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#838190 - 10/25/10 08:59 AM Mercedes fan upgrade
bonefish Offline
master

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 7131
Loc: s.w.fl
has anyone used the ebay replacement fans for the application,also there are different sellers and different prices for what seems to be the same fan,are there differences,any recomendations?.

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#838191 - 10/25/10 09:42 AM Re: Mercedes fan upgrade [Re: bonefish]
Andrewh Offline
master

Registered: 02/17/03
Posts: 7926
That actually looks like it is not a good choice anymore.
The aftermarket fans are the earlier ones and they seem to burn out with out some kind of controler. 2 people tested it and although one guy got it to run for a while, it burned out when he applied 40 amps to it. it ran at 20 or 30 amps for several hours, but that was because he had it hooked to a charger that could limit the amp supplied.
don't know how to do that on a car.

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#838192 - 10/25/10 10:15 AM Re: Mercedes fan upgrade [Re: Andrewh]
WILD BILL Offline
Senior Member of the Junior Dragster Club

Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 10542
Loc: BROOK PARK, OH
Most of the talk as of late has been around the HHR fans.

A lot of people seem to really like those ones.

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#838193 - 10/25/10 02:24 PM Re: Mercedes fan upgrade [Re: WILD BILL]
gtx69 Offline
super gas

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 1476
As Andrewh stated i did the tests on the fan.The fan ran good on 20 amps but any more had problems.Looking at other mercedes fans they have some without the controller on them the same as feets have.Different year fans.So i think the ones without the controller that have the direct wires coming out of the motor to the plug will work.Haven't tryed it yet through.Stay away from the one's with the box(controller)on them.

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#838194 - 10/25/10 03:34 PM Re: Mercedes fan upgrade [Re: WILD BILL]
feets Offline
Senior Management

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 27320
Loc: Irving, TX
The HHR fans take a bit of hacking for tighter engine compartments and don't fit the radiator well.
The Mercedes C-class fan is a near perfect fit and flows MUCH more air.
Read this thread.

Mercedes fan on (damaged) 26" radiator:



Mercedes fan (WRONG STYLE but same size) on aftermarket radiator:



HHR fan on the same radiator:



Be sure you get the correct style Mercedes fan! The early style is on top. It's commonly found in the aftermarket. You need the fan on the bottom without the heat sink.


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#838195 - 10/25/10 06:26 PM Re: Mercedes fan upgrade [Re: feets]
DaveRS23 Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 4924
Loc: Benton, IL.
Spal and others have fan controllers that are pulse width modulated. They run a little over $100. Wouldn't that let the aftermarket fans live? I have one of the aftermarket fans and since I have already modded it to fit the radiator, I may as well try the Spal controller on it.

The fan and a controller will end up being about $350 or so. That's not too much for this fan IF it will live for me.

So, what do you think? Will it fly?
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KOS

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#838196 - 10/25/10 08:58 PM Re: Mercedes fan upgrade [Re: DaveRS23]
gtx69 Offline
super gas

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 1476
Dave you need to check with spal.I don't think the controller will work with the mercedes fan as it pulls too many amps to use a spal controller's.Just my double check the info.

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#838197 - 10/25/10 09:01 PM Re: Mercedes fan upgrade [Re: DaveRS23]
Andrewh Offline
master

Registered: 02/17/03
Posts: 7926
reading the instructions, I would say you have a decent shot at it working.

It basically looks like it will prevent the fans from drawing more than 30 amps. Which is what kills them.

However, you have a couple of maybe's in the list.
First it says in the instructions it may not work with non-spal fans.

Second it will shut down if it pulls 30 amps for more than x min. It requires a 5 degree cool down to slow the fan down. I know at full speed the fan can do it, but no clue what it is pulling at that speed, and if 30 amps is enough.

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#838198 - 10/25/10 09:37 PM Re: Mercedes fan upgrade [Re: Andrewh]
gtx69 Offline
super gas

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 1476
When i had it running at 20 amps it seems like it was on low .You could tell feel hear the different between 20 and 40 amps

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#838199 - 10/25/10 10:57 PM Re: Mercedes fan upgrade [Re: gtx69]
hooziewhatsit Online   content
master

Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 2973
Loc: State of Jefferson
I just looked at the instructions for this controller:
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Spal-Pulse-Width-Modulated-Fan-Controller,35700.html

and I don't believe it will work with the mercedes fan. From the wiring diagram, all of the current for the fan goes through the controller. Apparently they're using a 30A mosfet, or something else to switch the current, leading to the 30A limit.

Looking at the first fan thread, there are two heavy wires going into the fan, and another smaller trigger wire. The trigger wire is where the PWM to control the speed would go, while the other two wires carry the heavy current. (I'm SWAGing that this is true)

In other words, ideally, the controller itself is not switching the current for the fan; it's just telling the fan to turn on and off really fast. If the signal is on for 50% of the time, the fan will run at (roughly) half speed. Same thing for 25% or 75% input on the trigger wire.

