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Re: SMOG issue.... who knows any tricks? [Re: CSK] #1235306
05/19/12 12:42 PM
05/19/12 12:42 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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Quote:

the only way to make it pass is with a 4 gas system & make idle speed,mixture screw adjustments while noting changes




This is a new one. 4 Gas system?
I would think that with the 2500 rpm test beating the max limits by a long shot, that I should be able to get the idle numbers down. Maybe I'll visit the smog guys on Monday, or look for one of the few remaining "No pass, No pay" shops.

Re: SMOG issue.... who knows any tricks? [Re: Kern Dog] #1235307
05/19/12 05:02 PM
05/19/12 05:02 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 612
Nampa, ID
None2Slow Offline
mopar
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Nampa, ID
My brother is a tech in Sacramento. He is a test only shop. How many times have you worked on an engine trying to figure out a problem, and been wrong, only to find out it was something else after buying parts? Dead battery so you buy a new 1 only to find out that the alt was dead, or the regulator or the plug. There not there to fix your car, but to give you ideas. In fact, they are not really supposed to give you advise just for this reason. Ill give my brother a buzz real quick and see what he says to try, but he has always said that even some of the worst cars can pass with just a new cat. Only the cat may last 100 miles before dying due to problems that are causing the car to not pass to begin with.

Re: SMOG issue.... who knows any tricks? [Re: Kern Dog] #1235308
05/19/12 05:13 PM
05/19/12 05:13 PM
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Posts: 6,816
Alton, IL
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Dakota_Don Offline
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Alton, IL
try to fix it first.. but if you run it to about 1/4 tank and add 1-2 gal of methanol to the tank it will clean it up a bit, a lot a bit.. if you ad meth and its really runs bad add a tad more gas.. then after smog test fill er up

Re: SMOG issue.... who knows any tricks? [Re: Dakota_Don] #1235309
05/19/12 05:59 PM
05/19/12 05:59 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
Supercuda Offline
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Quote:

try to fix it first.. but if you run it to about 1/4 tank and add 1-2 gal of methanol to the tank it will clean it up a bit, a lot a bit.. if you ad meth and its really runs bad add a tad more gas.. then after smog test fill er up




You put that much Methanol in the tank and you can forget about a carb.

METHANOL is very corrosive.


They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
Re: SMOG issue.... who knows any tricks? [Re: Supercuda] #1235310
05/19/12 06:06 PM
05/19/12 06:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,816
Alton, IL
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Dakota_Don Offline
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Alton, IL
not really, ur only adding a lil bit.. done it many times before on carb engines.. u are only adding a gal or so mayb less then your fillng it up after u test.. but also like i said fix it first.. then as a last resort do the meth trick.. i know in some states you dont pass the smog u cant drive it then no ride to work.. so if all else fails use the meth... actully 1/2 gall will clean it up pretty good.. did this on my 74 van many yrs ago.. had carb issues.. no money and no job. had to do what i had to do..van is still runing same fuel system, no problems.. i did fix the carb tho, same fuel lines.. my local NAPA gave me this trick and the meth

Re: SMOG issue.... who knows any tricks? [Re: Kern Dog] #1235311
05/19/12 11:57 PM
05/19/12 11:57 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,445
So Cal
Sinitro Offline
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So Cal
As you troubleshoot it..
Find a friendly smog guy who will do a pretest..
If you keep going back and failing the car will be assigned as a Gross Polluter..

Just my $0.02..

Re: SMOG issue.... who knows any tricks? [Re: Sinitro] #1235312
05/20/12 12:10 AM
05/20/12 12:10 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,958
SW Fla.
CYACOP Offline
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SW Fla.
Move to a normal state. The truck is 34 years old .

Re: SMOG issue.... who knows any tricks? [Re: CYACOP] #1235313
05/20/12 12:35 AM
05/20/12 12:35 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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Kern Dog  Offline OP
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Granite Bay CA
Yeah... THAT was helpful.

Re: SMOG issue.... who knows any tricks? [Re: Kern Dog] #1235314
05/20/12 03:02 AM
05/20/12 03:02 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader Offline
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the frozen wastes...
Quote:

Yeah... THAT was helpful.




Yeah, but true. We're almost as bad as California and i really do hate it here...

First off, there are a few shops around here that will test you for $5-10 as often as you want. They dont have every single number you may need, but you can at least know when you're wasting your time. I've used one here several times for this exact reason, probably saved me a lot ov money.

