Mercedes fan upgrade

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 11/16/10 07:08 AM

I've tried drive frequencies from 30Hz, to 22kHz. At the higher frequencies, it still runs with a 10% PWM, but the fan speed doesn't change from the max.

Without getting a mercedes on my Oscope, or getting documentation outlining how to control the fan, or even a wiring diagram, it looks like we'll be stuck with on/off

However, since it will have a microcontroller in it, if I figure it out eventually, you can just send it back to me, I'll update the code, and you'll have variable speed

Edit: I just shoved some wire into the plug to go to the 4th terminal. On the oscilloscope, it just goes high (12v) the entire time the fan is running.

Usually, a circuit like this would have a resistor pulling it to 12v, then a switch to pull it to ground for each rotation. I'm not seeing anything like that.

Posted By: bonefish

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 11/17/10 05:43 PM

OK,i scored this fan locally for cheap so i picked it up,its from a 2001 c320,its obviously not the ideal wire fan,how close are we to making it work for a sinple hot rod carberated application,no efi or ac.

Attached picture 6306227-fan(Small).jpg

Posted By: Bens_Coronets

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 11/18/10 02:57 AM

hooziewhatsit,

Are you testing w/o the blades? If so the PWM might not lower the RPM due to not having a load/drag on the motor. It could simply be that the internal magnets can run the motor at the full speed with lots of PWM (lower % on time) with no fan dragging it down.

Another test I can think of is to just add a resistor inline to lower the voltage. It'd be interesting what it's output is at 6 Volts.

But then I run into the problem of how to get 6 volts. I thought I'd easily find a 12V to 6V 'box' for use on pre-50's cars with a mixed power system. However I can't seem to find such an animal...

too bad the batteryies don't have a 6V tap on them.

Ben

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 11/18/10 06:16 AM

Yea, the fan has the blades installed. It's also strapped to the old radiator out of my truck, so it has to pull air through that as well.

At this point, I just need to do the circuit board layout and have those made (will take a couple weeks to turn around), then assemble, test, and ship

And they'll be re-programmable on my end, so if we get variable speed working, they can be sent back for an upgrade.

The fan itself is 600w. To put a resistor inline, it would have to burn off 300w in heat

To make a power converter, it would also have to support about 300w, which is quite a bit. Since MB has variable speeds, I know it's possible; I just haven't figured out how (yet).

At this point I'm contemplating only having one knob to select a target temperature. It will likely turn on a few degrees above that, and turn off a few below it. Thoughts?

Posted By: bonefish

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 11/18/10 01:10 PM

Quote:

Yea, the fan has the blades installed. It's also strapped to the old radiator out of my truck, so it has to pull air through that as well.

At this point, I just need to do the circuit board layout and have those made (will take a couple weeks to turn around), then assemble, test, and ship

And they'll be re-programmable on my end, so if we get variable speed working, they can be sent back for an upgrade.

The fan itself is 600w. To put a resistor inline, it would have to burn off 300w in heat To make a power converter, it would also have to support about 300w, which is quite a bit. Since MB has variable speeds, I know it's possible; I just haven't figured out how (yet).

At this point I'm contemplating only having one knob to select a target temperature. It will likely turn on a few degrees above that, and turn off a few below it. Thoughts?

keep up the good work

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 11/18/10 02:58 PM

few things.
I never saw a report on a continous test with something charging the system to show 40 amps to the fan.

can you send the proto type instead of getting boards made? would rather check that out before you outlay money.

The single pot is fine I think, but you probably want a 10 degree spread on the off. maybe even 15.

I have a 195 thermostate in mine, Have the fan come on at 210. Shuts off at 195, but it gets down to 189 before the fan shuts off, and it gets there pretty fast.

Posted By: gtx69

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 11/18/10 05:34 PM

We do need to know if it's going to be able to run at 40 amps for at least an hour of steady running .In some traffic you are stuck in line and the fan will be cycling on and off.Need an actual test.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 11/18/10 08:45 PM

Quote:

few things.
I never saw a report on a continous test with something charging the system to show 40 amps to the fan.

can you send the proto type instead of getting boards made? would rather check that out before you outlay money.

