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4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here...*UPDATE*

Posted By: superbeeman69

4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here...*UPDATE* - 09/08/12 06:06 PM

I'm helping a friend in the garage with his 70 hemi coronet rt....18spline 833 of course. Clutch goes in and gears operate fine with the engine NOT running. With the engine running, it grinds going into all gears and won't engage the clutch. From underneath, all the rods are free and the bearing seems to push the clutch all the way. The original pedals are in the car and are worn a bit...could that be an issue? Also is this the correct rod or should it be longer? The clutch pedal just doesn't seem to feel right to me. Any ideas? We've thought of the fork, linkage rods, input shaft and crank end but these are all correct.
Posted By: radar

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... - 09/08/12 06:11 PM

Open the inspection cover and check to see if its disengaging
Oops no cover in pic sorry
Posted By: DAYCLONA

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... - 09/08/12 06:16 PM

First set/check the air-gap, the disc clearance when the clutch is fully depressed, if the car is running a stock 3 finger Borg/Beck style pressure plate, the clearance should be about .080...next up, set up/align the shifter levers/stops
Posted By: kilroy

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... - 09/08/12 06:18 PM

Quick checks, is the fork correctly engaging the t/o bearing (its easy to only get one finger of the fork in the t/o bearing), check to make sure on of the zbar arms hasnt broken free of shaft, make sure clutch pedal pushrod isnt bent.

Also that clutch rod picture is WAY OUT of adjustment, it looks like its way to long, which SHOULD allow you to disengage the clutch but either keep the t/o riding on the plate levers, which is bad, and also stop the clutch from ENGAGING fully causing a slip on high torque situations. SO if its still not disengaging the clutch with adjusted like that it means he has the wrong clutch rod or some other issue.

If the gears are grinding going in, not to state it to obviously, but that means its not disengage enough.

Let me ask this, if you can SAFELY, start it in gear with the clutch held down. DOES the car move or does it have the clutch disengaged?
Posted By: superbeeman69

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... - 09/08/12 06:24 PM

Thanks guys. Wrong clutch pushrod. 5in instead of 7in. I took the rod off and almost took off a finger with the Z bar. Damn! Was really hoping to get some seat time in it today. I'll order one for him on Monday and spend the day making one out of some threaded rod and the 5in piece so he can make his car show tomorrow lol thanks again guys!
Posted By: superbeeman69

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... - 09/08/12 06:36 PM

Let this be a lesson not to trust everything you buy in a bag that says BB 4 speed parts and then restore em and use em lol make sure theyre the correct parts! It frustrates everyone involved!
Posted By: superbeeman69

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... - 09/08/12 07:25 PM

Still at this thing! Aside from the clutch pushrod issue which I made a new one out of rod and the old 5in piece, the clutch pedal moves perfect! Much crisper and firmer but it still grinds while running and trying to get it in gear. The clutch is not disengaging properly/all the way. It has a mcloud clutch and pressure plate. PN 360513. Any ideas? Looks to me like something be it the plate, TO bearing, or input shaft has a length issue. Like something is too short. Clutch/air gap is at least .080, but this is between the discs not clutch to plate. Z bar attached properly. Any help is appreciated!
Posted By: RoadRunner

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... - 09/08/12 07:38 PM

Grab a flash light and double chack that the clutch fork is properly engaged to the throwout bearing housing. It should be resting on the pads with the spring clips holding it in place. Sometimes they slip part way off or get caught up on the spring clip. The reason I say this is that the fork boot looks funny on the clutch fork. Mine is pretty centered. That one looks like its pushed aganst the side. Things will still work, just not very well.
Posted By: superbeeman69

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... - 09/08/12 08:21 PM

Quote:

Grab a flash light and double chack that the clutch fork is properly engaged to the throwout bearing housing. It should be resting on the pads with the spring clips holding it in place. Sometimes they slip part way off or get caught up on the spring clip. The reason I say this is that the fork boot looks funny on the clutch fork. Mine is pretty centered. That one looks like its pushed aganst the side. Things will still work, just not very well.