Second, you didn't answer a question above: Did that truck come with cats? If it did, you're kinda pissing up a tree trying to make to pass without. Run a different exhaust for emission tests... on a truck it could literally be a 4ft long one-piece off the engine, into one big cat and out the side... on and off in minutes.

Third. Always crank up the idle to absolute max. Ours here is 1150RPM. Any more at idle and they wont test it. I see some guys having trouble idling in there at 600, which to me at least seems like unnecessarily hamstringing yourself. Put something in the tank, like many here have offered, along with 94 octane from the pump, and make damn sure ALL your older gas is out ov there, if you have any. Tune it lean. The 210 thermo is a neat trick, might have to try that one.

I'm definitely no expert on this stuff... but i've passed some serious junk through ours over the years. Some places wont test you (on the rollers at least) if you have studded tires. Hmmm...

I'll be dealing with my own emissions demons soon enough... trying to decide whether to install my fat stinky cam in the engine before i dump it in the car. It'll vastly save me grief installing and breaking in a cam in the car, only to replace them with emissions grief trying to 'tune' it through...

Re: SMOG issue.... who knows any tricks? [Re: Kern Dog] #1235315
05/20/12 07:29 PM
05/20/12 07:29 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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Kern Dog  Offline OP
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Granite Bay CA
The truck is equipped with the FEDERAL emissions package. No catalytic converters, no smog pump, EGR or thermostatic air cleaner. Pretty basic stuff.
I like the idea of running the additives and cranking up the idle some. Thanks for the suggestions!

Re: SMOG issue.... who knows any tricks? [Re: Dcuda69] #1235316
05/22/12 08:39 PM
05/22/12 08:39 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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Kern Dog  Offline OP
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Granite Bay CA
Quote:

300 max 1003 measured HC
3.00 max .16 measured CO
If this is right(I copied pasted)It almost looks like a lean miss. That IS what the smog guy thought it could be With no cats I would expect CO a little higher(maybe 1-2%)1000 HC is a misfire almost for sure. Absolutely sure there's no vac leak? I just bought a propane can to try. Tha carb cleaner runs out too fast! How about a cylinder power balance to make they're all firing? I know you said it runs smooth but 1000 HC is real high cats or no cats!! Just throwing ideas out.




A few more bits:
I asked about using methanol or rubbbing alcohol. He said that this trick only works in vehicles with catalytic converters, since it heats up the cats and they work harder. I can't legally weld in a pair of cats since the vehicle wasn't originally fitted with them.
Higher idle? He said that the upper limit is around 850. I'll try to get near there. I bought a set of plug wires, a cap and rotor and an intake valley pan. Hopefully tomorrow I'll have some good news.
Thanks to all for the suggestions! Greg

Re: SMOG issue....UPDATE !! IT just PASSED! [Re: Kern Dog] #1235317
05/23/12 03:24 PM
05/23/12 03:24 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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The Trail Duster JUST passed the smog test!
I think that after the 2nd test, it became clear that it may have had excessive idle HC numbers because the engine wasn't as warm as it was during the first test.

Test#1:

1:11 PM
Idle rpm 674
HC PPM 300 MAX
HC PPM 651 measured

2500 2585
HC PPM 350 MAX
HC PPM 36 measured

Test #2
9:20 AM
Idle RPM 862
HC PPM 300 MAX
HC PPM 1003 measured

The differences between the two tests? I replaced 2 vacuum lines, checked for leaks, replaced the carb base gasket, removed a vac line to the inop cruise control and raised the idle speed, PLUS the engine was a little cooler.
Yesterday I talked with the tech again and he suggested trying another carburetor or new plug wires. At home I DID replace the cap, rotor, plug wires AND add 1 1/2 gallons on E85. I raised the idle and backed out the idle mixture screws 1/2 turn. here are the numbers:

Idle 974
HC PPM 300 MAX,
HC PPM 28 measured !!
2500
HC PPM 350 MAX
HC PPM 49 measured!
FANTASTIC! As always though, I'm curious as to what made the difference. I remember the guideline : "Do only one change at a time."
In this case, I had to play it safe. I was lucky to find a NO PASS, NO PAY smog shop nearby. I suppose that I'll just keep a record of what I did for the next time. Thanks for the suggestions, Greg

Re: SMOG issue....UPDATE !! IT just PASSED! [Re: Kern Dog] #1235318
05/23/12 04:23 PM
05/23/12 04:23 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
RodStRace Offline
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Chino Valley
Post the CO numbers too. Sounds like it had a lean miss due to the idle mix screws being too far in, but without those numbers it's just a guess.

