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Oil Accumulator

Posted By: lakeeffect

Oil Accumulator - 02/09/12 09:25 AM

So
This set up is going in a Mildish 340/5spd 'green brick' budget style 69 Valiant.

I'm currently Mocking up my Canton "Accusump" I was wondering if i have any snags in how I have it Mocked up, feed lines , placement - etc. The big X is over the Canton remote filter adapter. I'm starting to think it would be better to drill and Tap the block since the engine isn't built yet. Maybe not? Thanks !

Attached picture 7061785-IMG_0141.JPG
Posted By: HUSTLESTUFF

Re: Oil Accumulator - 02/09/12 11:18 AM

On a friends drag car he uses the rear of the block where the sending unit is. He pre-oils the engine before start up. One thing I learned today from him thru Nedbals book was if you have an external pick up have a loop up from the pan to the pump. Mike
Posted By: Mattax

Re: Oil Accumulator - 02/09/12 02:33 PM

Concept looks right.
Photo is a little blurry, so I assume that the adapter is one of Canton's that are machined and take a hollow through bolt. If so, those are pretty good (unlike the cast ones that screw on I forget who makes).

Where is the valve?
I should mention a few of us have decided that the electric valve with the pressure delay really helps insure the oil goes to the engine first after the unit has dumped. I've toyed with ways to address this mechanically (since I'm using a manual valve) but haven't implemented yet.

The big problem when running hoses from that area of the block is heat. The rubber inside the AN hose would eventually get brittle and oil would seep from everywhere. The hose would make a crinkling sound when it was taken off and flexed by hand. Aeroquip - good stuff - wasn't the fault of the mfc.
Headers were worse than manifolds but it happened with them too. That engine already ran hot oil temps this made it worse.
That said, currently I've got a single AN-line tapped into the right angle adapter with no problems. The hose is covered in aeroquip's insulated firesleeve.

Minor issue you may find with that layout is that when the accusump dumps, it may push back the rubber check in the oil filter. It looks to me like you're using a canton/mecca filter if so, no issue. Canton likes you to use a check valve, and in some instances that might gain a bit more oil going where it will do the most good.

PS. A nice touch is to remote the pressure gage to where you can see it. I ran mine with brake line and it sits under the dash next to the oil temperature gage.
Posted By: Mattax

Re: Oil Accumulator - 02/09/12 02:45 PM

Drill and tapp the block is OK. Depends how you like to assemble and dissasemble. With the bolt on, you can preassemble and 'just' bolt it up. With the tapped block, you must wrench the NPT's in place and can not rotate position. However then there are no gaskets or potential sealing issues.

I think its possible to use the bolt threads as they are. The threads are standard and so its not too hard to find a steel adapter from that to an AN. Check earls if its not an aeorqip item, 'cause I bought one years ago. However, in which case you have to use a gasket seal since its not a sealing thread. The MP/DC engine book as the tapping details. You'll also see mods for junky cast adapter, but the right thing is just not to use it.
Posted By: Rick_Ehrenberg

Re: Oil Accumulator - 02/09/12 03:50 PM

I use to have all kinds of fancy plumbing, cooler, etc.

Then the factory guys told me to just run Mobil 1 and stop worrying so much about oil temps. They also clued me in that lower oil levels reduces temps (a whole bunch!)

So now I just run a simple rubber Aeroquip hose from the ign-on-activated solenoid vale to the oil sender area. Simple. Cheap. Easy. Works. Proven.

About all I do "different" is be sure the engine is at fast idle for a few seconds before turning off the key. Come back 6 mos. later, and the accumulator gauge is still at 60-70 PSI. Turn the key on for 2-3 secs before cranking.

Never loses OP in corners anymore, either.

Rick
Posted By: Mattax

Re: Oil Accumulator - 02/09/12 05:50 PM

With all due respect, I think that the decision to use a cooler depends on the use and other factors. My last 340 ran hot, the current one runs relatively cold. Neither has seen extended track time, you know the typical 20 minute session, but the old engine was clearly going to be a problem with oil temps on the track. This one looks like it will be fine in that respect, but we'll see.

Anyway the OP is not showing a cooler. The drawback of using the the pressure sending unit location is volume. You know as well as anyone here that both volume and pressure are needed to keep those bearings from kissing. Can enough flow through that little npt fitting to cover the loss? A minor burp, probably. 15 seconds too long in a skid pad, maybe not.

