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4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here...UPDATE #1299705 09/08/12 02:06 PM 09/08/12 02:06 PM
Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 454 Ashville, Manitoba, Canada superbeeman69 OP super street
superbeeman69 OP super street Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 454 Ashville, Manitoba, Canada	I'm helping a friend in the garage with his 70 hemi coronet rt....18spline 833 of course. Clutch goes in and gears operate fine with the engine NOT running. With the engine running, it grinds going into all gears and won't engage the clutch. From underneath, all the rods are free and the bearing seems to push the clutch all the way. The original pedals are in the car and are worn a bit...could that be an issue? Also is this the correct rod or should it be longer? The clutch pedal just doesn't seem to feel right to me. Any ideas? We've thought of the fork, linkage rods, input shaft and crank end but these are all correct. Last edited by superbeeman69; 09/08/12 03:19 PM. 1970 FM3 Coronet 440, 1971 FJ6 Dude D100

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... [Re: superbeeman69] #1299706 09/08/12 02:11 PM 09/08/12 02:11 PM
Joined: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,682 Philadelphia R radar top fuel
radar top fuel R Joined: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,682 Philadelphia	Open the inspection cover and check to see if its disengaging Oops no cover in pic sorry Last edited by radar; 09/08/12 02:12 PM.

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... [Re: superbeeman69] #1299707 09/08/12 02:16 PM 09/08/12 02:16 PM
Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 18,157 Mass DAYCLONA I Live Here
DAYCLONA I Live Here Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 18,157 Mass	First set/check the air-gap, the disc clearance when the clutch is fully depressed, if the car is running a stock 3 finger Borg/Beck style pressure plate, the clearance should be about .080...next up, set up/align the shifter levers/stops

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... [Re: superbeeman69] #1299708 09/08/12 02:18 PM 09/08/12 02:18 PM
Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 862 Iowa State fan kilroy super stock
kilroy super stock Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 862 Iowa State fan	Quick checks, is the fork correctly engaging the t/o bearing (its easy to only get one finger of the fork in the t/o bearing), check to make sure on of the zbar arms hasnt broken free of shaft, make sure clutch pedal pushrod isnt bent. Also that clutch rod picture is WAY OUT of adjustment, it looks like its way to long, which SHOULD allow you to disengage the clutch but either keep the t/o riding on the plate levers, which is bad, and also stop the clutch from ENGAGING fully causing a slip on high torque situations. SO if its still not disengaging the clutch with adjusted like that it means he has the wrong clutch rod or some other issue. If the gears are grinding going in, not to state it to obviously, but that means its not disengage enough. Let me ask this, if you can SAFELY, start it in gear with the clutch held down. DOES the car move or does it have the clutch disengaged? Last edited by kilroy; 09/08/12 02:19 PM.

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... [Re: kilroy] #1299709 09/08/12 02:24 PM 09/08/12 02:24 PM
Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 454 Ashville, Manitoba, Canada superbeeman69 OP super street
superbeeman69 OP super street Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 454 Ashville, Manitoba, Canada	Thanks guys. Wrong clutch pushrod. 5in instead of 7in. I took the rod off and almost took off a finger with the Z bar. Damn! Was really hoping to get some seat time in it today. I'll order one for him on Monday and spend the day making one out of some threaded rod and the 5in piece so he can make his car show tomorrow lol thanks again guys! 1970 FM3 Coronet 440, 1971 FJ6 Dude D100

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... [Re: superbeeman69] #1299710 09/08/12 02:36 PM 09/08/12 02:36 PM
Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 454 Ashville, Manitoba, Canada superbeeman69 OP super street
superbeeman69 OP super street Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 454 Ashville, Manitoba, Canada	Let this be a lesson not to trust everything you buy in a bag that says BB 4 speed parts and then restore em and use em lol make sure theyre the correct parts! It frustrates everyone involved! 1970 FM3 Coronet 440, 1971 FJ6 Dude D100

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... [Re: superbeeman69] #1299711 09/08/12 03:25 PM 09/08/12 03:25 PM
Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 454 Ashville, Manitoba, Canada superbeeman69 OP super street
superbeeman69 OP super street Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 454 Ashville, Manitoba, Canada	Still at this thing! Aside from the clutch pushrod issue which I made a new one out of rod and the old 5in piece, the clutch pedal moves perfect! Much crisper and firmer but it still grinds while running and trying to get it in gear. The clutch is not disengaging properly/all the way. It has a mcloud clutch and pressure plate. PN 360513. Any ideas? Looks to me like something be it the plate, TO bearing, or input shaft has a length issue. Like something is too short. Clutch/air gap is at least .080, but this is between the discs not clutch to plate. Z bar attached properly. Any help is appreciated! Last edited by superbeeman69; 09/08/12 03:34 PM. 1970 FM3 Coronet 440, 1971 FJ6 Dude D100

