Re: A/F with different ratios of ethanol in the gas
[Re: babarracuda]
#1440412
05/22/13 10:47 AM
05/22/13 10:47 AM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,396
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,396
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
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Quote:
I run 91 pump gas. My meter reads 12.8 in high gear. I read somewhere that it should be a little richer like 12.3 or 12.4. Does anyone have a chart of the different ratios of ethnol in the gas and what should be wide open stoich? I hope Cab Burge chimes in
12.5 to 12.7....Even at 12.7 it might be a touch lean. I had my efi set at 12.9 from the previous non E10 fuel and couldn't figure out where all my power went. Dropped it to 12.6, and its back! This is for E10, E15 would need to be richer yet...
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Re: A/F with different ratios of ethanol in the gas
[Re: babarracuda]
#1440413
05/22/13 10:54 AM
05/22/13 10:54 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
I run 91 pump gas. My meter reads 12.8 in high gear. I read somewhere that it should be a little richer like 12.3 or 12.4. Does anyone have a chart of the different ratios of ethnol in the gas and what should be wide open stoich? I hope Cab Burge chimes in
If your talking at WOT then you dont care what that
number is... go for the fastest MPH then once you find
that point write that number down... thats what you
can go back to if you change anything... cruise is
the hardest point to set... idle I dont even use a
A/F ratio number... just make it idle nice
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Re: A/F with different ratios of ethanol in the gas
[Re: babarracuda]
#1440415
05/22/13 11:16 AM
05/22/13 11:16 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
I pretty much bunged up so reaching over the fender is hard. I'll change it to richer before I go next time and see if it runs faster. I like to go out a couple of times a year and play. At 71 with lots of surgeries and meds, racing is not realistic. I was at MATS this year and didn't look until the last run and it was 13.8 A/F. Think I could have run faster. I was shocked that I made 2 rounds. Just time trials from now on.
I have a chart somewhere on this puter and I'll see
if I can find it... I know that a couple of others
have it also... but 13.8 is lean even with gas(by
about 1 point)
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Re: A/F with different ratios of ethanol in the gas
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1440417
05/22/13 12:30 PM
05/22/13 12:30 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,396
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,396
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
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Quote:
Quote:
I run 91 pump gas. My meter reads 12.8 in high gear. I read somewhere that it should be a little richer like 12.3 or 12.4. Does anyone have a chart of the different ratios of ethnol in the gas and what should be wide open stoich? I hope Cab Burge chimes in
If your talking at WOT then you dont care what that
number is... go for the fastest MPH then once you find
that point write that number down... thats what you
can go back to if you change anything... cruise is
the hardest point to set... idle I dont even use a
A/F ratio number... just make it idle nice
Yes. This would be at WOT, and a starting point...MPH will tell you what it really wants.
Mine I had set at 12.9 for a long time, and then realized why it had fallen off, and 12.6 seems to be what it wants now, it also liked 12.7, so both are in the range mine was happy. Obviously with pump crap, the E10 is not a true number either...
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Re: A/F with different ratios of ethanol in the gas
[Re: Blusmbl]
#1440422
05/22/13 04:36 PM
05/22/13 04:36 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Quote:
Here's a chart I use:
The supercharged column is a little misleading as that isn't a lambda equivalent anymore, but that's decent for targets.
ANY of them are just that... target numbers... EACH
ENGINE wants different... play to find out
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Re: A/F with different ratios of ethanol in the gas
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1440423
05/22/13 04:44 PM
05/22/13 04:44 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,864
Pattison Texas
CSK
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,864
Pattison Texas
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this is if your gauge is set to read on gasoline
The Basics of Air Fuel Ratio
What is lambda, and the difference between narrow band and wide band 02 sensors?
Contributed By: Enginebasics.com
Air Fuel Ratio Wideband Narrowband Gauge Sensor Bosch Tuning
One the most important aspects of the combustion motor is the air to fuel ratio in the cylinder. Like all things that explode, having the proper amount of combustible fuel to the amount of air to sustain the burn is important. Having lots of air but no fuel will cause the combustion to burn very rapidly and hot, while having lots of fuel, but no air will cause the mixture to burn very cool and slowly. Having an overly gross amount of either fuel or air will cause the combustion to not even occur at all.
What is Lambda?
Lambda is scale that relates the air to fuel ratio of ANY fuel. 1.0 is stoic for every fuel. (the chemically perfect ratio of air to fuel for a complete burn). However, stoic is different for every fuel. Some fuels may need 14.7 lbs of air some may need 6 lbs of air for a complete burn. Lambda 1.0 is always the perfect ratio for the fuel in use.
