Engine Builders / Machinists - Need 440+6 Intake Help!
#1193243
03/08/12 02:46 AM
03/08/12 02:46 AM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,213
Los Angeles, CA
Mobarge
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,213
Los Angeles, CA
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In the process of swapping over to a 440 Six Pack, and discovered the hard way that my 413 was apparently decked by my engine builder. So, as you can figure out, my intake manifold will not fit, since the intake manifold bolt holes will not line up with the threaded bolt holes in the heads.
See attached photo, and you will see what I mean.
With the valley pan tin and the two .030 intake gaskets in places on each side, the holes line up on one side, but are way off on the other (obviously, they are off either way, and when it's centered of course).
I lined up the driver's side of the bolt holes (as seen in the pics), and you can see how far off the passengers side is (see the red circle in the pic). This occurs on a brand new Edelbrock 440+6 intake manifold, and also a vintage Edelbrock 440+6 intake.
Visually, it seems to be off about 3/8" to 7/16" of an inch or so with one side lined up, give or take.
I know I have to machine the intake manifold flanges to take some material off the intake to get it to line up, but the question is, how much per side?
My very bad, non-engine builder / machinist math tells me if it's off by 3/8 of an inch on one side (with the opposite side lined up), it would be off by 3/16 of an inch per side. If that is correct, how much of each manifold flange would have to be taken off for the holes to line up properly?
Also, I assume the angle of the cut would have to match stock, correct?
Any advice on this? Thanks!
'71 SSP - SOLD!
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Re: Engine Builders / Machinists - Need 440+6 Intake Help!
[Re: AndyF]
#1193245
03/08/12 04:34 AM
03/08/12 04:34 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,291
Kent, Wa
340SHORTY
Truck Nut
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Truck Nut
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,291
Kent, Wa
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Most likely the machinist didnt do mutvh surfacing. dump the 2 .030 paper gaskets. they are to thick. the Felpro ones used to be real thin. they screwed the pooch when they came out with the thick ones.
I am truckless..
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Re: Engine Builders / Machinists - Need 440+6 Intake Help!
[Re: Mobarge]
#1193246
03/08/12 04:37 AM
03/08/12 04:37 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,999
s. e. pa.
calrobb2000
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,999
s. e. pa.
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hi just looking at the pic and it looks of front to rear to me ?? if so no machining is gona fix that , need a hole relocate ??? if i am wrong and it is side to side you can eliminate the .030 gaskets and just use the metal belly pan ! it will seal fine i have done it many times . use a Small 1/6 bead of silicone around the port area on both sides and allow it to cure over night. make sure pan and head are oil free! this will allow the intake to sit much further down in the valley so all holes line up ! what intake are you replacing ? 
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Re: Engine Builders / Machinists - Need 440+6 Intake Help!
[Re: 340SHORTY]
#1193247
03/08/12 09:51 AM
03/08/12 09:51 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
Most likely the machinist didnt do mutvh surfacing. dump the 2 .030 paper gaskets. they are to thick. the Felpro ones used to be real thin. they screwed the pooch when they came out with the thick ones.
what he said, before you dump money and start cutting stuf see if you can use one paper and pan. if it still doesn't fit try the pan only. Many people have used pan only for years.
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Re: Engine Builders / Machinists - Need 440+6 Intake Help!
[Re: calrobb2000]
#1193248
03/08/12 10:29 AM
03/08/12 10:29 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,012
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,012
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
hi
just looking at the pic and it looks of front to rear to me ??
if so no machining is gona fix that , need a hole relocate ???
if i am wrong and it is side to side you can eliminate the .030 gaskets and just use the metal belly pan !
it will seal fine i have done it many times .
use a Small 1/6 bead of silicone around the port area on both sides and allow it to cure over night. make sure pan and head are oil free!
this will allow the intake to sit much further down in the valley so all holes line up !
what intake are you replacing ?
^^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^^^ Looking at the picture it gives the appearance of up and down but the manifold edge tells me you have the picture rotated !!!!!!!!!