Yea, I can send the prototype first. I'll have to wrap it up since all the pins on the bottom are exposed. The board is roughly 4"x5" (final board will be much smaller). I also need to port the code to the cheaper microcontroller, so sending the prototype will give me time to do that.

Andrew, you're still planning on using an on/off relay to trigger it, correct?

The wider temp spread is a good idea.

When I had it running just off the battery, it should have been pulling its 40A. The battery just didn't last long enough for a proper test.

My battery charger is only good for 10A. I think I can kludge up a way run it off of the truck while it's idling

(Then I'll see if my '70s alt can keep up with it

, and it just started snowing, and I don't have a garage

)

Weird side note: last night I was testing different drive frequencies, and found one frequency, with a specific PWM value, that would make the fan turn on for a second, then turn off. Before it stopped spinning it turned on again for a second, etc. I did quite a bit of testing around those frequencies, but didn't find anything useful

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 11/18/10 08:51 PM

yeah, currently my fan is wired so the trigger wire goes to a relay.
my computer supplies ground to that relay turning on the fan.

You will have to let me know what you need to turn it off and on via your controler instead, and I will rewire accordingly, but my plan was to take the trigger wire off and put it to your controler, and then the ground signal from the computer to your controler, or the power signal from that relay to your controler.

I might be able to wire a temp switch to it,not sure. if you send the one you tested with, I will pull one of my sensors for the dash and put it in to make sure it works.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 11/18/10 09:23 PM

Ok, I think I know how to make it work on your system with a minimal amount of changes. It'll be easier to draw a picture. (it'll involve moving one wire to make the relay switch ground, rather than 12v, to my controller).

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 11/18/10 09:35 PM

I understand how to do that. not an issue. if you just tell me what your inputs are and outputs. I will set it up.

Posted By: DaveRS23

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 11/19/10 02:28 AM

Gitten close, gitten close!

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 11/20/10 11:57 PM

Hooked the fan up to the car today and ran it for about 30 minutes before it got too cold and had to retreat. Even the car was having trouble keeping the voltage up when it was running

The mercedes fan seemed to run just fine with a 90% pwm at 100Hz. It's not a 'true' test either, since the radiator it was strapped to was empty, and not dumping heat on the controller.

So, at this point, I'll finish up the code and do some more testing, then ship it off to Andrew for more in car testing.

One question though: with the 5 minute ignore button, what do you want to happen if the AC comes on 3 minutes later? 8 minutes later? I assume we'd turn the fan on in both cases, and let the AC override the other command?

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 11/21/10 03:21 AM

so you are going to have a seperate input for the trinary?
if so then yes, that would be fine, but my guess is, that the car would be overheating too if you got an a/c signal to start the fan.

Perhaps the momentary isn't a great idea. or 5 min is too long.
The fan barely gets spun up before the trinary kicks it off based on only a/c input, so it doesn't take a lot of air flow to keep the a/c working.

perhaps one min is a better delay, or just leave it off if it is too much trouble. very few people will probably use it. the car doesn't over heat with the fan running. just thought I could save a bit of energy and heat by giving it a chance to shut off after I get to highway speeds.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 11/21/10 04:57 AM

Yes, I was thinking separate inputs for AC and the 5 minute ignore. This is still the prototype, so features are 'fluid'.

I guess for now we just want to verify that the 90% pwm keeps the fan from dieing, so that's what we'll focus on.

I'll see if I have time tomorrow to finish it up, then send it out early next week.

Posted By: feets

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 11/22/10 05:57 PM

Sorry about being out of this thread for so long. I took the week off work to concentrate on building the hot rod.
Andrewh came over last night to finish up the wiring and help be drop the engine in.
I won't have it running this week. There simply isn't time.
Once it's up and alive, we can either test the fan controller on his car or the hot rod. Both of us have charging systems that can easily handle running the fans.