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... [Re: superbeeman69] #1299712 09/08/12 03:38 PM 09/08/12 03:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 5,138 East Aurora (Buffalo) NY RoadRunner master
RoadRunner master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 5,138 East Aurora (Buffalo) NY	Grab a flash light and double chack that the clutch fork is properly engaged to the throwout bearing housing. It should be resting on the pads with the spring clips holding it in place. Sometimes they slip part way off or get caught up on the spring clip. The reason I say this is that the fork boot looks funny on the clutch fork. Mine is pretty centered. That one looks like its pushed aganst the side. Things will still work, just not very well. 68 Road Runner (383/4speed, post car w/decor pkg) - Major Project 69 Road Runner w/472 Hemi & 4 speed. 70 Challenger R/T SE EF8 w/ V9J, U - A32 - Major Project 2023 Ford Mach 1

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... [Re: RoadRunner] #1299713 09/08/12 04:21 PM 09/08/12 04:21 PM
Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 454 Ashville, Manitoba, Canada superbeeman69 OP super street
superbeeman69 OP super street Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 454 Ashville, Manitoba, Canada	Quote: Grab a flash light and double chack that the clutch fork is properly engaged to the throwout bearing housing. It should be resting on the pads with the spring clips holding it in place. Sometimes they slip part way off or get caught up on the spring clip. The reason I say this is that the fork boot looks funny on the clutch fork. Mine is pretty centered. That one looks like its pushed aganst the side. Things will still work, just not very well. Yep the fork is touching both fingers of the TO bearing. I agree the boot looks stressed. It's an aftermarket boot as doesn't fit the opening in the bell housing properly either. I've adjusted the clutch rod so that there is no play in the fork to TO bearing and its solved my play issue in the pedal but still doesn't disengage the clutch enough. Even thought of the pedal being bent or carpet piling up under the pedal but that's not it. 1970 FM3 Coronet 440, 1971 FJ6 Dude D100

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... [Re: superbeeman69] #1299714 09/08/12 06:55 PM 09/08/12 06:55 PM
Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 14,889 up yours Supercuda About to go away
Supercuda About to go away Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 14,889 up yours	wrong Z bar? Not enough swing in the clutch rod portion? They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... [Re: Supercuda] #1299715 09/08/12 07:11 PM 09/08/12 07:11 PM
Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 454 Ashville, Manitoba, Canada superbeeman69 OP super street
superbeeman69 OP super street Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 454 Ashville, Manitoba, Canada	Well I made a homemade 7in clutch pushrod and it doesn't seem to matter what adjustments I make, it doesn't change the grinding issue. Only pedal to floor function and feel. The clutch itself still stays engaged to a degree when the clutch pedal is all the way down. The only time it won't lurch or move is when the trans is actually in neutral. I wonder about the Z bar but don't know how different they all are. The width of an A body one would be much smaller that a B and E one, unless there are more for different engines like there are input shafts, I'd imagine. Are theyre any parts in this setup that could be reasonably/accidentally installed backwards? 1970 FM3 Coronet 440, 1971 FJ6 Dude D100

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... [Re: superbeeman69] #1299716 09/08/12 07:25 PM 09/08/12 07:25 PM
Joined: May 2004 Posts: 5,123 Warrenton, VA RoadRunnerJD master
RoadRunnerJD master Joined: May 2004 Posts: 5,123 Warrenton, VA	There is a way to adjust the fingers on your pressure plate but will be difficult to do in the car. There is a screw and a thin nut on the top of the cover for each finger. These are adjusters. I check the pressure plate adjustment to see if the edge of a 7/16 bolt head fits snuggly between the inside edge of the pressure plate cover and the back of the pressure plate finger and to see if they are even...do this with the clutch and pressure plate bolted to the flywheel. After you adjust the nut,if you find that you have to, you need to repunch the threads so it does not back off. The trick is using the edge of the bolt head as a gauge. If the fingers are not adjusted properly, they won't push in far enough to release the clutch disc no matter how long your clutch rod is. Any way you look at it, you have to have the proper air gap when your clutch is disengaged. Anyone else ever done this? Last edited by RoadRunnerJD; 09/08/12 09:58 PM.

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... [Re: RoadRunnerJD] #1299717 09/08/12 10:14 PM 09/08/12 10:14 PM
Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 18,678 Fresno, CA Jim_Lusk I Live Here
Jim_Lusk I Live Here Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 18,678 Fresno, CA	Make sure you are not binding in the pilot bushing. You can do this by unbolting the pressure plate and turning the crank with a socket on the balancer bolt.

