|
Re: Oil Accumulator
[Re: lakeeffect]
#1175251
02/09/12 07:18 AM
02/09/12 07:18 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,376
NORTHERN CA
HUSTLESTUFF
pro stock
|
pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,376
NORTHERN CA
|
On a friends drag car he uses the rear of the block where the sending unit is. He pre-oils the engine before start up. One thing I learned today from him thru Nedbals book was if you have an external pick up have a loop up from the pan to the pump. Mike
"Were in it to win it. Anything less will end up being..... A whole lot of fun doing!!" UNLAWFL
RIP UN
|
|
|
Re: Oil Accumulator
[Re: Mattax]
#1175253
02/09/12 10:45 AM
02/09/12 10:45 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
Mattax
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
|
Drill and tapp the block is OK. Depends how you like to assemble and dissasemble. With the bolt on, you can preassemble and 'just' bolt it up. With the tapped block, you must wrench the NPT's in place and can not rotate position. However then there are no gaskets or potential sealing issues.
I think its possible to use the bolt threads as they are. The threads are standard and so its not too hard to find a steel adapter from that to an AN. Check earls if its not an aeorqip item, 'cause I bought one years ago. However, in which case you have to use a gasket seal since its not a sealing thread. The MP/DC engine book as the tapping details. You'll also see mods for junky cast adapter, but the right thing is just not to use it.
Last edited by Mattax; 02/09/12 01:30 PM.
|
|
|
Re: Oil Accumulator
[Re: lakeeffect]
#1175254
02/09/12 11:50 AM
02/09/12 11:50 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,688
Marlboro, NY, USA
Rick_Ehrenberg
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,688
Marlboro, NY, USA
|
I use to have all kinds of fancy plumbing, cooler, etc.
Then the factory guys told me to just run Mobil 1 and stop worrying so much about oil temps. They also clued me in that lower oil levels reduces temps (a whole bunch!)
So now I just run a simple rubber Aeroquip hose from the ign-on-activated solenoid vale to the oil sender area. Simple. Cheap. Easy. Works. Proven.
About all I do "different" is be sure the engine is at fast idle for a few seconds before turning off the key. Come back 6 mos. later, and the accumulator gauge is still at 60-70 PSI. Turn the key on for 2-3 secs before cranking.
Never loses OP in corners anymore, either.
Rick
|
|
|
Re: Oil Accumulator
[Re: Rick_Ehrenberg]
#1175257
02/09/12 02:40 PM
02/09/12 02:40 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 157
hawaii
pauly v.100
member
|
member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 157
hawaii
|
Quote:
I use to have all kinds of fancy plumbing, cooler, etc.
Then the factory guys told me to just run Mobil 1 and stop worrying so much about oil temps. They also clued me in that lower oil levels reduces temps (a whole bunch!)
So now I just run a simple rubber Aeroquip hose from the ign-on-activated solenoid vale to the oil sender area. Simple. Cheap. Easy. Works. Proven.
About all I do "different" is be sure the engine is at fast idle for a few seconds before turning off the key. Come back 6 mos. later, and the accumulator gauge is still at 60-70 PSI. Turn the key on for 2-3 secs before cranking.
Never loses OP in corners anymore, either.
Rick
Where did you relocate the sending unit to? -Pauly
|
|
|
Re: Oil Accumulator
[Re: pauly v.100]
#1175258
02/09/12 11:48 PM
02/09/12 11:48 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 108
so ca
mikesiron
member
|
member
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 108
so ca
|
I have fought high oil temp for 11yrs. I have found several things that help. The most important thing is flow to the bearings. and getting the oil back into the pan. Good oil pan is a must 8qt min. Bearing clearance min rods.0025 mains.0025-.003 Mobil 1 with ZDDP added. HV pump with 1/2npt pick-up and pick up size 6sq in min. Crank scraper or wiper. http://www.crank-scrapers.com/ Windage tray. Lite wt oil= flow, Heavy oil= restance to flow= high presure= high oil temp. I am by no means an expert but I have learned this over 11yrs of circle track racing.
|
|
|
Re: Oil Accumulator
[Re: Mattax]
#1175259
02/09/12 11:55 PM
02/09/12 11:55 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,328
St. Louis, MO
mopardamo
pro stock
|
pro stock
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,328
St. Louis, MO
|
Quote:
The drawback of using the the pressure sending unit location is volume. You know as well as anyone here that both volume and pressure are needed to keep those bearings from kissing. Can enough flow through that little npt fitting to cover the loss? A minor burp, probably. 15 seconds too long in a skid pad, maybe not.