I'll dig around and see if I can come up with another old style fan.

What was the longest you were able to run the fan?
If you still have the 30 or 40 amp alternator in your truck it will definately have a hard time. You will need to keep the RPM up.

Posted By: bonefish

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 11/30/10 03:42 PM

its been awfull quiet,are you guys still workin on sumthin us elektronical chalenged can hook up?

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 11/30/10 07:52 PM

Quiet? Me?

I was hoping to send it off before thanksgiving, but then we got 1.5 feet of snow, and 10* temps since then

I'm still waiting for the temperature sensor pigtail to show up. If Andrew just wants to ground the sensor input to turn the fan on, I can probably send it out tomorrow. Otherwise it'll take a little longer to get the temp sensor mapped out.

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 11/30/10 09:15 PM

I can just ground it, but if you complete it and send a sensor with it, I can plug it in to my car and test the whole thing I guess.

Posted By: feets

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 11/30/10 09:18 PM

It depends on how thoroughly you want it tested.
Slap it on a fan and let it run all day or put it in the car and drive a few hundred miles?

Andrewh has a new style fan in his car. It's also a different shroud so the fans we use won't bolt up. We would have to test the controller on his existing fan.
I can change to an old style on the hot rod but it's not running yet. Close, but not there.

My concern is powering the fan for a long time without burning it out. I think that if you can get it to run more than 5 or 6 hours straight then it's done.

If you can't supply that kind of amperage, I guess we can slap it on the hot rod and try to fire it up ASAP. If it'll run all day long we'll be set.

If your temp sensor lead is something common or easy to tap then we can do it now.

Posted By: JonsGottaDusta

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 12/01/10 08:39 AM

This is a great thread. It needs to go in the archives when it's done.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 12/01/10 09:04 AM

Doesn't Andrews fan work fine with a constant 12v? If so, ideally, we'd find a fan that needs the PWM. If the fan works fine with a constant 12v, it should still work fine with the PWM, so we haven't really proven that the PWM keeps the controller from dieing.

I don't want to make you rush to finish the hotrod, but sometimes a kick in the rear is handy

I'm about to go ahead and get a 175A tuff stuff alt. Then I could actually install this fan and test it. It also started snowing again tonight, soo...I really need a garage

I did get the sensor tested and mapped out today, so about all I need to do now is add that to the code, then make the prototype more rugged, and send it to someone.

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 12/01/10 03:09 PM

That is correct. The fan I have wired up runs fine on 12 volts.
My plan was to get another fan from feets, and wire that up to my car and your controler.
I just unplug mine and plug in the other.

I would at first just set it to ground so the fan came on full time and just leave my car idling in the driveway for a while. I can place the loose fan in front of the rad to pull air to keep the car cool and monitor temps with the computer.
Have some tuning to do anyway.
Based on the other threads, if it lives an hour or 2, it means it is working better than 12 volts straight.

Once we have that down I verify your controler works in running driving conditions with my fan till feets gets his car running and can run both on the street at the same time.

And in the off time, I can hook yours back up with a charger or idle in my driveway to make sure it lasts more than a couple of hours.

Depends on how impatient people get to have one, and your lead time on boards as to how much time we have.

I figure a month to be sure everything works as expected. But that is based on using feets car too. if the indivdual pieces check out, over the next week or two, it could be just that long.

Posted By: feets

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 12/01/10 07:06 PM

I have an old style fan available for use.

Unless you're concerned with heat being a factor, I don't see the reason for shipping it to us.

Can you run it on your truck with a battery charger helping the alternator carry the load?
If not, can you simply have the fan suck the air out of a space heater for a couple hours?

I still think that if the controller can run the fan for a few hours without either of them failing the job is done.
The only concern left is making sure the controller will not fall off the car.

Since you're only using the controller as a trigger it can be mounted anywhere in the car. People could stuff it in the trunk under the package tray if they wanted to. It only needs a few small wires. All the big power will run straight to the fan.