Re: SMOG issue....UPDATE !! IT just PASSED! [Re: RodStRace] #1235319
05/23/12 04:45 PM
05/23/12 04:45 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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Thanks... here we go:

Test # 1
CO %
Idle 674 rpm
3.00 MAX, .24 measured
2500 2585
3.50 MAX, .07 measured

Test # 2
CO %
Idle 862 rpm
3.00 Max, .16 measured
2500 2478
3.50 MAX, .05 measured

Test # 3
Idle 974 rpm
3.00 MAX, .55 measured
2500 2535
3.50 MAX, .08 measured

It runs smoother now than before. I'll probably lower the idle a little though. No dieseling on shutoff.

Re: SMOG issue....UPDATE !! IT just PASSED! [Re: Kern Dog] #1235320
05/23/12 05:57 PM
05/23/12 05:57 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 18,678
Fresno, CA
Jim_Lusk Offline
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Fresno, CA
I'm not a smog expert, BUT it is clear that when you raised the idle you went sufficiently off the idle circuit and into the cruise circuit, indicating that the problem is in the carb idle circuit and one of the big reasons that I sold my '79 late last year and replaced it with the Durango (let the computer adjust things properly - or at least better than I can). Nothing against carburetors, just against carbs that have to pass smog....and not a judgement on you for having that truck, just what works for me.

Re: SMOG issue....UPDATE !! IT just PASSED! [Re: Jim_Lusk] #1235321
05/23/12 06:12 PM
05/23/12 06:12 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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Granite Bay CA
Quote:

I'm not a smog expert, BUT it is clear that when you raised the idle you went sufficiently off the idle circuit and into the cruise circuit, indicating that the problem is in the carb idle circuit




I agree there. I also sprayed some carb cleaner down alongside the metering rod passages.
It may be safe to say that a quality rebuild of this carburetor would improve matters without having to resort to any tricks. I've rebuilt Holleys, but these Carter T-quads are a wee bit more complicated!

Re: SMOG issue....UPDATE !! IT just PASSED! [Re: Kern Dog] #1235322
05/23/12 09:15 PM
05/23/12 09:15 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 815
PNW
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Danan Offline
super stock
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PNW
When I lived in Sac and had to smog my 79 trailduster, I had a heck of a time with the original worn-out carb. I bushed the shafts, kitted it a dozen times, and still had to cross my fingers with it. I also had to replace my warped/cracked fuel bowl with several junkyard parts that were also warped over the years.

I finally bought a holley spreadbore smog legal carb and I got fantastic driveability and power (compared to the old carb) and never worried about passing smog again. Just an option for next time.

Re: SMOG issue....UPDATE !! IT just PASSED! [Re: Danan] #1235323
05/24/12 12:19 AM
05/24/12 12:19 AM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 8,087
Elk Grove, Calif.
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bigblock340power Offline
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Elk Grove, Calif.
Greg, what smog shop did you go to? I'll be looking at doing this next year. If it's close to you, that's fine. It'll give the truck a good long time/drive to heat up and be ready for the test. But mine's just a 360 2BBL.

Re: SMOG issue....UPDATE !! IT just PASSED! [Re: bigblock340power] #1235324
05/24/12 12:41 AM
05/24/12 12:41 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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Kern Dog  Offline OP
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Granite Bay CA
I went to "Tailpipes" on Greenback lane in Orangevale. I know of another No pass-No pay place on North Antelope in Roseville.
My truck with full time 4wd had to be tested off of the dynomometer. PLUS, I have Federal emissions. Far fewer things to go wrong.

Re: SMOG issue....UPDATE !! IT just PASSED! [Re: Kern Dog] #1235325
05/24/12 01:51 AM
05/24/12 01:51 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,168
Vancouver, WA
MoparMarq Offline
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Vancouver, WA
Congrats on the pass. Reminds me of the few years in the 80s that I had to hassle with getting the RR smogged when I lived in the Bay Area. Got the carb worked on, different air cleaner, aftermarket NOx kit (CA car originally), yada yada. What a goat rope! Finally got tired of doing it and just registered at my sister's house in Bend, OR to avoid the test altogether. Not worth it for a car that was driven MAYBE 1000 miles/year...

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