Yep the fork is touching both fingers of the TO bearing. I agree the boot looks stressed. It's an aftermarket boot as doesn't fit the opening in the bell housing properly either. I've adjusted the clutch rod so that there is no play in the fork to TO bearing and its solved my play issue in the pedal but still doesn't disengage the clutch enough. Even thought of the pedal being bent or carpet piling up under the pedal but that's not it.
Posted By: Supercuda

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... - 09/08/12 10:55 PM

wrong Z bar? Not enough swing in the clutch rod portion?
Posted By: superbeeman69

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... - 09/08/12 11:11 PM

Well I made a homemade 7in clutch pushrod and it doesn't seem to matter what adjustments I make, it doesn't change the grinding issue. Only pedal to floor function and feel. The clutch itself still stays engaged to a degree when the clutch pedal is all the way down. The only time it won't lurch or move is when the trans is actually in neutral. I wonder about the Z bar but don't know how different they all are. The width of an A body one would be much smaller that a B and E one, unless there are more for different engines like there are input shafts, I'd imagine. Are theyre any parts in this setup that could be reasonably/accidentally installed backwards?
Posted By: RoadRunnerJD

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... - 09/08/12 11:25 PM

There is a way to adjust the fingers on your pressure plate but will be difficult to do in the car. There is a screw and a thin nut on the top of the cover for each finger. These are adjusters. I check the pressure plate adjustment to see if the edge of a 7/16 bolt head fits snuggly between the inside edge of the pressure plate cover and the back of the pressure plate finger and to see if they are even...do this with the clutch and pressure plate bolted to the flywheel. After you adjust the nut,if you find that you have to, you need to repunch the threads so it does not back off. The trick is using the edge of the bolt head as a gauge. If the fingers are not adjusted properly, they won't push in far enough to release the clutch disc no matter how long your clutch rod is. Any way you look at it, you have to have the proper air gap when your clutch is disengaged. Anyone else ever done this?
Posted By: Jim_Lusk

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... - 09/09/12 02:14 AM

Make sure you are not binding in the pilot bushing. You can do this by unbolting the pressure plate and turning the crank with a socket on the balancer bolt.
Posted By: superbeeman69

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... - 09/09/12 03:15 AM

After reading this I spoke with the owner. He had no idea about the adjustment of the clutch forks. To be honest I didn't either or I wouldve suggested it. Now thinking about it the 2 forks I could see that the TO bearing was pushing weren't even. I never thought anything of it.

Jim, I thought of that but was assured the crank was correct and so was the pilot bushing but since I've run into so many road blocks (I haven't mentioned the 2 days of getting it to run) I'm not sure what's what.
Posted By: superbeeman69

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... - 09/09/12 03:22 AM

This is the car. The only Canadian hemi coronet RT. More on that later once im happy with it.

Posted By: RoadRunnerJD

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... - 09/09/12 05:07 AM

Keep in mind about 100% of the new pressure plates are adjusted evenly. Sometimes it is a problem if you don't buy a matching set because I think clutch thicknesses could vary?
Posted By: fourgearsavoy

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... - 09/09/12 08:26 PM

Did you check the bellhousing alignment? It sounds like the clutch is NOT the problem this problem usually occurs when there is an alignment issue,bent disc hub,or pilot bearing binding
Drag the trans back out and slide an actual 18 spline input shaft in there and see if it slides smooth with zero binding or drag.If that checks out OK then pull the bell back off and recheck the alignment with a dial indicator
Gus

Attached picture 7371730-mysavoy.jpg
Posted By: 6PakBee

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... - 09/09/12 09:13 PM

Quote:

Keep in mind about 100% of the new pressure plates are adjusted evenly. Sometimes it is a problem if you don't buy a matching set because I think clutch thicknesses could vary?



First things first. Somewhere in the back of my mind I'm thinking you should have about 0.090" of pressure plate departure with the clutch fully depressed. Check with a feeler gauge. If you have this, then the problem lies elsewhere. If you do not, the suggestion above about a thicker disc is a good one. Years ago I ran into this and rather than readjust the levers (I was scared to), I shimmed the pivot bracket for the clutch fork to move the fork further forward. I don't know if that was the correct thing to do but as I recall it worked.
Posted By: kilroy

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... - 09/09/12 09:25 PM

Quote:


First things first. Somewhere in the back of my mind I'm thinking you should have about 0.090" of pressure plate departure with the clutch fully depressed. Check with a feeler gauge. If you have this, then the problem lies elsewhere. If you do not, the suggestion above about a thicker disc is a good one. Years ago I ran into this and rather than readjust the levers (I was scared to), I shimmed the pivot bracket for the clutch fork to move the fork further forward. I don't know if that was the correct thing to do but as I recall it worked.



