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so tired of this!! nerves shot
#1207051
03/31/12 05:52 PM
03/31/12 05:52 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,863
middle Tennessee
mopower440
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,863
middle Tennessee
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Did chrysler have the absolute weakest ignition systems ever built or what? My 440 dart has the stock electronic ignition. Sometimes it might sit 4 months at a time in the garage, and if it does sit that long, you can count on replacing the spark plugs to ever make it run again! There is such a super fine, fine line with the thing on not enough gas to fire it to too much to where the plugs saturate and wont ever run again with those plugs. If it sits a week i have to pump the crap out of the gas, crank it, pump some more, then it will fire and die, pump some more then it will fire and stay running. Let it sit for months and forget it! Not starting pump the gas and crank over and over till its flooded, then its new plug time and im tired of it. The ignition system has to be weak as crap on these things for it to be such a fine line between not enough gas and pumping and all the sudden too much and flooded. The carb is a demonsizzler built thermoquad with no choke. Making me want to just sell it cause im tired of this same ordeal when im ready to pull it out. The old 440 in the race car always fires right off no matter how long it sits. I have a lot of years and money in this thing but this problem has worn me down to where im tired of it and i hate that.. 
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Re: so tired of this!! nerves shot
[Re: Dougsmopars]
#1207053
03/31/12 06:17 PM
03/31/12 06:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,621
md
mopars4ever
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,621
md
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Re: so tired of this!! nerves shot
[Re: TMBOOTS]
#1207057
03/31/12 08:13 PM
03/31/12 08:13 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
ScottSmith_Harms
Mr Wizzard
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Mr Wizzard
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
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It's difficult to guess a starting issue without actually being there and/or having a ton more detail on the combo, settings, and (confirmed) condition of the individual componants. These days a hard/slow fireup start after a long time sitting is commonly due to the fuel evaporating from the carburator, it's todays garbage fuel, not the carbs fault. The easist fix is to install an electric fuel pump which will refill the carb with the key on and offer up fuel to the engine immediately. Also, you mentioned no choke, a cold carb will start hard as he!! without a choke, goes with the ricky racer package! I'd add a choke, Electronic is the most trouble free, a factory automatic choke is next, a manual choke can be the most difficult unless you are good at using one. If you go with an automatic choke be sure you understand how they work when the engine is cold and use the appropriate startup prodedure. I don't know which TQ you have, factory choke styles varied. Your ignition system is suspect until you can (absalutely) confirm that it's healthy. If the componants are all good Mopar factory electronic systems are fairly trouble free and plenty strong enough to light off a stock or warmed 440. 
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Re: so tired of this!! nerves shot
[Re: mopower440]
#1207059
03/31/12 09:04 PM
03/31/12 09:04 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 632
MD-USA
Dodgeguy101
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 632
MD-USA
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Quote:
you are correct in that the fuel will evaporate from the bowl after sitting for that long, thats why i normally give it a shot of starting fluid right off the bat, but it still doesnt want to fire off
Get rid of the starting fluid and put an electric pump on it. You keep using that starting fluid you will be fixing more than the carb.
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Re: so tired of this!! nerves shot
[Re: mopower440]
#1207060
03/31/12 10:31 PM
03/31/12 10:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,327
Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,327
Benton, IL.
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You will need an electric fuel pump or a different carb. AFBs, ABSs, and Thermoquads are infamous for dry bowls. The Holley style carbs don't seem to suffer the same problem.
Master, again and still
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Re: so tired of this!! nerves shot
[Re: mopower440]
#1207061
03/31/12 11:08 PM
03/31/12 11:08 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,020
Salem
Grizzly
Moparts Proctologist
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Moparts Proctologist
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,020
Salem
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Yep, sounds familiar.  Of all the Mopars I have the one with points starts the best. The rest, make you hang your head in shame. MSD has a digital e-curve distributor that retards the timing at "key-on start" so maybe that might help. There's also the gm HEI ballast resistor eliminator idea................ 
Mo' Farts
Moderated by "tbagger".
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Re: so tired of this!! nerves shot
[Re: mopower440]
#1207063
04/01/12 07:27 AM
04/01/12 07:27 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 404
Central New York
bfury
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 404
Central New York
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I have 2 cars with 440's, one has an original AVS no choke and the other had a Holley with no choke. Neither starts easy.The Holley was real touchy when starting, I had to get it just right or it flooded. I changed that out to a Carter Competition (same as Eddy) with electric choke I had around.One wire on the choke to ground the other to the switched power side of the ballast. Voila! Starts real easy and drive away after 30 seconds. A good choke will solve your problem.
