Moparts
Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stick
Posted By: 68Bullit
Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stick - 07/07/08 05:59 PM
Real simple here. Would my car be more fun to drive with a 5-spd Tremec or my current 904 with a GV setup? Which would be a better investment, the automatic, or 5-spd? Originality is NOT an issue here. Nothing original about my Charger SE mild small block car. Will the 5-spd give me more power than the auto w/GV? I know they are both strong setups but I'm beginning to think that my car's potential will always be limited in front of the 904 tranny? My Charger is a driver, and I want to drive it alot and have fun while driving it, including to start taking it on a couple of 2-3 hour trips each year. The GV has a .78 overdrive and the Tremec that I'm eyeballing right now is the TKO-600 with the .64 overdrive. The car will keep it's current 3.91 SG's. Which would you choose for fun, if you could afford either one? Thanks
Posted By: Dart 340
Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic - 07/07/08 06:04 PM
My opinion is a manual is always more fun to drive. As for faster, I guess that's what you mean. Automatics are human error free for the most part.
You are not going to miss a gear with an auto, and you dont have the slight time lapse - power loss shifting. You can rev up a manual and dump the clutch without doing a neutral drop like in an automatic.
It's all a matter or preference.
Posted By: west
Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic - 07/07/08 06:22 PM
autos are quicker and more cosistant in the 1/4 mile only.
manuals require less stuff and maintnence and are much more efficent on hills and turns.
autos are easier to install if the car was originally an auto.
I built an auto car,if i did it again it would be a manual.
Posted By: mkdart
Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stick - 07/07/08 09:32 PM
Replaced the 727 in my dart with a TKO-600 ,5-speed(.64 fifth). It was pricey but it's a blast to drive. Mike
Posted By: Pacnorthcuda
Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stick - 07/07/08 09:36 PM
Trick question. Stick is more fun, Auto is faster.
The thing about this age-old debate is that in almost all cases, low-powered cars are faster in stick form due to parasitic losses of the automatic. High powered cars can afford these losses (the rear tires/suspension usually become the limiting factor)
Posted By: dOrk !
Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stick - 07/07/08 09:45 PM
The big Q to answer is this.... does your mild small block have the cajones to pull that big Charger with a .64 OD ?
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic - 07/07/08 10:09 PM
Quote:
It's all a matter or preference.
...yep.
Dave
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic - 07/07/08 10:16 PM
My opinion based post........
Manual is more fun
Manual is usually a bit faster (if it's an 833 trans that is) but NOT if it's a Kielser! They don't shift as Fast/Smooth as an 833.
Manual will get you better milage
Automatic is more consistant
Automatic is generally lower maintainance
If I were in your shoes I'd buy the Gear vendor unit regardless of if you run a 727 auto or an 833 4 speed if over drive is your goal, also look into Jamie Passons 4 speed OD unit, price is competitive and bullit proof..
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic - 07/08/08 01:04 AM
MAN...
obviously some of you dudes never drove a manual valvebody trans car before.
Posted By: DaytonaTurbo
Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stick - 07/08/08 01:15 AM
Quote:
Trick question. Stick is more fun, Auto is faster.
The thing about this age-old debate is that in almost all cases, low-powered cars are faster in stick form due to parasitic losses of the automatic. High powered cars can afford these losses (the rear tires/suspension usually become the limiting factor)
Manual if more fun but in general auto is faster. If you've got a 500hp car, auto will definitely be faster, but like he said, if you've got a low-powered car, IE more like 300hp, the stick may in fact be faster because of the extra gearing is now worth the time spent shifting. All-in-all no matter what, manual trans is always more fun, but if you're chasing ET's, auto is the way to go.
As for manual valve body autos, I dunno, just something about that conceptually turns me off. I mean what's the point of shifting manually if you don't have a clutch pedal to play with? I thought that was the whole point...
Posted By: MoparforLife
Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic - 07/08/08 01:24 AM
Back in the day the 4 speed was deemed faster and rated according to NHRA as such. At that time there were numerous drivers out there both pro and non pro that new how to bang gears keeping the right to the floor and bearly touching the clutch pedal. don't see all that many now. They are there but in the numbers there were back then. Also the autos of the day were not quite as quick shifting as there were not the kits and valve bodies available then as now.