Posted By: feets

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 12/01/10 07:09 PM

Quote:

This is a great thread. It needs to go in the archives when it's done.

Once we have a working system I could rewrite everything with better pics and descriptions for an archival post if that's what Tom wants to do.

The fan fits other Mercedes too but the C-class is the easiest one to find. When I dug around for the others on eBag I kept getting the same 15 ads for lame 7 amp parts store fans.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 12/01/10 10:10 PM

Once Tuff Stuff gets back to me, I'll probably just buy the high amp alternator. Then I can do a proper test here. My charger is only 10A, which still may not be enough with the truck to power it

The heat I was wondering about was the heat on the fans controller from sitting on the hot radiator, not my board. The microcontroller I got is good to 300*F, so it should be just fine under the hood

I was under the impression that the fan I have is a (damaged) OEM Mercedes one, and that it would work fine with a constant 12v? And if so, I'd prefer to test on a fan that requires the PWM.

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 12/01/10 10:41 PM

damaged maybe. as in the shroud might have cracks or a piece broken off.
but that is the style that requires a controler to not die.

so that will be the type to run your test on.
it will not handle a full 12 volts with 40 amps supplied.
someone ran it for a long time as long as the supply was less than 40 amps. his charger has a variable out put, so supplying 20 and 30 amps was fine. but it burned out after supplying 40amps.

Posted By: gtx69

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 12/01/10 10:56 PM

I ran the test with the charger it would not run with the 40 amps for long. Anything less it would run for hours but it never reached full speed.

Posted By: feets

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 12/01/10 11:35 PM

The fan I sent you has a metal heat sink. That is the type of fan that will fail.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 12/02/10 01:08 AM

Quote:

The fan I sent you has a metal heat sink. That is the type of fan that will fail.

I guess I was mistaken then. I'll go ahead and get the alternator and do some testing here.

Now my only dilemma is on the temp sensor circuit. It looks like I can either detect a missing sensor, and fail-safe turn the fan on, OR, I can have the sensor grounded to turn the fan on.

If I just assUme the sensor isn't there, and it'll be grounded at some point, I would hate for an engine to overheat if the sensor got disconnected. Or, I just require a sensor, so grounding won't be an option

Or, grounding is an option, but you need to install a jumper or flip a switch, or some such thing.

Electronics design can be complicated

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 12/02/10 03:38 AM

well it is an either or thing not both.

A dip switch would be fine, marked ground on one side sensor on the other, OR
can you have an extra lead for ground instead of wiring through the sensor wires?

so if the extra wire sees ground fan comes on.

Not sure what you are getting from the sensor though. If it is resistance or some voltage, so not sure what you would do with the empty leads.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 12/02/10 05:47 AM

The sensor is a resistor that changes resistance with temperature. I'd put it in a voltage divider so I can read the voltage, and from that calculate the resistance and the temperature. Without the sensor hooked up, the voltage will read higher than it would with the sensor, so I can detect that. I can also detect if it's shorted to ground.

The problem is I have no way of knowing, if the sensor input is high, if it's because the sensor isn't hooked up, or if it's waiting to be grounded. Adding another 'grounding' input would require a jumper or resistor put in place of the sensor.

So I think the only solution would be a dipswitch to change modes. Unless we get rid of the no sensor fail safe (which I don't really want to do).

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 12/02/10 03:11 PM

so let me get this straight.

you are applying voltage to the sensor line?
your expectation is if the sensor fails it will not read any resistance?
What if it fails and goes to ground? becomes an open short?
I don't know the typical failure of the sensors you chose so just asking.

so your logic only allows one choice?

so if line goes to 12 volts turn on fan.
Or switch, if line goes to ground turn on fan?

What I was asking is if you could have a seperate input.
so if line 1 goes to 12 volts turn on fan. or if line 1 reads x volts turn on fan.

if line 2 goes to ground turn on fan.

What does the sensor output look like to you?