Only times I've really had oil supply issues was when the pickup wasn't properly located at the bottom. Accusump definately helped but I also knew something was wrong. I could pretty much see what was going on from the gages as I finished each run.
Posted By: pauly v.100

Re: Oil Accumulator - 02/09/12 06:32 PM

Mines plumbed into the filter out line with a tee. This setup probably constricts the flow a little, but when I pre-oil I can hear the oil surging through the block so I know its working pretty well.
I have primarilly used it for pre-oiling so I can't really comment on how well it works while driving hard... not yet anyways.
Old pic, the Fram junk is long gone!!

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Posted By: pauly v.100

Re: Oil Accumulator - 02/09/12 06:40 PM

Quote:

I use to have all kinds of fancy plumbing, cooler, etc.

Then the factory guys told me to just run Mobil 1 and stop worrying so much about oil temps. They also clued me in that lower oil levels reduces temps (a whole bunch!)

So now I just run a simple rubber Aeroquip hose from the ign-on-activated solenoid vale to the oil sender area. Simple. Cheap. Easy. Works. Proven.

About all I do "different" is be sure the engine is at fast idle for a few seconds before turning off the key. Come back 6 mos. later, and the accumulator gauge is still at 60-70 PSI. Turn the key on for 2-3 secs before cranking.

Never loses OP in corners anymore, either.

Rick



Where did you relocate the sending unit to? -Pauly
Posted By: mikesiron

Re: Oil Accumulator - 02/10/12 03:48 AM

I have fought high oil temp for 11yrs. I have found several things that help. The most important thing is flow to the bearings. and getting the oil back into the pan. Good oil pan is a must 8qt min. Bearing clearance min rods.0025 mains.0025-.003 Mobil 1 with ZDDP added. HV pump with 1/2npt pick-up and pick up size 6sq in min. Crank scraper or wiper. http://www.crank-scrapers.com/ Windage tray. Lite wt oil= flow, Heavy oil= restance to flow= high presure= high oil temp. I am by no means an expert but I have learned this over 11yrs of circle track racing.
Posted By: mopardamo

Re: Oil Accumulator - 02/10/12 03:55 AM

Quote:

The drawback of using the the pressure sending unit location is volume. You know as well as anyone here that both volume and pressure are needed to keep those bearings from kissing. Can enough flow through that little npt fitting to cover the loss? A minor burp, probably. 15 seconds too long in a skid pad, maybe not.



Hello,

I think that the accumulator would not work for any extended makeup period. The size of the tank would need to be enormous if it was to make up for an uncovered pickup for anything near 15 seconds. If the line size is say is 1/2" diameter any of the tanks that I have seen would be out of oil in a few seconds. I bet they could not last 4 seconds. A smaller ID line/fitting would give less volume but provide more pressure for a longer period of time. So in my mind the idea of the accumulators is to help for very short periods of time. If its a crutch to make up for a bigger oiling problem then I think the engine is doomed anyway. I really like the idea for startup myself. :two cents:

Damon
Posted By: mikesiron

Re: Oil Accumulator - 02/10/12 04:07 AM

Here is a pic of a scraper

Attached picture 7063283-SPINDLES016.JPG
Posted By: mikesiron

Re: Oil Accumulator - 02/10/12 04:08 AM

Sorry wrong pic

Attached picture 7063287-SPINDLES012.JPG
Posted By: ahy

Re: Oil Accumulator - 02/10/12 04:14 AM

Quote:

Quote:

The drawback of using the the pressure sending unit location is volume. You know as well as anyone here that both volume and pressure are needed to keep those bearings from kissing. Can enough flow through that little npt fitting to cover the loss? A minor burp, probably. 15 seconds too long in a skid pad, maybe not.