No Stock
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Re: so tired of this!! nerves shot
[Re: abodyjoe]
#1207065
04/01/12 09:50 AM
04/01/12 09:50 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,653
Near Reading PA USA
pinkduster
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,653
Near Reading PA USA
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Quote:
i pump the gas a few times. start it. let it stall then start it up and keep it running for a minute or so and its fine.
 Exactly.
My 71 340 Duster has a Holley 650 DP with no choke, 73 340 Dart Sport, same thing, Holley 650 DP with no choke and the 71 RR 440 six pack with no choke. All work exactly as described above. Even the 71 Demon 340 with factory TQ and choke is pretty much the same way, but with more cranking after sitting a long time. Sometimes I just pour a little bit of gas down the carb to avoid all the cranking. But I've never had all the plug fouling like the OP has.
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Re: so tired of this!! nerves shot
[Re: mopower440]
#1207067
04/01/12 10:07 AM
04/01/12 10:07 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,357
central Florida
VL21
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,357
central Florida
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What brand of plugs are you using? I have in the past had more of a problem with gas fouling the plugs when using Champions, and maybe the heat range is wrong? Coil is good? Checked the spark? Like me, fat and blue? 
Last edited by VL21; 04/01/12 10:09 AM.
It takes gasoline to interest me.
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Re: so tired of this!! nerves shot
[Re: mopower440]
#1207070
04/01/12 10:56 AM
04/01/12 10:56 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
70Cuda383
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
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I'm thinking that your carb is leaking fuel down the intake, which then soaks the plugs.
but if it is ignition related, if everything is in good working order, then it should fire off without much trouble. just gotta find the "sweet spot"
I had a hard time starting my big block stroker, especially when it was cold out. couldn't tell if it wanted more or less gas.
After a lot of attempts, I finally figured it out. prime the fuel system via electric pump to ensure fuel in the carb. give it 3 pumps of the pedal if it was above 45 degrees, then hold it open just a hair while cranking (Holley 75HP, no choke) once fired, give it 1500 rpm for a few minutes to warm up, then slowly back it down to idle.
anything different than that, it would stall out and I'd have to start over
when it was below 45 degrees, I had to give it 5-6 pumps of gas to finally light off.
**Photobucket sucks**
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Re: so tired of this!! nerves shot
[Re: mopower440]
#1207073
04/01/12 01:34 PM
04/01/12 01:34 PM
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 159
Arizona
GreenGlow
member
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member
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 159
Arizona
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Quote:
sometimes when im cranking and cranking and it wont fire, when i turn the key off, it will hit, if i do that a few times it will sometimes clear the plugs enough to start.
I think you found your problem ......It sounds like your ignition switch has a problem.
I have 2 cars that don't have chokes one is a 512 with a Holley 950 HP with no choke horn and electric fuel pump. The other is a 440 with a Holley 800 DP it has a choke and choke horn but it's not hooked up and a mechanical fuel pump. Both start about the same way after sitting for months. On the electric fuel pump car I turn the key on let the carb fill up then pump the thorttle 5 times crank with my foot off the throttle let it start and die pump the throttle 5 more times and start it nurse it along by tapping the throttle just enough to keep it running for about 30 seconds then rev it up to about 2,000 rpm in little burps a few times and it will idle. I do the same thing with the mechanical fuel pump car but before I do anything I crank the engine for a couple seconds to get fuel in the carb.
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Re: so tired of this!! nerves shot
[Re: GreenGlow]
#1207074
04/01/12 02:14 PM
04/01/12 02:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
ScottSmith_Harms
Mr Wizzard
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Mr Wizzard
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
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Quote:
I have 2 cars that don't have chokes one is a 512 with a Holley 950 HP with no choke horn and electric fuel pump. The other is a 440 with a Holley 800 DP it has a choke and choke horn but it's not hooked up and a mechanical fuel pump. Both start about the same way after sitting for months.
While I will agree it sounds like his ignition switch is faulty, I'm still inclined to point the majority of the poor start up blame at his lack of a choke and fuel evaporation. Keep in mind that choke realated issues are going to be more pronounced in cooler climates (you being in Arizona likely helps you a ton).
*The May 2012 Hemmings Muclecar Magazine has an excellent column write up by Ray Bohacz explaining how chokes work, one of the best write ups I've seen in laymans terms.
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Re: so tired of this!! nerves shot
[Re: mopower440]
#1207075
04/01/12 10:17 PM
04/01/12 10:17 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,894
MI, usa
dvw
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,894
MI, usa
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Quote:
sometimes when im cranking and cranking and it wont fire, when i turn the key off, it will hit, if i do that a few times it will sometimes clear the plugs enough to start.