Posted By: 440Demon
Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic - 07/08/08 02:20 AM
I agree with Scott - I run a "standard" Jamie Passon stick in a BB A body and love it. I had the same choice in front of me when I re-did the car between 02 and 05. Put the stick in and never looked back. Much like six flags, more gears = more fun!
John
72440Demon
Posted By: MoparforLife
Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic - 07/08/08 02:52 AM
Quote:
I agree with Scott - I run a "standard" Jamie Passon stick in a BB A body and love it. I had the same choice in front of me when I re-did the car between 02 and 05. Put the stick in and never looked back. Much like six flags, more gears = more fun!
John
72440Demon
As you get older the more shiftless you get. I used to like it and knew how and could bang gears too but not no more.
Posted By: Max Rockatansky
Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stick - 07/08/08 02:56 AM
Musclecars should have clutches and big, burly shifters. Automatics are for gir...oops, here comes my wife, gotta go.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stick - 07/08/08 03:21 AM
Quote:
As you get older the more shiftless you get. I used to like it and knew how and could bang gears too but not no more.
I'm 45, how old do I have to be to get tired of shifting? I'll answer for you, It would be after I'm dead! 
I've driven just about every kind of automatic combo out there (manual valve body, reverse manual valve body, SS/DA car with 5,500 stall converters, heck even drove a clutch-flite a few times, remember those?), some are more fun than others and all are easier to drive than a stick, but none have come close to the fun factor a manual offers, not for me anyway.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic - 07/08/08 03:24 AM
Stick is always going to be more fun. Especially an 833
Posted By: 73cuda340
Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic - 07/08/08 03:32 AM
4 speed will always be more fun
Posted By: Mebsuta
Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stick - 07/08/08 04:52 AM
Manual all the way. Would not even consider owning an automatic unless I was hurt or had bad knees and couldn't work the clutch and shifter. To date I have never owned any type of vehicle with an automatic, hot-rod or otherwise.
Posted By: GTX MATT
Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic - 07/08/08 04:57 AM
If you go with something with a quick first gear I think you'll like it better. Alot of the advantage of newer cars is the gearing that they get away with because of 5th and 6th speed overdrive. First gear is in the mid 3s:1 and differential is often in the mid to high 4s in these little engined sports cars. You dont need that much torque when youve got all that mechanical advantage on your side.
You think a 225 hp 300 ft lb of torque 302 would have propelled a late 60s Mustang to mid 14s like the 5.0s of the 80s?
3.35 first gear helps those cars alot.
Posted By: Magnum
Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic - 07/08/08 10:05 PM
Quote:
Which would be a better investment, the automatic, or 5-spd?
You've already had many responses concerning which is better but I will add another point.
I've watched the prices of Tremecs on the Mustang forums. It's a nice upgrade over the factory Mustang transmission too. As for investment.
Even used, like raced for 6 years used. These are still selling for $1600-$2000 and being sold FAST.
Also the internal rail shift mechanism feels like day one after thousands of miles.
Posted By: RodStRace
Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic - 07/09/08 12:27 AM
Fun? Open road or playing around hands down the stick. In heavy traffic or trying to remain civil in all conditions, auto.
Faster? Well, do you mean quick or fast? Unless you are Ronnie Sox's ghost, the auto is going to be quicker in most cases. Fast is top speed, and I'd have to give the nod to the one that has less powertrain loss (stick).
Then you mention that cost or OE is not an issue, but compare the gearing. For the cost of a switch, you could optimize the gearing, so that's moot.
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic - 07/09/08 04:20 PM
Quote:
Unless you are Ronnie Sox's ghost, the auto is going to be quicker in most cases.
Yep.
Admittedly, my goals were different than most as I wanted to build a Pure Stock drag car and after very little soul searching, I decided an automatic was a far better choice for me. Aside from the fact that the autos are generally quicker and that the vast majority of PS frontrunners are autos, I also realized the automatic would be easier on the driveline and unibody as well as far more consistent. I also figured it would be deal with traction issues related to the bias ply tires.
