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Re: How versatile is a car built with cornering in mind?
[Re: amxautox]
#1155488
01/14/12 01:05 AM
01/14/12 01:05 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,471
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,471
So Cal
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Quote:
Too wide a tire will be detrimental to the fuel milage. And can wear out some of the steering components quicker, puts more stress on them.
A 2003 Mustang GT has 245 wide tires and weighs about 3400 lbs. I'm sure if you put the tires off a Prius it would get slightly better MPG. But suriously?
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Re: How versatile is a car built with cornering in mind?
[Re: autoxcuda]
#1155489
01/14/12 01:34 AM
01/14/12 01:34 AM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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Too narrow a tire will be detrimental to pristine sheetmetal when you push right into a tire wall.....
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: How versatile is a car built with cornering in mind?
[Re: 72Swinger]
#1155490
01/14/12 01:37 AM
01/14/12 01:37 AM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,666
On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
amxautox
Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
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Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,666
On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
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You don't use skinny tires on track.
Tom
"Everyone should believe in something; I believe I'll go fishing."
-Henry David Thoreau
Men and fish are alike. They both get into trouble when they open their mouths
author unknown
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Re: How versatile is a car built with cornering in mind?
[Re: autoxcuda]
#1155492
01/14/12 11:25 AM
01/14/12 11:25 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,664
IN
ahy
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,664
IN
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Quote:
Quote:
My only advice is to use as wide a tire as possible. You will only eat what you can bite!
 And you should be able to fit a 275/40/17 in the front of an E-body with little if any mods.
IMHO, a big heavy E-body with something as narrow as a 225 wide tire is nothing but a bottleneck.
I'd love to figure out how to fit 275's in the front of an E without mods. Mine has the "rolled lip" fenders from the factory and no other mods. I pulled the Tbars and measured with a checking wheel/tire at full lock L/R, full jounce and full re-bound. My standard was minimum 1/2" clearance at extreme conditions. Perhaps a bit conservative but I figured if I catch and deflate a tire under extreme conditions it wouldn't handle so well! Anyhow, with that standard I went with 225's on custom backspace wheels to optimize fit. The frame rails on an E are set wide for BB/Hemi engines which limits wheel well space.
I'd love to hear how to make it work with the wider tires short of flaring the fenders... which I may do some day.
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Re: How versatile is a car built with cornering in mind?
[Re: ahy]
#1155493
01/14/12 11:44 AM
01/14/12 11:44 AM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
Supercuda
About to go away
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About to go away
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
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Ever since I started buying A bodies I have built my rides to handle and go. All have been daily drivers as well. With the exception of my 65 Cuda, which hasn't been registered since 98, dang that long? There is no reason they can be versatile. In fact I would say they are more versatile than a dedicated drag car.
If you want to be fast on the course you have to have good handling, good brakes and good power. All my rides have had AC and cruise control (except cruise on the Cuda). Good radios, comfortable seats and are fun to drive.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
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Re: How versatile is a car built with cornering in mind
[Re: ThermoQuad]
#1155494
01/14/12 01:34 PM
01/14/12 01:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,263
Southwestern Ontario Canada
racealittle
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,263
Southwestern Ontario Canada
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Quote:
How versatile is a car built with cornering in mind? My vintage corner carvers all have factory cruise control...If done properly it's still transportation and can be used as such.
Every hot rod I build & run on the road course gets driven to and from the track and taken on real road trips. Drag strip visits to check top mph thru the traps are fun too.
Others call it pro-touring
I call it well thought out.
Tom, that is the way I would like to think about my car, "well thought out".
The dragstip habit came from needing a safe place to test the performance of my ride. I don't want to see my car seized and crushed for doing the things I did in my youth. Driving this kind of car can easily get you a stunt driving charge on the street.
I do realize there will always be change because I tend to keep a car for 30 years and constantly play with ideas. Just not sure that I have 30 years left and am after the experience of others and just get to the point of having fun behind the wheel every time I get behind it. ASAP
Too many cars, too many parts, too little coin, too little space to work in, too little time left to make it all happen!
Update: down to one ride, still too many parts, a little more jingle in the pocket, gaining space, and it's going to happen this year!
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Re: How versatile is a car built with cornering in mind?
[Re: ahy]
#1155495
01/14/12 01:47 PM
01/14/12 01:47 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,263
Southwestern Ontario Canada
racealittle
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,263
Southwestern Ontario Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
My only advice is to use as wide a tire as possible. You will only eat what you can bite!
