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Re: key way lifters
[Re: earthmover]
#895679
01/03/11 10:25 PM
01/03/11 10:25 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,082
St. Paul , Mn.
tubtar
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,082
St. Paul , Mn.
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The big reason is weight I believe.
Next up would be saving a block with lifter bores that went south , and though you could simply bush them , I'd look at taking the next step as long as the wallet was open.
It gets expensive , though there are some screaming deals on used NASCAR stuff on the bay.........I got a set of lifters for very cheap , but had to send them back because they weren't drilled for pushrod oiling.
But they only had " dyno time " according to the ad , and they sure looked and rolled like new.
For 250.00 , that was a bargain.
Keyway bushings installed is around 800.00 I think , so it do get pricey.
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Re: key way lifters
[Re: tubtar]
#895680
01/03/11 10:31 PM
01/03/11 10:31 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,449
nc
earthmover
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,449
nc
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his block has lifter bushing in them now and the small oil holes drilled if i remember correct. so if they are bushed he dont have to use the key way lifter ??  its a world block if the helps
Last edited by earthmover; 01/03/11 10:32 PM.
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Re: key way lifters
[Re: tubtar]
#895681
01/03/11 10:52 PM
01/03/11 10:52 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
RyanJ
moparts member
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moparts member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
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Quote:
Keyway bushings installed is around 800.00 I think , so it do get pricey.
The bushings alone are about $640.... not including installation. To bush a block with keyway bushings is well over $1000 parts/labor. The bushings are made from Ampco 45 bronze which is a very hard material, meaning honing time is greatly increased as well... The last couple we have done, we put block back in CNC after installing the bushings & bored them about .0005" undersized & then honed the last .0005" out to save time/effort.
The installation tool is $2600 from Jesel... very few shops have one, so not alot can do keyways. Jesel does rent the tool, I forget what the rental fee is, it's like $400 for 3 days? & they nail your credit card for like $1200 up front... & $800 gets refunded after tool gets back to Jesel in 1 piece. I rented the tool first block we did, & then after that just bit bullet & bought one.
The lifters are also in the $2600 range for 16 lifters new from Jesel. Most buy them off internet out of a Nascar shop either used or new overstock stuff to save $.
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Re: key way lifters
[Re: RyanJ]
#895682
01/03/11 11:02 PM
01/03/11 11:02 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,489
Pacifica, CA
Devilbrad
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,489
Pacifica, CA
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Quote:
Quote:
Keyway bushings installed is around 800.00 I think , so it do get pricey.
The bushings alone are about $640.... not including installation. To bush a block with keyway bushings is well over $1000 parts/labor. The bushings are made from Ampco 45 bronze which is a very hard material, meaning honing time is greatly increased as well... The last couple we have done, we put block back in CNC after installing the bushings & bored them about .0005" undersized & then honed the last .0005" out to save time/effort.
The installation tool is $2600 from Jesel... very few shops have one, so not alot can do keyways. Jesel does rent the tool, I forget what the rental fee is, it's like $400 for 3 days? & they nail your credit card for like $1200 up front... & $800 gets refunded after tool gets back to Jesel in 1 piece. I rented the tool first block we did, & then after that just bit bullet & bought one.
The lifters are also in the $2600 range for 16 lifters new from Jesel. Most buy them off internet out of a Nascar shop either used or new overstock stuff to save $.
Holy cow! Is that installation tool block specific or can one tool be used on any block?
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Re: key way lifters
[Re: Devilbrad]
#895683
01/03/11 11:03 PM
01/03/11 11:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
RyanJ
moparts member
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moparts member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Keyway bushings installed is around 800.00 I think , so it do get pricey.
The bushings alone are about $640.... not including installation. To bush a block with keyway bushings is well over $1000 parts/labor. The bushings are made from Ampco 45 bronze which is a very hard material, meaning honing time is greatly increased as well... The last couple we have done, we put block back in CNC after installing the bushings & bored them about .0005" undersized & then honed the last .0005" out to save time/effort.
The installation tool is $2600 from Jesel... very few shops have one, so not alot can do keyways. Jesel does rent the tool, I forget what the rental fee is, it's like $400 for 3 days? & they nail your credit card for like $1200 up front... & $800 gets refunded after tool gets back to Jesel in 1 piece. I rented the tool first block we did, & then after that just bit bullet & bought one.