There is your problem. The wiring to the ballast resistor has 2 circuits. The blue wire which has 12 volts with the key in the run position,but in the crank position it has 0 volts. The brown wire has 12 volts in the crank position only. If you lose the brown wire feed you will have no voltage to the coil during cranking.
Doug
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Re: so tired of this!! nerves shot
[Re: ScottSmith_Harms]
#1207076
04/01/12 10:36 PM
04/01/12 10:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,084
Berlin, N.J.
abodyjoe
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,084
Berlin, N.J.
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Quote:
Quote:
I have 2 cars that don't have chokes one is a 512 with a Holley 950 HP with no choke horn and electric fuel pump. The other is a 440 with a Holley 800 DP it has a choke and choke horn but it's not hooked up and a mechanical fuel pump. Both start about the same way after sitting for months.
While I will agree it sounds like his ignition switch is faulty, I'm still inclined to point the majority of the poor start up blame at his lack of a choke and fuel evaporation. Keep in mind that choke realated issues are going to be more pronounced in cooler climates (you being in Arizona likely helps you a ton).
*The May 2012 Hemmings Muclecar Magazine has an excellent column write up by Ray Bohacz explaining how chokes work, one of the best write ups I've seen in laymans terms.
oh i don't know. i know my car starts a lot like his car ( see my about post) i'm in jersey and it gets down in the 20's and 30's most winters and my chokeless dart doesn't go fouling plugs even on the coldest of days. the OP has an issue somewhere and i doubt its all the lack of a choke. yes it may be harder to start then a car with a choke or a car with a fat carb but it shouldn't be fouling plugs like he says its doing. probably has multiple issues thats causing it. and we probably aren't getting all the details either..
It's better to keep your mouth shut and give the impression that you're stupid than to open it and remove all doubt. www.MoparMisfits.com
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Re: so tired of this!! nerves shot
[Re: 70Cuda383]
#1207078
04/02/12 12:29 AM
04/02/12 12:29 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,431
USA
SSAAHemiFan
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,431
USA
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Caught the part about the car firing while the key is released - verify power to the ignition while cranking and when key is released.
Had a B- Body that would only fire when key was released - found one of the wire terminals had backed out slightly in the connector body at the bulkhead connection
Dad was a journeyman electrician/ 30 yr CRC repairman. He found it in a few minutes. It's called "apparent power" - terminal is touching enough to show voltage on a meter but connection won't pass current.
Was pulling my hair out for days. I was 17 (24 years ago) but I won't forget the lesson - Thanks Dad.
Last edited by SSAAHemiFan; 04/02/12 12:33 AM.
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Re: so tired of this!! nerves shot
[Re: SSAAHemiFan]
#1207079
04/02/12 03:07 AM
04/02/12 03:07 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,576
Sarcoxie, MO, USA
MoPar Jamie
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,576
Sarcoxie, MO, USA
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Be sure to check the distributor connector. i had one slightly loose yesterday and it kept my 85 from starting even hot wired (I have a bad switch). Did the same, would kickback on turning the key off or disconnecting the coil power wire. also check the pickup coil.
- MoPar Jamie
1972 Fury III 4dr
1986 D-150 LWB Royal SE
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Re: so tired of this!! nerves shot
[Re: MoPar Jamie]
#1207080
04/02/12 08:47 AM
04/02/12 08:47 AM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 277
Palmyra, NY
63stabamatic
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 277
Palmyra, NY
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BB Mopars are tough to start after a couple days especially with todays fuel. You should really have a choke, makes life a lot easier.It's really tough to hit the sweet spot before flooding. As was said, verify power to the coil in start mode. You may want to also verify spark voltage with an engine analyzer, you may have a weak coil, a bad connection or other bad ignition parts.
I have a 440 in a 69 GTX with stock AVS carb and stock choke. The guy that restored my AVS gave me this procdure, works every time. If it's set more than 2 or 3 days; Without pressing gas pedal run starter for 10-15 seconds. Pump gas pedal 2-3 times, (this sets choke and gives accelerator pump a couple shots), it starts right up. Of course if you run it daily, before the gas evaporates, just set the choke with one push to the floor and it starts instantly.
Jim
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Re: so tired of this!! nerves shot
[Re: MoPar Jamie]
#1207081
04/02/12 09:18 PM
04/02/12 09:18 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,863
middle Tennessee
mopower440
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,863
middle Tennessee
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Quote:
Be sure to check the distributor connector. i had one slightly loose yesterday and it kept my 85 from starting even hot wired (I have a bad switch). Did the same, would kickback on turning the key off or disconnecting the coil power wire. also check the pickup coil.