And you should be able to fit a 275/40/17 in the front of an E-body with little if any mods.
IMHO, a big heavy E-body with something as narrow as a 225 wide tire is nothing but a bottleneck.
I'd love to figure out how to fit 275's in the front of an E without mods. Mine has the "rolled lip" fenders from the factory and no other mods. I pulled the Tbars and measured with a checking wheel/tire at full lock L/R, full jounce and full re-bound. My standard was minimum 1/2" clearance at extreme conditions. Perhaps a bit conservative but I figured if I catch and deflate a tire under extreme conditions it wouldn't handle so well! Anyhow, with that standard I went with 225's on custom backspace wheels to optimize fit. The frame rails on an E are set wide for BB/Hemi engines which limits wheel well space.
I'd love to hear how to make it work with the wider tires short of flaring the fenders... which I may do some day.
I personally don't want to alter stock sheet metal to fit tires/rims. I really would like to find the right rim and tire combination, (preferably same size so they can be rotated for wear). So I guess the limit will be whatever the maximum combination fits in the front wheel well. Hopefully it looks good in the back and still do the job.
I am still seriously considering using the Dr. Diff 1.5" relocation kit for the rear for maximum DOT tires for drag days. I will likely have to keep the stock e-body rear axle to acheive all considerations.
One item that I didn't mention, was that I designed a hidden hitch to pull a small trailer for those times when you need more carrying capacity. So towing 1000-1500 lbs. max at times is also in the plan.
Too many cars, too many parts, too little coin, too little space to work in, too little time left to make it all happen!
Update: down to one ride, still too many parts, a little more jingle in the pocket, gaining space, and it's going to happen this year!
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Re: How versatile is a car built with cornering in mind?
[Re: ahy]
#1155496
01/14/12 02:27 PM
01/14/12 02:27 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,394
Pikes Peak Country
TC@HP2
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,394
Pikes Peak Country
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Quote:
I'd love to figure out how to fit 275's in the front of an E without mods.
Can only be done with 17"+ wheels with 5"+ backspace. Backspace and tire section width measurements are critical to the fit and require a bit more homework than some are willing to put in. There simply isn't enough real estate there to make it work with a 15" tire.
To the original post, how verstile is a car that corners, IMO, very. Yes, Pro-touring is the axoim that is eaily applied these days, but it is important to seperate the real cars from the posers when it comes to that title. Drop springs and 20" wheels don't automatically qualify any more than a tubbed car with a blower was a pro streeter. If you look at cars in the Ultiamte Street Car Challenge, you can see where they walk the talk and are very capable of multiple disciplines. In the real world where most of us can't build $100k cars, it is still relevent. The world is comprised of straights and corners, stop lights and open roads. Being able to successfully engage all of those means your car will be more enjoyable to drive and ultimately you'll be driving and enjoying it more and thats what should really bring a smile to your face.
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Re: How versatile is a car built with cornering in mind?
[Re: racealittle]
#1155497
01/14/12 02:35 PM
01/14/12 02:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,471
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,471
So Cal
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
My only advice is to use as wide a tire as possible. You will only eat what you can bite!
And you should be able to fit a 275/40/17 in the front of an E-body with little if any mods.
IMHO, a big heavy E-body with something as narrow as a 225 wide tire is nothing but a bottleneck.
I'd love to figure out how to fit 275's in the front of an E without mods. Mine has the "rolled lip" fenders from the factory and no other mods. I pulled the Tbars and measured with a checking wheel/tire at full lock L/R, full jounce and full re-bound. My standard was minimum 1/2" clearance at extreme conditions. Perhaps a bit conservative but I figured if I catch and deflate a tire under extreme conditions it wouldn't handle so well! Anyhow, with that standard I went with 225's on custom backspace wheels to optimize fit. The frame rails on an E are set wide for BB/Hemi engines which limits wheel well space.
I'd love to hear how to make it work with the wider tires short of flaring the fenders... which I may do some day.
I personally don't want to alter stock sheet metal to fit tires/rims. I really would like to find the right rim and tire combination, (preferably same size so they can be rotated for wear). So I guess the limit will be whatever the maximum combination fits in the front wheel well. Hopefully it looks good in the back and still do the job.
I am still seriously considering using the Dr. Diff 1.5" relocation kit for the rear for maximum DOT tires for drag days. I will likely have to keep the stock e-body rear axle to acheive all considerations.
One item that I didn't mention, was that I designed a hidden hitch to pull a small trailer for those times when you need more carrying capacity. So towing 1000-1500 lbs. max at times is also in the plan.