I just looked at a few other controllers, and they all seem to work like the SPAL one above; just a relay to turn on/off the fan at different temperatures.

If we can't find a controller that will do that, I could whip out a design that would probably cost $40-$50 that would do just what we need; a simple PWM output corresponding to the engine temperature.
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If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.

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#838200 - 10/26/10 08:48 AM Re: Mercedes fan upgrade [Re: hooziewhatsit]
feets Offline
Senior Management

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 27320
Loc: Irving, TX
If you could come up with a controller, I could send you a fan to play with.
That would be an awesome combination for our cars.

BTW... the heavy leads on the fan carry 39 amps when on. They flash up to 50 amps on start up. There is an easy start spin up. You can see it in the video I made of the fan.

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#838201 - 10/26/10 01:12 PM Re: Mercedes fan upgrade [Re: feets]
gtx69 Offline
super gas

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 1476
Hooziewhatsit
I would be interested in a couple of the controllers .

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#838202 - 10/26/10 06:53 PM Re: Mercedes fan upgrade [Re: hooziewhatsit]
DaveRS23 Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 4924
Loc: Benton, IL.
I would really like to go this way since the fan is such a monster and is already mounted on my radiator. Let me know if you are going to make some of these up, I would certainly take one.

Thanks for the help on this!
_________________________
KOS

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#838203 - 10/26/10 07:40 PM Re: Mercedes fan upgrade [Re: DaveRS23]
bonefish Offline
master

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 7131
Loc: s.w.fl
Quote:

I would really like to go this way since the fan is such a monster and is already mounted on my radiator. Let me know if you are going to make some of these up, I would certainly take one.

Thanks for the help on this!


me too

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#838204 - 10/26/10 08:23 PM Re: Mercedes fan upgrade [Re: bonefish]
Von Offline
master

Registered: 10/15/03
Posts: 3698
Loc: NE Oklahoma
Id be interested in a controller also.
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#838205 - 10/26/10 11:35 PM Re: Mercedes fan upgrade [Re: Von]
hooziewhatsit Online   content
master

Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 2973
Loc: State of Jefferson
I guess there's enough interest to continue with the thought...

After looking at it some more, I don't think I'll be able to do it the really cheap way I may have to throw a microcontroller at it

It would cost a little more, but it would have much better control over turn on and full speed temperatures, and would open the door to switching the current of the fan itself (for an HHR type fan without a trigger wire , and no wimpy 30A limit either ).

I think it would work best if we could install another temp sender that I can test and that I know the graph of voltage/resistance is, like this cheap one.

-OR-

I make a little box that puts out an adjustable duty cycle (up to ~90% on) whenever it's turned on. ie, you can change the speed of the fan, but it'd be running at that speed all the time. This would be the cheapest solution.

(Should we keep this in this thread, or start another one?)

_________________________
If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.

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#838206 - 10/27/10 09:45 AM Re: Mercedes fan upgrade [Re: hooziewhatsit]
gtx69 Offline
super gas

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 1476
My you are the man.What are the costs going to be?We do need a controller for that fan.I myself never adjust my fan.What the point in it.I want full speed.But i can live with whatever the group wants.I just want it to last.

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#838207 - 10/27/10 09:53 AM Re: Mercedes fan upgrade [Re: hooziewhatsit]
feets Offline
Senior Management

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 27320
Loc: Irving, TX
If it would be easier and more cost effective you could build a two step controller that works off an inexpensive sending unit. Have the fan running around 60% at 180 degrees and step it up to 90% at 200 degrees.

My experience with these fans tells me that should be more than sufficient for our cars.

The new style Mercedes fan Andrewh and I use runs at 90% when running with a constant 12 volts on the trigger. If you could cycle the controller quickly enough to approximate that it should be fine with the less desirable fans. The factory runs them at those speeds.
The failure seems to come from the constant voltage heating up the controller.

Shoot me a PM with your address and I'll send you the dismounted fan motor I have and a bracket to hold it. That way you can play with it and not worry about having a 27" spinning blade chopping fingers and creating a hurricane.

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#838208 - 10/27/10 10:19 AM Re: Mercedes fan upgrade [Re: feets]
Andrewh Offline
master

Registered: 02/17/03
Posts: 7926
I think it would be simpler to create something like the dash vr instead.
don't bother with a signal from anything.

Wire it so that all it does is pulse the voltage.

So you have your temp unit set to turn on a relay.
the relay provdes power to your do hicky and that just pluses power to the single wire on the fan that turns it on.

you would have to find out the max pulse cycles for it and set it up for that.
simpler and should be cheaper.

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#838209 - 10/27/10 07:51 PM Re: Mercedes fan upgrade [Re: hooziewhatsit]
DaveRS23 Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 4924
Loc: Benton, IL.
I am flexible on how you go about it. But I would prefer to either have a low and a high speed that the controller triggers itself with adjustable temps or a variable speed controller.

Or said another way, I would rather not have just one speed or have to manually control it.



I hope you do this.
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KOS

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