The lifters are also in the $2600 range for 16 lifters new from Jesel. Most buy them off internet out of a Nascar shop either used or new overstock stuff to save $.
Holy cow! Is that installation tool block specific or can one tool be used on any block?
It's universal.
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Re: key way lifters
[Re: Performance Only]
#895689
01/04/11 12:56 AM
01/04/11 12:56 AM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,449
nc
earthmover
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,449
nc
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thanks dan dont know if he contacted you yet but he has your contact info so he should be  . and maybe he'll ask about the lifters.  .i wish he had a way to atlease read most of the stuff (some ) info on here its well worth it in the end.  ..alot of good guys to help with what works and dont..  i know i called him after i read ryanj post and he just didnt know what to say about the price, we had no idea they would be that much  ..i know i didnt..thanks mike
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Re: key way lifters
[Re: tubtar]
#895690
01/04/11 01:58 AM
01/04/11 01:58 AM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206
New York
polyspheric
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206
New York
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What's that come to, $100. per gram saved?
Only slightly more than using gold for ballast...
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: key way lifters
[Re: polyspheric]
#895691
01/04/11 06:57 AM
01/04/11 06:57 AM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,019
Finland
mafo
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,019
Finland
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I really like my key way lifters, but not the price... We made our own assembly tool, a little cheaper than buying from Jesel  Lsm has bushings and lifters that are a little less expensive
-65 Valiant,420", all motor,2700#, dot tires, 8,42 @ 160,2
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Re: key way lifters
[Re: mafo]
#895692
01/04/11 08:15 AM
01/04/11 08:15 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,142
Melbourne , Australia
LA360
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,142
Melbourne , Australia
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How much has that block been decked Ken? 0.200"?
I had a set of Keyway Jesel lifters that I bought at a good price,and then sold too cheaply to a friend who took forever to pay me for them. Unless it's running a Comp Elim or Pro Stock style profile, I would spend my money elsewhere. There are other alternatives to Jesel Keyway lifters nowadays, but they are still kinda pricey.
There are some really good drop in lifters available now, so it may be something worth looking at.
Alan Jones
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Re: key way lifters
[Re: LA360]
#895693
01/04/11 09:11 AM
01/04/11 09:11 AM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,019
Finland
mafo
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,019
Finland
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good guess Alan, deck height is 8.78
-65 Valiant,420", all motor,2700#, dot tires, 8,42 @ 160,2
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Re: key way lifters
[Re: polyspheric]
#895694
01/04/11 10:12 AM
01/04/11 10:12 AM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,082
St. Paul , Mn.
tubtar
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,082
St. Paul , Mn.
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Quote:
What's that come to, $100. per gram saved?
Only slightly more than using gold for ballast...
Well..........when you put it that way.......... 
makes unobtanium look like a bargain.
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Re: key way lifters
[Re: polyspheric]
#895695
01/04/11 11:41 AM
01/04/11 11:41 AM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,165
Left Coast
BobR
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,165
Left Coast
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Quote:
What's that come to, $100. per gram saved?
Only slightly more than using gold for ballast...
Now you guys may begin to understand the real costs of going fast and why real race engines are soooo expensive. These lifters are better in a few ways-not just the weight savings. If you are revving your motor past 9 grand you need this kind of stuff.
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Re: key way lifters
[Re: BobR]
#895696
01/04/11 12:09 PM
01/04/11 12:09 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206
New York
polyspheric
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206
New York
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Do you mean the side-thrust of dragging the link back and forth?
Keyed lifters are ancient - they just get "re-invented" every 30 years.
The expense of machining the bushing looks like overkill. The lifter wants to ride with the roller correctly across the lobe because turning side-ways increases the spring load, so unless the lash gets out of hand the required precision isn't really that high (both angularity and size).
It doesn't restrict tappet rotation (i.e., take thrust load) like a pushrod guide actually "steers" the PR, it's only a fence to prevent them from wandering too far.
The roller has to rotate a huge amount before it can be trapped cross-wise and self-destruct, and it only needs to be caught before that point - not at .001° off.
Harley has used rollers with the wheel captive in a slot for 90 years, and they're pretty sloppy - but nothing ever happens, even in the race motors.
Boffin Emeritus
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whats the main reason to run them??? 