Hello,

I think that the accumulator would not work for any extended makeup period. The size of the tank would need to be enormous if it was to make up for an uncovered pickup for anything near 15 seconds. If the line size is say is 1/2" diameter any of the tanks that I have seen would be out of oil in a few seconds. I bet they could not last 4 seconds. A smaller ID line/fitting would give less volume but provide more pressure for a longer period of time. So in my mind the idea of the accumulators is to help for very short periods of time. If its a crutch to make up for a bigger oiling problem then I think the engine is doomed anyway. I really like the idea for startup myself. :two cents:

Damon



Fair point. I'll add that when the acumulator is dumping oil in during an "uncovered pickup" event, the extra oil has a real good chance of covering the pickup again pretty fast and solving the problem.
Posted By: pauly v.100

Re: Oil Accumulator - 02/10/12 07:02 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The drawback of using the the pressure sending unit location is volume. You know as well as anyone here that both volume and pressure are needed to keep those bearings from kissing. Can enough flow through that little npt fitting to cover the loss? A minor burp, probably. 15 seconds too long in a skid pad, maybe not.



Hello,

I think that the accumulator would not work for any extended makeup period. The size of the tank would need to be enormous if it was to make up for an uncovered pickup for anything near 15 seconds. If the line size is say is 1/2" diameter any of the tanks that I have seen would be out of oil in a few seconds. I bet they could not last 4 seconds. A smaller ID line/fitting would give less volume but provide more pressure for a longer period of time. So in my mind the idea of the accumulators is to help for very short periods of time. If its a crutch to make up for a bigger oiling problem then I think the engine is doomed anyway. I really like the idea for startup myself. :two cents:

Damon



Fair point. I'll add that when the acumulator is dumping oil in during an "uncovered pickup" event, the extra oil has a real good chance of covering the pickup again pretty fast and solving the problem.



especially in a smaller or otherwise not "enormous" sump.
Thats exactly why i got one; cheap insurance for a mild crate motor.
Posted By: ThermoQuad

Re: Oil Accumulator - 02/10/12 01:01 PM

Road course 2 qt Accumulator user here,
Accusump variety with an electric valve on a switch.

When used with stock type pans it prevents the pushrod cups from getting smoked from no oil.
It also keeps the oil pressure swings to a minimum. Real experiences not speculation.

On a small block the 3/8 plug in the right angle oil filer adapter is opened to 1/2 npt and this is where the solenoid valve/oil line is attached.

Cheap insurance for expensive engines.
Posted By: Mattax

Re: Oil Accumulator - 02/10/12 02:18 PM

Quote:


I think that the accumulator would not work for any extended makeup period.



You've got part of the concept right but are missing the final determinants. The pressure the accumulator can maintain and for how long depends on the bearing clearances, rpm, and of course oil viscosity (which is temperature related) and type of failure. At high rpm with big clearances and oil a lot of volume will be needed quickly. At lower rpm with tight clearances the not as much flow will be needed to keep enough pressure to prevent more damage.

Think about it this way, using a small fitting will lose pressure inside the accumulator over a longer period of time as you point out. But the pressure in the accumulator is not helping the engine if the restriction is the fitting rather than the bearings.

Also recognize people are tossing out 3 different types of situations here. In autocross, the rpms go up and down from off-idle to redline for 50-70 seconds. In circle track, the rpms are running up and down between 3500-7000 for an extended period of time. Road course is also extended although with a different pattern of engine use and for performance driving, and many race classes, the engines are not really the same as a circle track race engine.

All this said, the basic advice for an accumulator setup has been outlined here by those who have been using them.
1. Good connections that won't restrict the flow for the uses intended.
2. Protect the hose(s) from excessive heat.
3. Partially check (restrict) the fill (eg electic valve with pressure sensor)

OP wasn't setting up an oil cooler and so my assumption is that's not needed for the intended application.
Posted By: ThermoQuad

Re: Oil Accumulator - 02/10/12 04:54 PM

-8an line for the accusump

Oh I forgot about the oil cooler - I use a bypass style set up from a cop car and plumb it as such.
Output at the rear of the block, input at the fuel pump, works below 6000 rpm -that's max rpm for my engines.

E body set up, from an M body
The breather is for the dip stick tube
Engines need venting when pushed around corners.

See the screen in front of the rad?

Remember street cars [transportation] driven on the track. I can't help with real race cars.

Attached picture 7063824-DSC02280lr.JPG
Posted By: lakeeffect

Re: Oil Accumulator - 02/20/12 12:25 AM

Quote:


Where is the valve?
I should mention a few of us have decided that the electric valve with the pressure delay really helps insure the oil goes to the engine first after the unit has dumped. I've toyed with ways to address this mechanically (since I'm using a manual valve) but haven't implemented yet.