OH MAN YOU JUST REMINDED ME OF SOMETHING. Check the pivot bracket!!!! The stock one is notoriously weak. I had to double gusset mine because it cracked and flexed!!! This will stop the clutch from getting full movement. Take it out and inspect it closely. Should be an easy removal/check thats free.
Posted By: RoadRunnerJD

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... - 09/09/12 09:50 PM

What would be the symptoms if the disk is in backwards?
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... - 09/10/12 01:47 PM

Quote:

What would be the symptoms if the disk is in backwards?



Loud noise when you push the clutch pedal at a standstill, the springs on the center of the disc will be hitting the flywheel bolts
Posted By: dan9

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here...*UPDATE* - 09/10/12 04:24 PM

Have you checked to see if maybe the trans input shaft isn't pressed against the pilot bushing /bearing? Maybe the pilot isn't deated all the way. That would cause the condition also. oops i see that has already been suggested.
Posted By: superbeeman69

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... - 09/10/12 05:40 PM

Quote:

Quote:

What would be the symptoms if the disk is in backwards?



Loud noise when you push the clutch pedal at a standstill, the springs on the center of the disc will be hitting the flywheel bolts



Definitely installed correctly then. I'll pull the trans and clutch this weekend then an have a look. The owner called me on Sunday telling me the car is fine now. I told him not to touch a thing as I put the 5 inch pushrod back in for the time being. I don't know what is the issue now. The owner isn't a wrench by any means and I don't want to risk any damage. From what I can see with the inspection cover off, is that the 2 clutch fingers I can see are NOT even to the TO bearing and I can see about 1/2 inch of splines of the input shaft that are not seated to pilot bushing. Not sure if that is correct or not.
Posted By: CuriousYella70

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... - 09/10/12 05:47 PM

This may or may not help but i'll give it a shot anyways. My 70 Duster did the exact same thing over the last year. When the car was off, the 4 speed shifted gears smoothly and everything was great. Running however, it would grind going into gears and sometimes, the grinding was so bad that I couldn't get it into a gear unless I shut the car off and put it into gear, then restarted the car. We tried everything you could think of in terms of messing with the linkage, pulling the trans to check the output shaft, etc.

Finally, I came across an article of a guy with a similar issue and it turns out, it was the pilot bushing - it had a microscopic crack that we couldn't see with our eyes when it was installed in the car however, when we removed it, it was easy to detect. We have since replaced it with a new pilot bearing (NOT the original brass bushing) and since I've replaced it, i've driven it a good 100 miles and it works flawlessly. It sounds like you've checked a lot of the other stuff w/ no luck. Maybe worth a shot to check the pilot bushing?
Posted By: superbeeman69

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... - 09/10/12 06:15 PM

Quote:

This may or may not help but i'll give it a shot anyways. My 70 Duster did the exact same thing over the last year. When the car was off, the 4 speed shifted gears smoothly and everything was great. Running however, it would grind going into gears and sometimes, the grinding was so bad that I couldn't get it into a gear unless I shut the car off and put it into gear, then restarted the car. We tried everything you could think of in terms of messing with the linkage, pulling the trans to check the output shaft, etc.

Finally, I came across an article of a guy with a similar issue and it turns out, it was the pilot bushing - it had a microscopic crack that we couldn't see with our eyes when it was installed in the car however, when we removed it, it was easy to detect. We have since replaced it with a new pilot bearing (NOT the original brass bushing) and since I've replaced it, i've driven it a good 100 miles and it works flawlessly. It sounds like you've checked a lot of the other stuff w/ no luck. Maybe worth a shot to check the pilot bushing?



Definitely something I will check when I pull the trans. Thank you! Do you have a copy of this article? I'd like to think this isn't the issue as everything is new but like I've posted a lot of things have been wrong thus far
Posted By: CuriousYella70

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... - 09/10/12 06:50 PM

I'll try and dig it up for you. I definitely wouldn't trust the "everything is new" as my pilot bushing was "new" when I installed it and after only a year or so, it was cracked and caused all of my frustration. Definitely worth removing with a puller and taking a look at it. Plus, if you have it out, might be worth just installing the new roller bearing style instead of the old copper bushing, which are less likely to break under extreme pressure - especially from a HEMI!
Posted By: RoadRunnerJD

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... - 09/10/12 09:01 PM

I wonder why a cracked pilot bushing would cause this problem?
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... - 09/10/12 09:03 PM

Quote:

I wonder why a cracked pilot bushing would cause this problem?



same here .
Posted By: CuriousYella70

Re: 4 speed gurus! Could use some advice here... - 09/11/12 01:35 PM

I'm not saying it's his problem, just a thought to try looking at it. It was the problem in my case that caused all of the grinding with my 4 speed, especially when everything was hot. Just a thought
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