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... [Re: Jim_Lusk] #1299718 09/08/12 11:15 PM 09/08/12 11:15 PM
Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 454 Ashville, Manitoba, Canada superbeeman69 OP super street
superbeeman69 OP super street Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 454 Ashville, Manitoba, Canada	After reading this I spoke with the owner. He had no idea about the adjustment of the clutch forks. To be honest I didn't either or I wouldve suggested it. Now thinking about it the 2 forks I could see that the TO bearing was pushing weren't even. I never thought anything of it. Jim, I thought of that but was assured the crank was correct and so was the pilot bushing but since I've run into so many road blocks (I haven't mentioned the 2 days of getting it to run) I'm not sure what's what. 1970 FM3 Coronet 440, 1971 FJ6 Dude D100

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... [Re: superbeeman69] #1299719 09/08/12 11:22 PM 09/08/12 11:22 PM
Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 454 Ashville, Manitoba, Canada superbeeman69 OP super street
superbeeman69 OP super street Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 454 Ashville, Manitoba, Canada	This is the car. The only Canadian hemi coronet RT. More on that later once im happy with it. 1970 FM3 Coronet 440, 1971 FJ6 Dude D100

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... [Re: superbeeman69] #1299720 09/09/12 01:07 AM 09/09/12 01:07 AM
Joined: May 2004 Posts: 5,123 Warrenton, VA RoadRunnerJD master
RoadRunnerJD master Joined: May 2004 Posts: 5,123 Warrenton, VA	Keep in mind about 100% of the new pressure plates are adjusted evenly. Sometimes it is a problem if you don't buy a matching set because I think clutch thicknesses could vary?

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... [Re: superbeeman69] #1299721 09/09/12 04:26 PM 09/09/12 04:26 PM
Joined: Dec 2004 Posts: 10,555 Rittman Ohio fourgearsavoy I Live Here
fourgearsavoy I Live Here Joined: Dec 2004 Posts: 10,555 Rittman Ohio	Did you check the bellhousing alignment? It sounds like the clutch is NOT the problem this problem usually occurs when there is an alignment issue,bent disc hub,or pilot bearing binding Drag the trans back out and slide an actual 18 spline input shaft in there and see if it slides smooth with zero binding or drag.If that checks out OK then pull the bell back off and recheck the alignment with a dial indicator Gus 7371730-mysavoy.jpg (114 downloads) 64 Plymouth Savoy 493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow 5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box Dana 60

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... [Re: RoadRunnerJD] #1299722 09/09/12 05:13 PM 09/09/12 05:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 10,732 North Dakota 6PakBee I Live Here
6PakBee I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 10,732 North Dakota	Quote: Keep in mind about 100% of the new pressure plates are adjusted evenly. Sometimes it is a problem if you don't buy a matching set because I think clutch thicknesses could vary? First things first. Somewhere in the back of my mind I'm thinking you should have about 0.090" of pressure plate departure with the clutch fully depressed. Check with a feeler gauge. If you have this, then the problem lies elsewhere. If you do not, the suggestion above about a thicker disc is a good one. Years ago I ran into this and rather than readjust the levers (I was scared to), I shimmed the pivot bracket for the clutch fork to move the fork further forward. I don't know if that was the correct thing to do but as I recall it worked. "We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... [Re: 6PakBee] #1299723 09/09/12 05:25 PM 09/09/12 05:25 PM
Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 862 Iowa State fan kilroy super stock
kilroy super stock Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 862 Iowa State fan	Quote: First things first. Somewhere in the back of my mind I'm thinking you should have about 0.090" of pressure plate departure with the clutch fully depressed. Check with a feeler gauge. If you have this, then the problem lies elsewhere. If you do not, the suggestion above about a thicker disc is a good one. Years ago I ran into this and rather than readjust the levers (I was scared to), I shimmed the pivot bracket for the clutch fork to move the fork further forward. I don't know if that was the correct thing to do but as I recall it worked. OH MAN YOU JUST REMINDED ME OF SOMETHING. Check the pivot bracket!!!! The stock one is notoriously weak. I had to double gusset mine because it cracked and flexed!!! This will stop the clutch from getting full movement. Take it out and inspect it closely. Should be an easy removal/check thats free. 1973 Charger, former SE, former auto I'm not trying to be difficult, it comes naturally....

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... [Re: kilroy] #1299724 09/09/12 05:50 PM 09/09/12 05:50 PM
Joined: May 2004 Posts: 5,123 Warrenton, VA RoadRunnerJD master
RoadRunnerJD master Joined: May 2004 Posts: 5,123 Warrenton, VA	What would be the symptoms if the disk is in backwards?

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