Hello,
I think that the accumulator would not work for any extended makeup period. The size of the tank would need to be enormous if it was to make up for an uncovered pickup for anything near 15 seconds. If the line size is say is 1/2" diameter any of the tanks that I have seen would be out of oil in a few seconds. I bet they could not last 4 seconds. A smaller ID line/fitting would give less volume but provide more pressure for a longer period of time. So in my mind the idea of the accumulators is to help for very short periods of time. If its a crutch to make up for a bigger oiling problem then I think the engine is doomed anyway. I really like the idea for startup myself. :two cents:
Damon
|
|
|
Re: Oil Accumulator
[Re: mopardamo]
#1175262
02/10/12 12:14 AM
02/10/12 12:14 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,664
IN
ahy
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,664
IN
|
Quote:
Quote:
The drawback of using the the pressure sending unit location is volume. You know as well as anyone here that both volume and pressure are needed to keep those bearings from kissing. Can enough flow through that little npt fitting to cover the loss? A minor burp, probably. 15 seconds too long in a skid pad, maybe not.
Hello,
I think that the accumulator would not work for any extended makeup period. The size of the tank would need to be enormous if it was to make up for an uncovered pickup for anything near 15 seconds. If the line size is say is 1/2" diameter any of the tanks that I have seen would be out of oil in a few seconds. I bet they could not last 4 seconds. A smaller ID line/fitting would give less volume but provide more pressure for a longer period of time. So in my mind the idea of the accumulators is to help for very short periods of time. If its a crutch to make up for a bigger oiling problem then I think the engine is doomed anyway. I really like the idea for startup myself. :two cents:
Damon
Fair point. I'll add that when the acumulator is dumping oil in during an "uncovered pickup" event, the extra oil has a real good chance of covering the pickup again pretty fast and solving the problem.
|
|
|
Re: Oil Accumulator
[Re: ahy]
#1175263
02/10/12 03:02 AM
02/10/12 03:02 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 157
hawaii
pauly v.100
member
|
member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 157
hawaii
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The drawback of using the the pressure sending unit location is volume. You know as well as anyone here that both volume and pressure are needed to keep those bearings from kissing. Can enough flow through that little npt fitting to cover the loss? A minor burp, probably. 15 seconds too long in a skid pad, maybe not.
Hello,
I think that the accumulator would not work for any extended makeup period. The size of the tank would need to be enormous if it was to make up for an uncovered pickup for anything near 15 seconds. If the line size is say is 1/2" diameter any of the tanks that I have seen would be out of oil in a few seconds. I bet they could not last 4 seconds. A smaller ID line/fitting would give less volume but provide more pressure for a longer period of time. So in my mind the idea of the accumulators is to help for very short periods of time. If its a crutch to make up for a bigger oiling problem then I think the engine is doomed anyway. I really like the idea for startup myself. :two cents:
Damon
Fair point. I'll add that when the acumulator is dumping oil in during an "uncovered pickup" event, the extra oil has a real good chance of covering the pickup again pretty fast and solving the problem.
especially in a smaller or otherwise not "enormous" sump.
Thats exactly why i got one; cheap insurance for a mild crate motor.
|
|
|
Re: Oil Accumulator
[Re: mopardamo]
#1175265
02/10/12 10:18 AM
02/10/12 10:18 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
Mattax
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
|
Quote:
I think that the accumulator would not work for any extended makeup period.
You've got part of the concept right but are missing the final determinants. The pressure the accumulator can maintain and for how long depends on the bearing clearances, rpm, and of course oil viscosity (which is temperature related) and type of failure. At high rpm with big clearances and oil a lot of volume will be needed quickly. At lower rpm with tight clearances the not as much flow will be needed to keep enough pressure to prevent more damage.