Posted By: feets

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 12/02/10 04:21 PM

Andy, the sensor should supply a ground.
No sensor, no ground.
That means the controller thinks the car never gets up to temperature and the fan never comes on. Engine go *poof*

A fail safe would mean no resistance to ground (missing sensor) turns on the fan.

The other plan would be to supply a ground via manual switch to trigger the fan.

See the problem? One says no ground turns on the fan. The other says no ground, no fan. It would require logic to be added that determines what to do when either switch goes to ground or remains open and which to ignore.

A dipswitch would tell the controller which program to follow.

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 12/02/10 05:26 PM

2 things. one, if there is a second line, that should not affect the sensor line logic.

two, I was wondering if short to ground is a failure mode for temp sensors in gneral.
That is I understand open, IE no resistance at all, but what if it shorts to ground instead?
or is that a high resistance reading?

you would have to put in a jumper for the sensor line if you used the ground line instead. so maybe no better than just a switch for the single sensor line to switch from reading ground to resistance.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 12/02/10 07:30 PM

Quote:

See the problem? One says no ground turns on the fan. The other says no ground, no fan. It would require logic to be added that determines what to do when either switch goes to ground or remains open and which to ignore.

A dipswitch would tell the controller which program to follow.

Exactly! Said much more elegantly than I could come up with

Quote:

two, I was wondering if short to ground is a failure mode for temp sensors in gneral.
That is I understand open, IE no resistance at all, but what if it shorts to ground instead?
or is that a high resistance reading?

I'm not sure what a normal failure mode for the sensor itself would be. If it shorted to ground internally, the voltage I read would go to 0v, which would never happen normally, so I can turn the fan on. If it failed open (same as unplugging it), the voltage would go high, which would also never happen normally, so I again can turn the fan on.

The failure I was more concerned about was if/when the wiring got disturbed and the sensor came unhooked from the controller, assuming it's set up to look for the sensor. In that case I need to turn the fan on.

Using a switch to turn the fan on implies one of the above failure modes, so I need some way to know why a sensor isn't detected.

Posted By: feets

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 12/02/10 07:56 PM

Default everything to turn the fan on.

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 12/02/10 08:15 PM

would a ground give you 0 volts too?

then the problem is when I don't supply the ground, you read it as sensor unplugged?

that is where the switch is needed to say ground or sensor?

Posted By: feets

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 12/02/10 08:25 PM

Andy, you're making my headache worse.

A ground would show a full circuit. The controller is looking for a ground through the sensor.
Think of the sensor as a variable ground. The hotter the sensor, the stronger the signal. Get it hot enough and it'll act like a wire going straight to ground.
A cold sensor has a weaker signal.

An unplugged sensor reads the same as a frozen sensor. There is no appreciable circuit. The fan will never come on because the controller is waiting for the engine to build heat.

It's either/or.
Run a switch and forget that a sensor ever existed.
Use a sensor and forget you ever heard of a switch.

Pick one.

No doubt you're going to ask for a sensor with a manual override for tinkering purposes.

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 12/02/10 08:52 PM

that isn't what I asked.

He states that
If it shorted to ground internally, the voltage I read would go to 0v, which would never happen normally, so I can turn the fan on. If it failed open (same as unplugging it), the voltage would go high, which would also never happen normally, so I again can turn the fan on.

so, I infer that if it went to ground, it would show infinte resistance, giving him a return of 0 volts.

which would work for the ground check instead of a sensor.

however, the problem occurs when the ground goes away, ie open circuit.
This too would trip the fan on due to the returning 12 volts.
which is why there needs to be a switch to determin if you are reading from a sensor or a ground.

IF I understood correctly.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 12/02/10 09:06 PM

Quote:

so, I infer that if it went to ground, it would show infinte resistance, giving him a return of 0 volts.

Incorrect. Infinite resistance would look like an open circuit (no sensor). Interesting side note: at -40F, the sensor has a resistance of ~100,000 ohms. This will give a voltage very close to the no sensor voltage. So, if you start up at -40, the fan may run for a minute until it warms up a little more

Quote:

however, the problem occurs when the ground goes away, ie open circuit.
This too would trip the fan on due to the returning 12 volts.
which is why there needs to be a switch to determin if you are reading from a sensor or a ground.