Here's an interesting article that talks about the Hurst pistol grip shifted 833 in a '70 V-code SB;
....as far as the OP is concerned, it sounds to me like you'd be happier with the 5 spd.
Dave
Posted By: njdevil2
Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic - 07/09/08 05:06 PM
I wasn't gonn a weigh in here, but what the heck...
Raced '70 Hemi Challenger 4 speed (A/S)& '70 440+6 4 speed Road Runner (C/S), both bracket & class racing. Both were a blast, wheels up (just a little) and after a while, I was REAL consistant with 'em within .05 on most passes. One of the FEW manuals in the bracket class. My streeters, a '70 road runner convert 383 4 speed and my '76 Aspen wagon 360 727 manual automatic, The bird is still a gas to drive, especially since I still drop the hammer on it and abuse it. Love banging the gears and doing that clutchless shift (you manual guys know what I'm talking about). The 727 is a whole different universe. The 1-2 shift always chirps the tires, I can light 'em up most times dry and hit 2nd without a beat, that 2-3 shift hits RIGHT NOW!!! For sheer kicks, go manual.
Everyday driving, manual auto.
The GV thing is nice, but at what cost? It's gotta be a heavy add-on. Someone has a GM modified OD automatic that fits Mopars and Tremic has the manual just like Passon. I'd opt for the Passon unit, personally.
Posted By: mopars4ever
Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic - 07/09/08 05:15 PM
For the most fun the stick. Back in the day sticks were faster but I`m oldy and moldy and prefer the auto now. Mike
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic - 07/09/08 05:23 PM
Quote:
nless you are Ronnie Sox's ghost, the auto is going to be quicker in most cases.
Agreed, Ronnie was the best known Mopar 4 speed racer ever as far as I'm concerned, fast and consistant (and it his consistancy is what made him a legend, not just a few quick passes).
So, don't go thinking that he's the only one able to speed shift an 833 (no clutch etc.) it's a learned technique, some can master it, some can't. Few can do it consistantly. Bottom line, stock for stock a 4 speed trans vs an automatic the 4 speed is going to offer the quickest/fastest 1/4 mile speed POTENTIAL, the rest is up to the driver.
Posted By: 69L78Nova
Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic - 07/09/08 05:42 PM
Ive converted 3 automatic cars to 4-speeds. After taking them back out to the track, it was discovered that I was as consisatant as the automatic and a couple tenths faster in one car. Never lost the consistency though. And were talking 11-12 second cars. Once you learn the car and run it enough, thees nothing to it. Powershifting is no big deal either. People make it out to be more than it is in the difficulty department
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic - 07/09/08 07:34 PM
Quote:
Quote:
nless you are Ronnie Sox's ghost, the auto is going to be quicker in most cases.
Agreed, Ronnie was the best known Mopar 4 speed racer ever as far as I'm concerned, fast and consistant (and it his consistancy is what made him a legend, not just a few quick passes).
So, don't go thinking that he's the only one able to speed shift an 833 (no clutch etc.) it's a learned technique, some can master it, some can't. Few can do it consistantly. Bottom line, stock for stock a 4 speed trans vs an automatic the 4 speed is going to offer the quickest/fastest 1/4 mile speed POTENTIAL, the rest is up to the driver.
Not trying to beat this one to death and I don't dissagree for the most part, but there is only one 4 spd in the top 10 PS cars for a legitimate reason......and it ain't 'cause those guys want to go slower. I will concede that there is undoubtably some improvement in the automatics internals....even on these "stock" cars!
Sure some guys can shift a 833 like it was an extension of themselves and I'm sure the consistency can be learned. I still think my car will be no slower as an automatic and that it will be easier to launch and easier on parts and the unibody.
Dave
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic - 07/09/08 07:49 PM
Quote:
Not trying to beat this one to death and I don't dissagree for the most part, but there is only one 4 spd in the top 10 PS cars for a legitimate reason......and it ain't 'cause those guys want to go slower. I will concede that there is undoubtably some improvement in the automatics internals....even on these "stock" cars!