Are these blocks and heads new to you ?
If this really is a sideways misalignment you have more than a bolt hole issue to contend with ... PORT MISALIGNMENT ...... CHAMBER TO BORE and with a 413 that could mean intake valves hitting the edge of the bore ????
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Re: Engine Builders / Machinists - Need 440+6 Intake Help!
[Re: JohnRR]
#1193249
03/08/12 10:41 AM
03/08/12 10:41 AM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,008
Sweet Home Alabama
MRMOPAR622
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,008
Sweet Home Alabama
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I have seen this before on Mopars,chevys and fords and the ports would be lined up almost perfect.Take a flash light and look down your runners to see if they are lined up with the ports in the heads,if so take and open the holes in the intake up another drill bit size or two. I have also seen them and the runners and ports in the heads were off just a little 1/16th" or so and after tighting down the intake they would be almost perfect. Most of the time I prefer to slot the holes instead of drilling them better but either way works. Hope this will solve your problems.
"To Be The Man'You Have Got To Beat The Man"
"T/D and Pro-Bracket Racer"
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Re: Engine Builders / Machinists - Need 440+6 Intake Help!
[Re: lewtot184]
#1193252
03/08/12 06:06 PM
03/08/12 06:06 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
this is typical. been thru this a few times. the ch6b's come from edelbrock too wide. usually they will need .040 off each side to get close to a good alignment. also check the angles and look for a taper in the manifold (back narrower than the front), look for casting flaws, thin spots and even holes,  .
as I recall my brand new 440-6 wouldn't fit w/ paper, pan, paper. I just went w/ the pan and had zero issues.
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Re: Engine Builders / Machinists - Need 440+6 Intake Help!
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#1193253
03/08/12 07:34 PM
03/08/12 07:34 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,916
usa
lewtot184
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,916
usa
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Quote:
Quote:
this is typical. been thru this a few times. the ch6b's come from edelbrock too wide. usually they will need .040 off each side to get close to a good alignment. also check the angles and look for a taper in the manifold (back narrower than the front), look for casting flaws, thin spots and even holes, .
as I recall my brand new 440-6 wouldn't fit w/ paper, pan, paper. I just went w/ the pan and had zero issues.
of the four 6-pak intakes i've owned only one fit without a problem. this was an early 1970 intake. a dp6b i had was so bad i should have thrown it away. instead i blew time and money on it because i thought buying another would be just as bad or worse. i think edelbrock is just as big a junk vendor as some others in the business. they just get a free pass and lot of free ink.
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Re: Engine Builders / Machinists - Need 440+6 Intake Help!
[Re: JohnRR]
#1193254
03/08/12 07:40 PM
03/08/12 07:40 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,213
Los Angeles, CA
Mobarge
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,213
Los Angeles, CA
|
Quote:
Quote:
hi
just looking at the pic and it looks of front to rear to me ??
if so no machining is gona fix that , need a hole relocate ???
if i am wrong and it is side to side you can eliminate the .030 gaskets and just use the metal belly pan !
it will seal fine i have done it many times .
use a Small 1/6 bead of silicone around the port area on both sides and allow it to cure over night. make sure pan and head are oil free!
this will allow the intake to sit much further down in the valley so all holes line up !
what intake are you replacing ?
^^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^^^ Looking at the picture it gives the appearance of up and down but the manifold edge tells me you have the picture rotated !!!!!!!!!
Are these blocks and heads new to you ?
If this really is a sideways misalignment you have more than a bolt hole issue to contend with ... PORT MISALIGNMENT ...... CHAMBER TO BORE and with a 413 that could mean intake valves hitting the edge of the bore ????
The pics are of the last (4th) bolt hole closest to the firewall. The holes are directly opposite of each other, not on the same side.
Have had the 413 for 8 years now, previously an Edelbrock 440 Performer RPM manifold was on top. Ran great, with no leaks.
Will try to see how it lines up with no gaskets, valley pan only. If you guys are running with no gaskets without issues, then - assuming the holes line up - I feel better about doing the same. I've always run gaskets on previous intakes on different motors.