Some tuners argue that it is better to read air to fuel ratio’s in lambda since it will be accurate with any fuel. To be fair though, most aftermarket gauges will read lambda and convert that number to an a/f ratio for gasoline. If the user then knows the stoic, lean, and rich ratio’s for gasoline, he can apply those numbers to any fuel used and it won’t matter.
What I mean is that if you are running 14.7 (stoic) on a gasoline A/F gauge and you then convert to alcohol ( or E85 ), 14.7 will still be stoic on the gasoline gauge. This is because the gauge is going to read a stoic lambda reading of 1.0 for any fuel, and the gauge is going to output that number as 14.7 on you’re A/F gauge even though we know the true ratio for alcohol is 7.1-9.1.
Many times I have then seen people try and richen the cars tuning map to get down to that A/F value, not realizing that they are already at a stoic burn if the gauge set up for gasoline reads 14.7.
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI
512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim
2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
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Re: A/F with different ratios of ethanol in the gas
[Re: CSK]
#1440424
05/22/13 04:52 PM
05/22/13 04:52 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,396
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,396
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
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Quote:
this is if your gauge is set to read on gasoline
The Basics of Air Fuel Ratio
What is lambda, and the difference between narrow band and wide band 02 sensors?
Contributed By: Enginebasics.com
Air Fuel Ratio Wideband Narrowband Gauge Sensor Bosch Tuning
One the most important aspects of the combustion motor is the air to fuel ratio in the cylinder. Like all things that explode, having the proper amount of combustible fuel to the amount of air to sustain the burn is important. Having lots of air but no fuel will cause the combustion to burn very rapidly and hot, while having lots of fuel, but no air will cause the mixture to burn very cool and slowly. Having an overly gross amount of either fuel or air will cause the combustion to not even occur at all.
What is Lambda?
Lambda is scale that relates the air to fuel ratio of ANY fuel. 1.0 is stoic for every fuel. (the chemically perfect ratio of air to fuel for a complete burn). However, stoic is different for every fuel. Some fuels may need 14.7 lbs of air some may need 6 lbs of air for a complete burn. Lambda 1.0 is always the perfect ratio for the fuel in use.
Some tuners argue that it is better to read air to fuel ratio’s in lambda since it will be accurate with any fuel. To be fair though, most aftermarket gauges will read lambda and convert that number to an a/f ratio for gasoline. If the user then knows the stoic, lean, and rich ratio’s for gasoline, he can apply those numbers to any fuel used and it won’t matter.
What I mean is that if you are running 14.7 (stoic) on a gasoline A/F gauge and you then convert to alcohol ( or E85 ), 14.7 will still be stoic on the gasoline gauge. This is because the gauge is going to read a stoic lambda reading of 1.0 for any fuel, and the gauge is going to output that number as 14.7 on you’re A/F gauge even though we know the true ratio for alcohol is 7.1-9.1.
Many times I have then seen people try and richen the cars tuning map to get down to that A/F value, not realizing that they are already at a stoic burn if the gauge set up for gasoline reads 14.7.
Please don't quote theory in the race section...I may shoot the messenger...
I don't ever want to hear or see that BS number again. We have had guys at the track soo hung up on the numbers they read about, they have killed their engines making it hit those numbers...Please use the other chart by Mopar Rich or some of the baseline starting points others have discussed. Testing at the track will get you where you need to be.
Last edited by Dragula; 05/22/13 04:58 PM.
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Re: A/F with different ratios of ethanol in the gas
[Re: Dragula]
#1440425
05/22/13 04:58 PM
05/22/13 04:58 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,864
Pattison Texas
CSK
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,864
Pattison Texas
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1st off i was not saying to make it run at 14.7!!!!!!
if you read what it says,if your gauge is set up for gasoline & on gas it runs at 12.8.when running ethanol 12.8 would be correct,point is don't make your wide band that is set up for gas read 7.0 to 1
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI
512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim
2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
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Re: A/F with different ratios of ethanol in the gas
[Re: CSK]
#1440426
05/22/13 05:01 PM
05/22/13 05:01 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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I happen to like the standard GAS readings and I have used Lambda but to me the gas reading is wider with more increments of movement(but being I'm older and I started on the gas readings)... both are just a value to read the A/F ratio... but you need to know what your reading.. IF you see single digit its a lambda (as in a 1.0... instead if a 10.0 or greater)
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Re: A/F with different ratios of ethanol in the gas
[Re: Blusmbl]
#1440427
05/22/13 05:44 PM
05/22/13 05:44 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,938
Sonora CA
Mopar_Rich
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,938
Sonora CA
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Quote:
Quote:
Here's a chart I use:
The supercharged column is a little misleading as that isn't a lambda equivalent anymore, but that's decent for targets.
Yeah, I know, but it's just something I worked up. The Lambda numbers are fine for the NA variations.
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