I will try the track outing first with my suspension worked out and my motor at its best. I just have to do a fuel flow test tomorrow when I get a container and then after that I will test it at the track once more. The engine seems to have checked out ok, and im hoping maybe it was the excessively loose lash that was somewhat hurting me a bit and will help with a mph or so.

A buddy of mine also has a chassis dyno and im thinking im going to try and schedule something with him for this upcoming saturday just to see where this thing is making power- I know an engine dyno is ideal, but I am just not in the position to pull the motor and have it dyno'ed right now.

As for Brian's cam choice, I do not doubt it one bit at all...My engine is only 10.5:1 on 94 pump gas with iron heads, and when he ground it, he wanted something that would make power but also not hurt shift recovery going down track (for the record it is 251/260 at .050 this cam). This is my 3rd cam from him, and every single one so far has performed flawlessly in my car and did EXACTLY what he said it would in terms of performance. I discussed with him possibly trying to RPM air gap since I still have it if the next outing nothing improves, but I am also thinking the converter might be too tight...All of this I will hopefully confirm soon when I get to the track next. I just have to take this one step at a time and try to rule out as much as I can each time im out at the track

Re: UPDATE- 2nd outing with 408, mph still way low [Re: dartman366] #1464596
07/14/13 04:51 PM
07/14/13 04:51 PM
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Toronto
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mshred Offline OP
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Quote:

Here ia where my tierods ended up after setting the bumpsteer my self,,took it to a local chassis builder and he made the final adjustments and the spacer's ended up just a hair shorter and he also added a safty washer under the tierod end in case of failure and told me that I actually had it pretty close, but not close enough for his standard's.




That looks good! But looking at my own suspension, it would seem like the only way to get this bumpsteer even half sorted out would be to put the tie rod ABOVE the spindle to get it flatter (although I think I will have some header issues if I do so). I should take a pic of what it looks like right now and post it for you guys so I can get some more input.

Re: UPDATE- 2nd outing with 408, mph still way low [Re: 408Dust] #1464597
07/14/13 04:54 PM
07/14/13 04:54 PM
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Toronto
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mshred Offline OP
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Quote:

You guys have him chasing the wrong rabbit, bump steer is not the reason why the car leaves like a rock.Make the car 60ft first then fix the other issues.




Oh I totally agree that the car 60's like a tank...That is a no brainer..My 60's last time out were worse than my first time out since I had installed new springs and with the strange d/a's out back adjustments are a little more complicated for a novice like me (and my backwards front shock adjustments didn't help either).

BUT, for a car to work good I think all aspects should be up to snuff, so even if the bumpsteer doesn't help it pick up, it sure as heck doesn't hurt to correct it and rule it out as a possible problem.

Re: UPDATE- 2nd outing with 408, mph still way low [Re: mshred] #1464598
07/14/13 06:00 PM
07/14/13 06:00 PM
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Glendale Az
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Darryls-Demon Offline
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Glendale Az
Could you send the link of the video to A1, maybe they could tell you if the converter is ok or not.

Re: UPDATE- 2nd outing with 408, mph still way low [Re: mshred] #1464599
07/14/13 06:01 PM
07/14/13 06:01 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
Dodgem Offline
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well the air pressure was/is real high today (fall High) and that affects compression readings some.

Then be nice to see it back at the track for a better handle on the
suspension!

My guess is go to the air gap then advance the cam a few degree's maybe once everything else was done those are two things you can put right back.

advancing the cam 3 degrees say and a air gap would both give more bottom end power probably make the TQ work better.

Good luck no matter what you do.




Re: UPDATE- 2nd outing with 408, mph still way low [Re: mshred] #1464600
07/14/13 06:41 PM
07/14/13 06:41 PM
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Charlotte, NC
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LSP Offline
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Yes, Good Luck

Re: UPDATE- 2nd outing with 408, mph still way low [Re: LSP] #1464601
07/14/13 06:57 PM
07/14/13 06:57 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,684
W. Kentucky
justinp61 Offline
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I'd still like to see him foot brake it at 2000 or so.

Re: UPDATE- 2nd outing with 408, mph still way low [Re: LSP] #1464602
07/14/13 07:20 PM
07/14/13 07:20 PM
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Posts: 5,486
SoCal
Brian Hafliger Offline
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SoCal
Quote:

Quote:

You think it needs 260@ .050 with 10:1? In a heavy car?
Quote:



Sure, what tells you that won't work?

I'd put over 260 @ .050" in even a 9:1 408 ci motor.




Experience!


Brian Hafliger
Re: UPDATE- 2nd outing with 408, mph still way low [Re: justinp61] #1464603
07/14/13 07:22 PM
07/14/13 07:22 PM
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Posts: 5,486
SoCal
Brian Hafliger Offline
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Quote:

I'd still like to see him foot brake it at 2000 or so.




He's going to do that first thing. First 3 runs will be footbraked.