Will keep you posted. Thanks for the input.
'71 SSP - SOLD!
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Re: Engine Builders / Machinists - Need 440+6 Intake Help!
[Re: Mobarge]
#1193255
03/08/12 09:06 PM
03/08/12 09:06 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,012
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,012
U.S.S.A.
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
hi
just looking at the pic and it looks of front to rear to me ??
if so no machining is gona fix that , need a hole relocate ???
if i am wrong and it is side to side you can eliminate the .030 gaskets and just use the metal belly pan !
it will seal fine i have done it many times .
use a Small 1/6 bead of silicone around the port area on both sides and allow it to cure over night. make sure pan and head are oil free!
this will allow the intake to sit much further down in the valley so all holes line up !
what intake are you replacing ?
^^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^^^ Looking at the picture it gives the appearance of up and down but the manifold edge tells me you have the picture rotated !!!!!!!!!
Are these blocks and heads new to you ?
If this really is a sideways misalignment you have more than a bolt hole issue to contend with ... PORT MISALIGNMENT ...... CHAMBER TO BORE and with a 413 that could mean intake valves hitting the edge of the bore ????
The pics are of the last (4th) bolt hole closest to the firewall. The holes are directly opposite of each other, not on the same side.
Have had the 413 for 8 years now, previously an Edelbrock 440 Performer RPM manifold was on top. Ran great, with no leaks.
Will try to see how it lines up with no gaskets, valley pan only. If you guys are running with no gaskets without issues, then - assuming the holes line up - I feel better about doing the same. I've always run gaskets on previous intakes on different motors.
Will keep you posted. Thanks for the input.
So all you did was pull off the 4bbl and put on the 6pk ?
The TOP of the picture in the orientation above is closest to the firewall? If this is the case the problem is the intake is bolt holes are off on one side , you can sort of see it in the picture , the holes need to be dragged sideways if the orientation is as I think it is. I would be looking inside the intake at port alignment with a bore scope as the casting may be shifted ? Drag both holes sideways to split the difference ?
OR if this is a new intake send it back to the supplier and get another .
Last edited by JohnRR; 03/09/12 01:57 AM.
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Re: Engine Builders / Machinists - Need 440+6 Intake Help!
[Re: JohnRR]
#1193256
03/08/12 09:20 PM
03/08/12 09:20 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,314
Prospect, PA
BSB67
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,314
Prospect, PA
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
hi
just looking at the pic and it looks of front to rear to me ??
if so no machining is gona fix that , need a hole relocate ???
if i am wrong and it is side to side you can eliminate the .030 gaskets and just use the metal belly pan !
it will seal fine i have done it many times .
use a Small 1/6 bead of silicone around the port area on both sides and allow it to cure over night. make sure pan and head are oil free!
this will allow the intake to sit much further down in the valley so all holes line up !
what intake are you replacing ?
^^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^^^ Looking at the picture it gives the appearance of up and down but the manifold edge tells me you have the picture rotated !!!!!!!!!
Are these blocks and heads new to you ?
If this really is a sideways misalignment you have more than a bolt hole issue to contend with ... PORT MISALIGNMENT ...... CHAMBER TO BORE and with a 413 that could mean intake valves hitting the edge of the bore ????
The pics are of the last (4th) bolt hole closest to the firewall. The holes are directly opposite of each other, not on the same side.
Have had the 413 for 8 years now, previously an Edelbrock 440 Performer RPM manifold was on top. Ran great, with no leaks.
Will try to see how it lines up with no gaskets, valley pan only. If you guys are running with no gaskets without issues, then - assuming the holes line up - I feel better about doing the same. I've always run gaskets on previous intakes on different motors.
Will keep you posted. Thanks for the input.
So all you did was pull off the 4bbl and put on the 6pk ?