Thats how this one does if its not 'too' flooded yet, just turn the key from run to off between cranking and it will kickback and apparently that burns enough off the plugs that it will start. Its too flooded this time and wont start, last time it did this i had to change the plugs.
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Re: so tired of this!! nerves shot
[Re: mopower440]
#1207083
04/06/12 08:45 AM
04/06/12 08:45 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
70Cuda383
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
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losing 5 volts just in the wiring is a problem.
if you jumper over the ballast, you should have full battery voltage.
sounds like you've got bad wires with really high resistance, bad terminals on the wires, or both.
Check out all of your wires before something catches fire. pay close attention to any that pass through the bulkhead connector on the firewall.
**Photobucket sucks**
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Re: so tired of this!! nerves shot
[Re: 70Cuda383]
#1207084
04/06/12 08:48 AM
04/06/12 08:48 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
70Cuda383
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
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Try this as a short term troubleshoot, unhook the coil from the stock positive feed, and hook it to a fresh clean wire thats run straight to the battery.
you'll have to hook it up when you go to start, and unhook it when you're done driving, but it will allow you to see what happens when you get full voltage to the coil.
I bet it fires up like you put nitro in it!
**Photobucket sucks**
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Re: so tired of this!! nerves shot
[Re: ScottSmith_Harms]
#1207085
04/06/12 09:22 AM
04/06/12 09:22 AM
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 159
Arizona
GreenGlow
member
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member
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 159
Arizona
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Quote:
Quote:
I have 2 cars that don't have chokes one is a 512 with a Holley 950 HP with no choke horn and electric fuel pump. The other is a 440 with a Holley 800 DP it has a choke and choke horn but it's not hooked up and a mechanical fuel pump. Both start about the same way after sitting for months.
While I will agree it sounds like his ignition switch is faulty, I'm still inclined to point the majority of the poor start up blame at his lack of a choke and fuel evaporation. Keep in mind that choke realated issues are going to be more pronounced in cooler climates (you being in Arizona likely helps you a ton).
My cars are in Boise Idaho. I live in Arizona but my toybox is in Boise.
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Re: so tired of this!! nerves shot
[Re: GreenGlow]
#1207086
04/06/12 10:26 AM
04/06/12 10:26 AM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 12,016
Finally a HUSKER again
Moparnut426
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 12,016
Finally a HUSKER again
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I had a Fuel pump issue with my Carter pump, if the car sat for longer than 2 weeks I would almost have to prime the system with fuel. Then I decited to try a Holley pump, That fixed it, Now the only time I have starting issues is if it sits for longer than 3 months, then it cranks for a few times, builds fuel PSI, and starts up. You may have a few different issues, Hard to tell without standing there and seeing for my self, but ya may have a bad switch, and a fuel pump thats gone south. Hope ya get it figured out. Oh and I run a holley 750 with out a choke and a proform main body, so its basically a race carb, and I dont have a lot of issues with it when cold.
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Re: so tired of this!! nerves shot
[Re: moparcyco]
#1207094
04/12/12 05:24 PM
04/12/12 05:24 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,696
enfield, CT
ViperDave
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,696
enfield, CT
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my 72 440 wagon is stock as stock can be other than a street demon carb with choke. Even after sitting over the winter, it will start on the 2nd try. Even now, it hasnt been start or even looked at in 2 weeks, Pedal to the floor twice, crank her up and it will start. it will idle like crap for about 15-20 seconds and then be smooth as a 440 can be.
Plugs in the car have about 15K miles on them and are 4 years old. havent pulled one since they went in.
67 Dart GT Vert 273/904
72 Town & Country 440/727
90 D350 reg cab dually cummins
15 Scat Pack Challenger
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Re: so tired of this!! nerves shot
[Re: ViperDave]
#1207095
04/29/12 07:09 PM
04/29/12 07:09 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,863
middle Tennessee
mopower440
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,863
middle Tennessee
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man, i hate to say but i think its time to part with this car, bad as i hate to, i just cant deal with it anymore. I let it sit a few weeks, calm my nerves down, i go out today and pull all the plugs, clean them off and get them good and hot with a lighter and try again, still no start, wont even try to hit. I can stick a plug in the end of the plug wire and its got a nice blue spark, and its definately got gas but it refuses to run regardless. I got enough to worry about with my health and all and dont need this stupid problem..wonder what a car that wont run for 'unknown reasons' is worth..?
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