Brian Hafliger
Re: UPDATE- 2nd outing with 408, mph still way low [Re: Ian] #1464604
07/14/13 07:30 PM
07/14/13 07:30 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,969
Chandler, AZ
Duner Offline
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OK I give... what was in the RH lane that went 660 mph at half-track? LOL

Re: UPDATE- 2nd outing with 408, mph still way low [Re: Brian Hafliger] #1464605
07/14/13 07:42 PM
07/14/13 07:42 PM
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Portage,michigan
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Based on my on track experiences that cam is way small and if used on other like combo's is likely a good reason once sorted they are running 121-122 instead of 124 ish as I suspect the OP car is probably capable of. I would bet good money that the 260/266 598/623 comp flat tappet I ran on my pump premium mildly ported Eddie headed 416 would show a nice gain over the cam currently in use once the converter is sorted out. I know what the improvement were after yanking out the 248/258 cam noted engine builder Hensley specced out that was a dog and never ran good.
I am far from smart, but have track tested a number of 4 inch combos at the track and have seen what works and what definately doesn't work, the cam currently in the Op car frankly isn't optimal, nor is the convertor.


69 Dart GTS A4 Silver All steel, flat factory hood, 3360race weight
418 BPE factory replacement headed stroker, 565 lift solid cam
Best so far, 10.40 @127 1/4
1.41 best 60 foot
6.60 at 103.90 1/8

Re: UPDATE- 2nd outing with 408, mph still way low [Re: mshred] #1464606
07/14/13 08:48 PM
07/14/13 08:48 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 13,247
Mt. Vernon, Ohio
dartman366 Offline
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Mt. Vernon, Ohio
Quote:

Quote:

Here ia where my tierods ended up after setting the bumpsteer my self,,took it to a local chassis builder and he made the final adjustments and the spacer's ended up just a hair shorter and he also added a safty washer under the tierod end in case of failure and told me that I actually had it pretty close, but not close enough for his standard's.




That looks good! But looking at my own suspension, it would seem like the only way to get this bumpsteer even half sorted out would be to put the tie rod ABOVE the spindle to get it flatter (although I think I will have some header issues if I do so). I should take a pic of what it looks like right now and post it for you guys so I can get some more input.


If yours is a mostly stock setup then I think putting the outer tie rod above the arm will throw you way off,basicly what you are wanting to do is have the lower controll arm and the tierod link swing in the same arc as close as you can and that USUALLY puts the outer tie rod lower than stock position.


Light travels faster than the speed of sound,,,this is why some people seem bright untill you hear them speak.
Re: UPDATE- 2nd outing with 408, mph still way low [Re: Duner] #1464607
07/14/13 09:07 PM
07/14/13 09:07 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,044
Victoria, Australia
Ian Offline
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Ian  Offline
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Victoria, Australia
Quote:

OK I give... what was in the RH lane that went 660 mph at half-track? LOL


lol good pick up


1.37 60 ft [email]6.0@113[/email] [email]9.57@141[/email] 408 glide 3550lbs
new video http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Xvq3ZObywQE
Re: UPDATE- 2nd outing with 408, mph still way low [Re: Ian] #1464608
07/14/13 11:17 PM
07/14/13 11:17 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,969
Chandler, AZ
Duner Offline
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That 3.10 second to the 1,000 mark is kind of a disappointment for that half-track mph... even if it is a world record!

Re: UPDATE- 2nd outing with 408, mph still way low [Re: Darryls-Demon] #1464609
07/14/13 11:55 PM
07/14/13 11:55 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,415
Toronto
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mshred Offline OP
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Quote:

Could you send the link of the video to A1, maybe they could tell you if the converter is ok or not.




Already have, and I posted what they said earlier in this thread...Basically they told me I need to get the car to 60' better before we can really say if its converter or not

Re: UPDATE- 2nd outing with 408, mph still way low [Re: dartman366] #1464610
07/14/13 11:56 PM
07/14/13 11:56 PM
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Toronto
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mshred Offline OP
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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Here ia where my tierods ended up after setting the bumpsteer my self,,took it to a local chassis builder and he made the final adjustments and the spacer's ended up just a hair shorter and he also added a safty washer under the tierod end in case of failure and told me that I actually had it pretty close, but not close enough for his standard's.




That looks good! But looking at my own suspension, it would seem like the only way to get this bumpsteer even half sorted out would be to put the tie rod ABOVE the spindle to get it flatter (although I think I will have some header issues if I do so). I should take a pic of what it looks like right now and post it for you guys so I can get some more input.


If yours is a mostly stock setup then I think putting the outer tie rod above the arm will throw you way off,basicly what you are wanting to do is have the lower controll arm and the tierod link swing in the same arc as close as you can and that USUALLY puts the outer tie rod lower than stock position.




Really? I thought it would be the reverse...I gotta look more into this toe thing and try to understand more about how it works. The only aftermarket suspension piece that I have upfront besides shocks are RMS tubular upper control arms.

Re: UPDATE- 2nd outing with 408, mph still way low [Re: Brian Hafliger] #1464611
07/14/13 11:57 PM
07/14/13 11:57 PM
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Toronto
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mshred Offline OP
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Quote:

Quote:

I'd still like to see him foot brake it at 2000 or so.




He's going to do that first thing. First 3 runs will be footbraked.




Yup, I am going to try footbraking this thing as well just to see what it does

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