The TOP of the picture in the orientation above is closest to the firewall? If this is the case the problem is the intake is bolt holes are off on one side , you can sort of see it in the picture , the holes need to be dragged sideways if the orientation is as I think it is. I would be looking inside the intake at port alignment with a bore scope as the casting may be shifted ? Darg both holes sideways to split the difference ?
OR if this is a new intake send it back to the supplier and get another .
No. Firewall is to the left in the left picture, and to the right in the right picture.
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Re: Engine Builders / Machinists - Need 440+6 Intake Help!
[Re: BSB67]
#1193257
03/08/12 10:02 PM
03/08/12 10:02 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,213
Los Angeles, CA
Mobarge
OP
pro stock
|
OP
pro stock
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,213
Los Angeles, CA
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
hi
just looking at the pic and it looks of front to rear to me ??
if so no machining is gona fix that , need a hole relocate ???
if i am wrong and it is side to side you can eliminate the .030 gaskets and just use the metal belly pan !
it will seal fine i have done it many times .
use a Small 1/6 bead of silicone around the port area on both sides and allow it to cure over night. make sure pan and head are oil free!
this will allow the intake to sit much further down in the valley so all holes line up !
what intake are you replacing ?
^^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^^^ Looking at the picture it gives the appearance of up and down but the manifold edge tells me you have the picture rotated !!!!!!!!!
Are these blocks and heads new to you ?
If this really is a sideways misalignment you have more than a bolt hole issue to contend with ... PORT MISALIGNMENT ...... CHAMBER TO BORE and with a 413 that could mean intake valves hitting the edge of the bore ????
The pics are of the last (4th) bolt hole closest to the firewall. The holes are directly opposite of each other, not on the same side.
Have had the 413 for 8 years now, previously an Edelbrock 440 Performer RPM manifold was on top. Ran great, with no leaks.
Will try to see how it lines up with no gaskets, valley pan only. If you guys are running with no gaskets without issues, then - assuming the holes line up - I feel better about doing the same. I've always run gaskets on previous intakes on different motors.
Will keep you posted. Thanks for the input.
So all you did was pull off the 4bbl and put on the 6pk ?
The TOP of the picture in the orientation above is closest to the firewall? If this is the case the problem is the intake is bolt holes are off on one side , you can sort of see it in the picture , the holes need to be dragged sideways if the orientation is as I think it is. I would be looking inside the intake at port alignment with a bore scope as the casting may be shifted ? Darg both holes sideways to split the difference ?
OR if this is a new intake send it back to the supplier and get another .
No. Firewall is to the left in the left picture, and to the right in the right picture.
That is correct.
'71 SSP - SOLD!
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Re: Engine Builders / Machinists - Need 440+6 Intake Help!
[Re: Mobarge]
#1193258
03/09/12 02:09 AM
03/09/12 02:09 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,012
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,012
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
That is correct.
Ok you are right , I just went an looked at a manifold and the tombstone shape of the bolt boss is laying on it's side not up and down as I thought would be the proper way . 
Knowing this as someone else said remove at least a pair of paper gaskets , the mismatch will be less , see how much . If it's ok at that point and you want to run 4 paper gaskets member topside sells the paper gaskets half the thickness of the felpro ... If it's not ok pull the other papers , if it's ok then you either trim the intake or get the topside thinner gaskets and just run one on each side between the head and the valley pan and hope you can get the bolts in ...
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Re: Engine Builders / Machinists - Need 440+6 Intake Help!
[Re: JohnRR]
#1193259
03/09/12 03:29 AM
03/09/12 03:29 AM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,213
Los Angeles, CA
Mobarge
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,213
Los Angeles, CA
|
Problem solved - looks like those .030 Felpro gaskets were the issue. Pulled all four of them out, used the valley pan tin only, and the holes lined right up. I'm sure the .017 paper gaskets would work fine as well.
Thanks for the help guys. Going to bolt the thing down over the weekend.
'71 SSP - SOLD!
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Let us know what you find 
DO NOT use gasket maker silicone around the intake ports on the head sides 
Use Hylomar or some other good gasket sealer, NOT silicone 