Think about it this way, using a small fitting will lose pressure inside the accumulator over a longer period of time as you point out. But the pressure in the accumulator is not helping the engine if the restriction is the fitting rather than the bearings.
Also recognize people are tossing out 3 different types of situations here. In autocross, the rpms go up and down from off-idle to redline for 50-70 seconds. In circle track, the rpms are running up and down between 3500-7000 for an extended period of time. Road course is also extended although with a different pattern of engine use and for performance driving, and many race classes, the engines are not really the same as a circle track race engine.
All this said, the basic advice for an accumulator setup has been outlined here by those who have been using them.
1. Good connections that won't restrict the flow for the uses intended.
2. Protect the hose(s) from excessive heat.
3. Partially check (restrict) the fill (eg electic valve with pressure sensor)
OP wasn't setting up an oil cooler and so my assumption is that's not needed for the intended application.
Last edited by Mattax; 02/10/12 02:57 PM.
|
|
|
Re: Oil Accumulator
[Re: Mattax]
#1175267
02/19/12 08:25 PM
02/19/12 08:25 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 8
Erie PA
lakeeffect
OP
member
|
OP
member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 8
Erie PA
|
Quote:
Where is the valve?
I should mention a few of us have decided that the electric valve with the pressure delay really helps insure the oil goes to the engine first after the unit has dumped. I've toyed with ways to address this mechanically (since I'm using a manual valve) but haven't implemented yet.
The big problem when running hoses from that area of the block is heat. The rubber inside the AN hose would eventually get brittle and oil would seep from everywhere. The hose would make a crinkling sound when it was taken off and flexed by hand. Aeroquip - good stuff - wasn't the fault of the mfc.
Headers were worse than manifolds but it happened with them too. That engine already ran hot oil temps this made it worse.
That said, currently I've got a single AN-line tapped into the right angle adapter with no problems. The hose is covered in aeroquip's insulated firesleeve.
Minor issue you may find with that layout is that when the accusump dumps, it may push back the rubber check in the oil filter. It looks to me like you're using a canton/mecca filter if so, no issue. Canton likes you to use a check valve, and in some instances that might gain a bit more oil going where it will do the most good.
PS. A nice touch is to remote the pressure gage to where you can see it. I ran mine with brake line and it sits under the dash next to the oil temperature gauge.
Thanks Everyone for the Info. So much good stuff i can't put it all in one post. How does the pressure delay work? I'm using the Canton Cable/Manual valve for the dry start issue. I was thinking i may put a T fitting on the outlet of my remote filter mount and use this for the Accusump and filter in/out then use the top fitting for the Oil pressure sending unit. I don't have the money for a Good pan yet like the Milodon that AUTOXCUDA helped bring out. I plan on making my own from on few circle track pans. That's why i figured the Accumulator was a good idea,
|
|
|
Re: Oil Accumulator
[Re: lakeeffect]
#1175268
02/19/12 09:43 PM
02/19/12 09:43 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
Mattax
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
|
Quote:
How does the pressure delay work?
It's basically a pressure sensitive check valve. The Accusump can only discharge when the oil pressure is below the set point. It is electricly operated by a pressure sensative switch (like you can buy for warning lights) on the engine side of the valve. The purpose is to make oil doesn't go to the accumulator whem its needed in the engine.
So a mechanical approach to this goal could be an arrangement with parallel feed lines. Say a -8 with check valve and a -6 without. In this scenario, the fill would be restricted to the -6 but the discharge would use both the -8 and the -6. Another mechanical approach would be to create a directionally shaped port so flow in have more resistance than flow out.
Quote:
I was thinking i may put a T fitting on the outlet of my remote filter mount and use this for the Accusump and filter in/out then use the top fitting for the Oil pressure sending unit.
Too much work and expense IMO. The pressure gage I was refering to is the one that goes on the AIR side of the Accusump. I'll see if I can find a picture.* Accusumps used to come with them. I think they gave me new one on the last rebuild. It's a mechanical gage. If you want an electric gage, either use the stock location or tap one in. On a Canton/Mecca filter - at least the older ones - you could. The remote filter base you have probably can be tapped.
*See about halfway down on this page showing Beckman's rallycuda being built.
|
|
|
|
|