The big problem when running hoses from that area of the block is heat. The rubber inside the AN hose would eventually get brittle and oil would seep from everywhere. The hose would make a crinkling sound when it was taken off and flexed by hand. Aeroquip - good stuff - wasn't the fault of the mfc.
Headers were worse than manifolds but it happened with them too. That engine already ran hot oil temps this made it worse.
That said, currently I've got a single AN-line tapped into the right angle adapter with no problems. The hose is covered in aeroquip's insulated firesleeve.

Minor issue you may find with that layout is that when the accusump dumps, it may push back the rubber check in the oil filter. It looks to me like you're using a canton/mecca filter if so, no issue. Canton likes you to use a check valve, and in some instances that might gain a bit more oil going where it will do the most good.

PS. A nice touch is to remote the pressure gage to where you can see it. I ran mine with brake line and it sits under the dash next to the oil temperature gauge.




Thanks Everyone for the Info. So much good stuff i can't put it all in one post. How does the pressure delay work? I'm using the Canton Cable/Manual valve for the dry start issue. I was thinking i may put a T fitting on the outlet of my remote filter mount and use this for the Accusump and filter in/out then use the top fitting for the Oil pressure sending unit. I don't have the money for a Good pan yet like the Milodon that AUTOXCUDA helped bring out. I plan on making my own from on few circle track pans. That's why i figured the Accumulator was a good idea,

Attached picture 7080163-IMG_0141.JPG
Posted By: Mattax

Re: Oil Accumulator - 02/20/12 01:43 AM

Quote:

How does the pressure delay work?


It's basically a pressure sensitive check valve. The Accusump can only discharge when the oil pressure is below the set point. It is electricly operated by a pressure sensative switch (like you can buy for warning lights) on the engine side of the valve. The purpose is to make oil doesn't go to the accumulator whem its needed in the engine.

So a mechanical approach to this goal could be an arrangement with parallel feed lines. Say a -8 with check valve and a -6 without. In this scenario, the fill would be restricted to the -6 but the discharge would use both the -8 and the -6. Another mechanical approach would be to create a directionally shaped port so flow in have more resistance than flow out.
Quote:

I was thinking i may put a T fitting on the outlet of my remote filter mount and use this for the Accusump and filter in/out then use the top fitting for the Oil pressure sending unit.


Too much work and expense IMO. The pressure gage I was refering to is the one that goes on the AIR side of the Accusump. I'll see if I can find a picture.* Accusumps used to come with them. I think they gave me new one on the last rebuild. It's a mechanical gage. If you want an electric gage, either use the stock location or tap one in. On a Canton/Mecca filter - at least the older ones - you could. The remote filter base you have probably can be tapped.

*See about halfway down on this page showing Beckman's rallycuda being built.
Posted By: Evil Spirit

Re: Oil Accumulator - 02/25/12 07:25 AM

Quote:

So
This set up is going in a Mildish 340/5spd 'green brick' budget style 69 Valiant.

I'm currently Mocking up my Canton "Accusump" I was wondering if i have any snags in how I have it Mocked up, feed lines , placement - etc. The big X is over the Canton remote filter adapter. I'm starting to think it would be better to drill and Tap the block since the engine isn't built yet. Maybe not? Thanks !



Not a fan of putting anything on the firewall in line with the flywheel/converter, and neither is some of the sanctionong bodies. I don't know how the road race sanctioning bodies tech this area, but this area is off limits during a REAL IHRA/NHRA tech.
Posted By: feets

Re: Oil Accumulator - 02/25/12 10:37 PM

Quote:

I use to have all kinds of fancy plumbing, cooler, etc.

Then the factory guys told me to just run Mobil 1 and stop worrying so much about oil temps. They also clued me in that lower oil levels reduces temps (a whole bunch!)




The problem with running an engine oil cooler is that your oil needs to be at temp to work effectively and parasitic load.
If you're cooling oil just to cool the oil you're shooting yourself in the foot.
A proper oil cooling system will have a thermostatic valve and a bypass. Below critical temperatures the oil is kept in the block. Once it gets too hot the valve opens and allows the oil to circulate through the cooler.
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