I think you should look into 275/40/17 with 17x9 and 5.25" to 5.5" backspacing in the front. Even easier with a 18x9 and 275/35/18 tires. There is a very good possibility they will fit without fender mods. The only fender mod that would be necesscary is folding the very bottom corner front edge of the fender lip in a maximum 1" by 2" triangle. The key is getting the maximnum backspacing correct
I'm sure that will fit the rear but I don't know about the exact backspacing with that relocation kit.
If you do something like that you could have a decent sized rear tire that you could rotate with the front.
cudazappa runs 275/40/17 IIRC on his 71 Challenger. Maybe he can chime in on this.
I going to do that with an A-body that has a lot less room than an E-body.
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Re: How versatile is a car built with cornering in mind
[Re: racealittle]
#1155498
01/14/12 04:40 PM
01/14/12 04:40 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,697
Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,697
Bitopia
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Quote:
Others call it pro-touring
I call it well thought out.
Tom, that is the way I would like to think about my car, "well thought out".
I promise to drop the use of "just sayin, irregardless, etc" if we lose the "pro-touring" moniker, it just sounds so worn out, superficial, and phony. 
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: How versatile is a car built with cornering in mind
[Re: jcc]
#1155499
01/14/12 04:54 PM
01/14/12 04:54 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,263
Southwestern Ontario Canada
racealittle
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,263
Southwestern Ontario Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
Others call it pro-touring
I call it well thought out.
Tom, that is the way I would like to think about my car, "well thought out".
I promise to drop the use of "just sayin, irregardless, etc" if we lose the "pro-touring" moniker, it just sounds so worn out, superficial, and phony.
Real cars should do it all, and do it well. Hopefully I get my car back from my paint/body guy over the next month. The car is so far apart that I'm running out of faith that I can get roadworthy by early summer.
Too many cars, too many parts, too little coin, too little space to work in, too little time left to make it all happen!
Update: down to one ride, still too many parts, a little more jingle in the pocket, gaining space, and it's going to happen this year!
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Re: How versatile is a car built with cornering in mind
[Re: jcc]
#1155500
01/14/12 10:24 PM
01/14/12 10:24 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
Striving for excellence
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Striving for excellence
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
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Quote:
I promise to drop the use of "just sayin, irregardless, etc" if we lose the "pro-touring" moniker, it just sounds so worn out, superficial, and phony.
HA !! Its a DEAL !!
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Re: How versatile is a car built with cornering in mind
[Re: amxautox]
#1155502
01/16/12 04:42 PM
01/16/12 04:42 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
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IF I had to drive my SCCA Solo II nationally-prepped E/Street Prepared Challenger T/A on the street every day(excluding winters), I could. Sure, I would also have some "street" treaded tires on the car (which I have BFG RadT/A mounted on 15x8 vintage minilite rims). So, simply to compensate for the harsh suspension (set up for maximum Solo II autocross, as well as hi-speed road course lapping sessions), I just lower the tire pressures to about 28 lbs f/r (246-60-15 front, 275-60-15 rear)... as opposed to my Hoosier auto-x 274-45-16s.
Mopar Mitch
"Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers!
Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
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Re: How versatile is a car built with cornering in mind
[Re: Mopar Mitch]
#1155503
01/16/12 05:10 PM
01/16/12 05:10 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,471
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,471
So Cal
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Quote:
IF I had to drive my SCCA Solo II nationally-prepped E/Street Prepared Challenger T/A on the street every day(excluding winters), I could. Sure, I would also have some "street" treaded tires on the car (which I have BFG RadT/A mounted on 15x8 vintage minilite rims). So, simply to compensate for the harsh suspension (set up for maximum Solo II autocross, as well as hi-speed road course lapping sessions), I just lower the tire pressures to about 28 lbs f/r (246-60-15 front, 275-60-15 rear)... as opposed to my Hoosier auto-x 274-45-16s.
Just an FYI,
Mopar Mitch (Mitch Lelito) is one of the most sucessfull SCCA Solo II autocross competitors with a Mopar pre 1990 RWD V-8 car. His Challenger T/A has been featured in many articles, Mopar Performance Catalogs, he has wrote articles, etc over the past 30+ years that he has been competitive with the car.
