Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic
[Re: Magnum]
#85313
07/08/08 08:27 PM
07/08/08 08:27 PM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481 Chino Valley
RodStRace
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
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Fun? Open road or playing around hands down the stick. In heavy traffic or trying to remain civil in all conditions, auto. Faster? Well, do you mean quick or fast? Unless you are Ronnie Sox's ghost, the auto is going to be quicker in most cases. Fast is top speed, and I'd have to give the nod to the one that has less powertrain loss (stick). Then you mention that cost or OE is not an issue, but compare the gearing. For the cost of a switch, you could optimize the gearing, so that's moot.
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Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic
[Re: RodStRace]
#85314
07/09/08 12:20 PM
07/09/08 12:20 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,134 Kelowna, B.C. Canada
DPelletier
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,134
Kelowna, B.C. Canada
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Quote:
Unless you are Ronnie Sox's ghost, the auto is going to be quicker in most cases.
Yep.
Admittedly, my goals were different than most as I wanted to build a Pure Stock drag car and after very little soul searching, I decided an automatic was a far better choice for me. Aside from the fact that the autos are generally quicker and that the vast majority of PS frontrunners are autos, I also realized the automatic would be easier on the driveline and unibody as well as far more consistent. I also figured it would be deal with traction issues related to the bias ply tires.
Here's an interesting article that talks about the Hurst pistol grip shifted 833 in a '70 V-code SB;
....as far as the OP is concerned, it sounds to me like you'd be happier with the 5 spd.
Dave
1970 Super Bee 440 Six Pack
1974 'Cuda
2008 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Ram 3500 Diesel
2004.5 Ram 2500 Diesel
2003 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Durango Limited
[url] http://1970superbee.piczo.com [/url]
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Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic
[Re: DPelletier]
#85315
07/09/08 01:06 PM
07/09/08 01:06 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 457 Hightstown, NJ
njdevil2
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 457
Hightstown, NJ
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I wasn't gonn a weigh in here, but what the heck... Raced '70 Hemi Challenger 4 speed (A/S)& '70 440+6 4 speed Road Runner (C/S), both bracket & class racing. Both were a blast, wheels up (just a little) and after a while, I was REAL consistant with 'em within .05 on most passes. One of the FEW manuals in the bracket class. My streeters, a '70 road runner convert 383 4 speed and my '76 Aspen wagon 360 727 manual automatic, The bird is still a gas to drive, especially since I still drop the hammer on it and abuse it. Love banging the gears and doing that clutchless shift (you manual guys know what I'm talking about). The 727 is a whole different universe. The 1-2 shift always chirps the tires, I can light 'em up most times dry and hit 2nd without a beat, that 2-3 shift hits RIGHT NOW!!! For sheer kicks, go manual. Everyday driving, manual auto. The GV thing is nice, but at what cost? It's gotta be a heavy add-on. Someone has a GM modified OD automatic that fits Mopars and Tremic has the manual just like Passon. I'd opt for the Passon unit, personally.
1970 road runner Convertible 1 of 179
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Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic
[Re: mopars4ever]
#85317
07/09/08 01:23 PM
07/09/08 01:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714 Spokane Washington
ScottSmith_Harms
Mr Wizzard
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Mr Wizzard
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
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Quote:
nless you are Ronnie Sox's ghost, the auto is going to be quicker in most cases.
Agreed, Ronnie was the best known Mopar 4 speed racer ever as far as I'm concerned, fast and consistant (and it his consistancy is what made him a legend, not just a few quick passes).
So, don't go thinking that he's the only one able to speed shift an 833 (no clutch etc.) it's a learned technique, some can master it, some can't. Few can do it consistantly. Bottom line, stock for stock a 4 speed trans vs an automatic the 4 speed is going to offer the quickest/fastest 1/4 mile speed POTENTIAL, the rest is up to the driver.
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Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic
[Re: ScottSmith_Harms]
#85318
07/09/08 01:42 PM
07/09/08 01:42 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,327 Glendale, AZ
69L78Nova
Banned. Forever.
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Banned. Forever.
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,327
Glendale, AZ
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Ive converted 3 automatic cars to 4-speeds. After taking them back out to the track, it was discovered that I was as consisatant as the automatic and a couple tenths faster in one car. Never lost the consistency though. And were talking 11-12 second cars. Once you learn the car and run it enough, thees nothing to it. Powershifting is no big deal either. People make it out to be more than it is in the difficulty department
1969 Nova 454/M21/3.31 Mild mid-11 second weekend cruiser
1994 F150 XLT Super Cab 2WD 5.0/4R70W/3.55 (Daily driver)
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Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic
[Re: ScottSmith_Harms]
#85319
07/09/08 03:34 PM
07/09/08 03:34 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,134 Kelowna, B.C. Canada
DPelletier
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,134
Kelowna, B.C. Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
nless you are Ronnie Sox's ghost, the auto is going to be quicker in most cases.