Sure some guys can shift a 833 like it was an extension of themselves and I'm sure the consistency can be learned. I still think my car will be no slower as an automatic and that it will be easier to launch and easier on parts and the unibody.
Dave
Yea, I'm not trying to turn the dead horse into pulp either 
But a parting shot....I can only surmise that the REASON most PS (and FAST) cars are automatics is because they want to win races. Any small difference in ET potential gained by running a 4speed would more than likely be covered by consistancy going rounds during a competition.
Not many guys serious about winning will build a purpose built car for PS or FAST by knowingly going in with a consistancy disadvantage challenged by thier lack of the ability to shift and feather the throttle all at the same time.
Those factory tires (not the transmissions) are the real achilles heal for those two classes, a manual trans only complicates the issue of traction, on slicks it would be a different story.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic - 07/09/08 07:55 PM
Quote:
Not trying to beat this one to death and I don't dissagree for the most part, but there is only one 4 spd in the top 10 PS cars for a legitimate reason......and it ain't 'cause those guys want to go slower. I will concede that there is undoubtably some improvement in the automatics internals....even on these "stock" cars!
Sure some guys can shift a 833 like it was an extension of themselves and I'm sure the consistency can be learned. I still think my car will be no slower as an automatic and that it will be easier to launch and easier on parts and the unibody.
Dave
I think in the case you are sighting here it is more a matter of fear of not being able to drive the manual vs the easy of the auto.
As said above there is no magic in power shifting. Some of the older guys don't have the reaction time they used to. Some just don't have the coordination, and still others have a shakey left foot at the light under the nervousness or exceitment.
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic - 07/09/08 08:15 PM
Dave
Posted By: 383man
Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic - 07/10/08 06:20 AM
If you enjoy driving the stick then I would go with it. Unless you plan to race it but you said it will be a driver and you most likely will want the stick. But I will say my 63 is 99% street driven and I have an auto with a reverse manual valve body and I love driving it.
Ron
Posted By: dogdays
Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic - 07/10/08 06:22 PM
One of the major car mags of 1969 or 1970 described the 4-speed 440-6pack they tested as having a "sword-in-stone" shifter. The A-833 was a heavy duty transmission with some big parts and wasn't as easy to shift fast as some of the competition, but didn't break as much either.
I don't drive in traffic all that much so my preference is manuals, but the automatic has it hands down when going into the middle of town or stacked up in an Interstate parking lot for hours.
R.
Posted By: mark7171
Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic - 07/10/08 07:04 PM
thats the problem with auto trans you built it up and they loose their functionality. all go or no.
if you are building engines that kick butt than a 4 speed is what you need. then you are the stall. no converter tricks , just gears.
remember the ford 5.0l and camaros SS off the lot. the autos were pooches. the 5-6 speed hauled , and layed tons of rubber.
pulling your way to 3600 rpms, is better than stalling through it.
Posted By: Paul_Fancsali
Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic - 07/10/08 08:29 PM
Sticks are a blast my 4 spd car pulls like crazy I will get in and drive it just to row the gears . Yes you can matt a 833 4 spd mopar just be dang sure the clutch will stand up to itIt is the best way for a small block. For automatics I ran manuel valve bodies and will never use them anymore. Now running a programed 727 with shifts set for 5300-5700 depending on where I set them hits hard and very fast. Car is faster in drive then manual shifting. worth every penny spent on it in 1991.Other then yearly fluid changes and filter I have done nothing to it. This is after a string of 3 trans disasters one which exploded. All fresh reman and man valve body transmissions. Race automatics for real fun 4-5-6spd
Posted By: 69L78Nova
Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic - 07/11/08 12:26 AM
Quote:
remember the ford 5.0l and camaros SS off the lot. the autos were pooches. the 5-6 speed hauled , and layed tons of rubber.
Well, you also need to take into consideration the gear ratios of the Ford AOD trans. 2.40, 1.47, 1.00, 0.67 was nothing to write home about in the performance department. The Borg/Warner T5 had much better ratios....1st 2.95 2nd 1.94 3rd 1.34 4th 1.00 5th .625