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Re: How versatile is a car built with cornering in mind
[Re: autoxcuda]
#1155504
01/17/12 07:55 AM
01/17/12 07:55 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
Swears too much
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Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
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Quote:
Quote:
IF I had to drive my SCCA Solo II nationally-prepped E/Street Prepared Challenger T/A on the street every day(excluding winters), I could. Sure, I would also have some "street" treaded tires on the car (which I have BFG RadT/A mounted on 15x8 vintage minilite rims). So, simply to compensate for the harsh suspension (set up for maximum Solo II autocross, as well as hi-speed road course lapping sessions), I just lower the tire pressures to about 28 lbs f/r (246-60-15 front, 275-60-15 rear)... as opposed to my Hoosier auto-x 274-45-16s.
Just an FYI,
Mopar Mitch (Mitch Lelito) is one of the most sucessfull SCCA Solo II autocross competitors with a Mopar pre 1990 RWD V-8 car. His Challenger T/A has been featured in many articles, Mopar Performance Catalogs, he has wrote articles, etc over the past 30+ years that he has been competitive with the car.
To further that 'FYI'...
That Challenger ov Mitch's was doing all this FAR before Hotrod magazine started the whole 'pro-touring' trend, launching ten thousand projects. If i never hear 'pro-touring' again it'll be fine by me. Stinks up the headspace not unlike the 'pro-street' mess ov the 90's...
I remember reading about that T/A before i'd even owned my first Mopar. Probably have those articles memorized.
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Re: How versatile is a car built with cornering in mind
[Re: Pale_Roader]
#1155505
01/17/12 08:13 AM
01/17/12 08:13 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
Swears too much
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Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
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I think a good all around performing (acceleration, cornering, braking, driving, etc.) 'retro'd muscle car can be versatile. I plan on keeping mine particularly useful as an everyday car. Everyone will have different standards. Mine will accelerate, top end, corner and brake well. It will be very drivable, but by MY standards (maybe not yours). It wont have power anything, it might not even have a heater (and i live in Canada). It will have two seats, a roll bar, it will feel like a race car inside, but it will start and drive anytime, anywhere. A good 'Mad Max' car if you will.
I plan on getting a full suspension kit, but it will have to be modified because i do NOT like lowered cars. The Challenger especially looks boatish when its too low... the available tire space diminishes, and that means small tires. Severe lowering can look cool, but the meat MUST still be there. The Hotchkis T/A is a good example... the tires are way too small for my liking and the car just looks big/long/heavy. I dont yet know how i'm going to pull this off, but i will. I'll give up a bit in the G-dept. but that might just be made up with bigger tires than most and a lighter car than most (both in the works).
If my car wasn't 100% virgin sheetmetal and paint and straight i'd just cut the wheelwells... but it is, so i cant get off so easy.
The other problem with low cars is that unless you live in Germany, the roads suck. Potholes, curbs, speedbumps, and other assorted obstacles... can make driving a low car (daily driving) miserable. My car will also see a lot ov gravel roads and dirt roads... i get into all kinds ov weird places with my cars... so stock ride height is a minimum for me.
The two biggest hang-ups for me right now (in terms ov non-versatility) are going to be fuel mileage, and security. My budget for the first phase is already blown, so i'm stuck with a 40 year old engine to power the thing. Even a fairly efficient 383 is going to inhale gas without an overdrive. I'll be going modern as soon as possible. As for security, thats not such an easy fix. Probably the biggest worry about driving this thing daily is going to be it getting stolen... and not a lot i can do about that.
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Re: How versatile is a car built with cornering in mind
[Re: Pale_Roader]
#1155506
01/17/12 08:19 AM
01/17/12 08:19 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,376
NORTHERN CA
HUSTLESTUFF
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,376
NORTHERN CA
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"As for security, thats not such an easy fix. Probably the biggest worry about driving this thing daily is going to be it getting stolen... and not a lot i can do about that. There are satellite trackers for that with cut offs geofences and rapid tracking. Look here... ttp://www.rmtracking.com/
"Were in it to win it. Anything less will end up being..... A whole lot of fun doing!!" UNLAWFL
RIP UN
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Re: How versatile is a car built with cornering in mind
[Re: HUSTLESTUFF]
#1155507
01/17/12 01:19 PM
01/17/12 01:19 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,697
Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,697
Bitopia
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Living in So Fla my concern about security is usually with me in it, ie carjacking, I mean you know what they say about women that dress provocatively, same would seem to be true driving a hot car, I've rigged up a fuel cutoff to be kicked when exiting car under unpleasant circumstances, and the car likely will run out of gas unexpectedly for the perps, about 1/2 block away, hoping they panic and flee, giving me time to develope a new plan. 
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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