Agreed, Ronnie was the best known Mopar 4 speed racer ever as far as I'm concerned, fast and consistant (and it his consistancy is what made him a legend, not just a few quick passes).
So, don't go thinking that he's the only one able to speed shift an 833 (no clutch etc.) it's a learned technique, some can master it, some can't. Few can do it consistantly. Bottom line, stock for stock a 4 speed trans vs an automatic the 4 speed is going to offer the quickest/fastest 1/4 mile speed POTENTIAL, the rest is up to the driver.
Not trying to beat this one to death and I don't dissagree for the most part, but there is only one 4 spd in the top 10 PS cars for a legitimate reason......and it ain't 'cause those guys want to go slower. I will concede that there is undoubtably some improvement in the automatics internals....even on these "stock" cars!
Sure some guys can shift a 833 like it was an extension of themselves and I'm sure the consistency can be learned. I still think my car will be no slower as an automatic and that it will be easier to launch and easier on parts and the unibody.
Dave
1970 Super Bee 440 Six Pack
1974 'Cuda
2008 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Ram 3500 Diesel
2004.5 Ram 2500 Diesel
2003 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Durango Limited
[url] http://1970superbee.piczo.com [/url]
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Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic
[Re: DPelletier]
#85320
07/09/08 03:49 PM
07/09/08 03:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714 Spokane Washington
ScottSmith_Harms
Mr Wizzard
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Mr Wizzard
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
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Quote:
Not trying to beat this one to death and I don't dissagree for the most part, but there is only one 4 spd in the top 10 PS cars for a legitimate reason......and it ain't 'cause those guys want to go slower. I will concede that there is undoubtably some improvement in the automatics internals....even on these "stock" cars!
Sure some guys can shift a 833 like it was an extension of themselves and I'm sure the consistency can be learned. I still think my car will be no slower as an automatic and that it will be easier to launch and easier on parts and the unibody.
Dave
Yea, I'm not trying to turn the dead horse into pulp either
But a parting shot....I can only surmise that the REASON most PS (and FAST) cars are automatics is because they want to win races. Any small difference in ET potential gained by running a 4speed would more than likely be covered by consistancy going rounds during a competition.
Not many guys serious about winning will build a purpose built car for PS or FAST by knowingly going in with a consistancy disadvantage challenged by thier lack of the ability to shift and feather the throttle all at the same time.
Those factory tires (not the transmissions) are the real achilles heal for those two classes, a manual trans only complicates the issue of traction, on slicks it would be a different story.
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Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic
[Re: DPelletier]
#85321
07/09/08 03:55 PM
07/09/08 03:55 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Not trying to beat this one to death and I don't dissagree for the most part, but there is only one 4 spd in the top 10 PS cars for a legitimate reason......and it ain't 'cause those guys want to go slower. I will concede that there is undoubtably some improvement in the automatics internals....even on these "stock" cars!
Sure some guys can shift a 833 like it was an extension of themselves and I'm sure the consistency can be learned. I still think my car will be no slower as an automatic and that it will be easier to launch and easier on parts and the unibody.
Dave
I think in the case you are sighting here it is more a matter of fear of not being able to drive the manual vs the easy of the auto.
As said above there is no magic in power shifting. Some of the older guys don't have the reaction time they used to. Some just don't have the coordination, and still others have a shakey left foot at the light under the nervousness or exceitment.
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Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic
[Re: 383man]
#85325
07/10/08 03:04 PM
07/10/08 03:04 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,261 ILL
mark7171
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,261
ILL
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thats the problem with auto trans you built it up and they loose their functionality. all go or no.
if you are building engines that kick butt than a 4 speed is what you need. then you are the stall. no converter tricks , just gears.
remember the ford 5.0l and camaros SS off the lot. the autos were pooches. the 5-6 speed hauled , and layed tons of rubber.
pulling your way to 3600 rpms, is better than stalling through it.
Last edited by mark7171; 07/10/08 03:13 PM.
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Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic
[Re: mark7171]
#85327
07/10/08 08:26 PM
07/10/08 08:26 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,327 Glendale, AZ
69L78Nova
Banned. Forever.
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Banned. Forever.
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,327
Glendale, AZ
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Quote:
remember the ford 5.0l and camaros SS off the lot. the autos were pooches. the 5-6 speed hauled , and layed tons of rubber.
Well, you also need to take into consideration the gear ratios of the Ford AOD trans. 2.40, 1.47, 1.00, 0.67 was nothing to write home about in the performance department. The Borg/Warner T5 had much better ratios....1st 2.95 2nd 1.94 3rd 1.34 4th 1.00 5th .625
1969 Nova 454/M21/3.31 Mild mid-11 second weekend cruiser
1994 F150 XLT Super Cab 2WD 5.0/4R70W/3.55 (Daily driver)
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