IF I understood correctly.

Correct

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 12/02/10 09:22 PM

ok, if you want to put in a cheap switch or cheaper jumper to tell it to read for ground that would be best.

for the intial testing I will just leave it sensor wired without the sensor so it stays on full time just to try and burn out the fan.

Once I verify the fan is good to go with your controller, I will test out the controler alone for drivablility.
If you mail a sensor with it, I will test out both logic circuits. with a ground and with a temp sensor.

Posted By: feets

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 12/02/10 10:23 PM

Quote:

Quote:

so, I infer that if it went to ground, it would show infinte resistance, giving him a return of 0 volts.

Incorrect.

See Andy? You're giving us both headaches.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 12/09/10 07:07 AM

So I was able to do some more testing today. I think this gauge is more accurate than the one in the dash

It seems to read about 10*F cooler than the one in the dash. It is on the other side of the thermostat housing coming from the other head, which could explain some of the difference.

A month or two ago I replaced the 180* thermostat with a stock one (192* or 195*?). Right at 195 on the fan controller, it dropped back to 190* as the thermostat opened, then creeped up to 194ish. Meanwhile the gauge in the dash was sitting at 205*.

Anywho, the temperature reading seems to work great. I'm very pleased with the resolution and apparent accuracy I'm getting. I have a 175A alternator coming so I can test the fan without killing any batteries. (

)

Posted By: gtx69

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 12/09/10 04:59 PM

Don't forget to update your wiring for the alternator

Posted By: DaveRS23

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 12/10/10 03:11 AM

While we're waiting for the controller, I would like to ask a basic question. Do you recommend locating the temp switch for the controller on the w/p housing or in the radiator?

And, if you prefer the radiator, how important is it's place in the radiator?

I think I would prefer to put my guage sender in the w/p housing and then put the sender for the fan controller in the radiator.

Thoughts, opinions?

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 12/10/10 02:49 PM

more accurate is in the housing, block, or sb intake where water flows.

you can put it in the rad, but you should have it near the water inlet as close as possible to where the upper hose comes in.

Either will work for an adjustible on/off, as you can base it off actual temps rather than the non adjustible which will depend on where you place it if it gets to the temp preset.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 12/21/10 07:53 PM

A week and a half later, apparently my alternator finally shipped. On the phone they said they could turn it around in a day.

It'll probably take another week going ground from Connecticut to Oregon.

Ohwell, I'll have another update once it shows up

Posted By: feets

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 12/21/10 08:01 PM

Cool. I should have shipped you my alternator just to play with it. It's back on the hot rod now.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 12/21/10 08:05 PM

Nevermind

For some reason Summit's system cut off the last half of the tracking number when they emailed it to me. After a quick live chat, it should be here on the 24th (just in time for christmas

)

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 12/21/10 08:28 PM

better to wait till after the holidays anyway. too many packages going out might get lost in the shuffle. bad for a protype.

Posted By: feets

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 12/23/10 11:02 PM

Andy, he's going to do some on-vehicle testing before he sends it to us.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 12/23/10 11:53 PM

Quote:

Andy, he's going to do some on-vehicle testing before he sends it to us.

Correct. I've driven it a few times so I can monitor the temperature sensing, and it seems to work fine. With it running around 195*, if I turn it off for a bit, it will read ~215* from heatsoak shortly. After starting up again, the temp drops like a rock. It still reads 10* cooler across the entire range than the gauge in my dash.

The alt showed up today. Now I need to hack on it to shorten the output stud to make it fit

There goes whatever warranty I had

Posted By: feets

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 12/24/10 04:35 PM

When I popped the head gasket in the hot rod my temps would hit 230 fairly quickly. After stopping and idling for 3 or 4 minutes the temp would be back down to the thermostat. Not bad for still pumping exhaust gasses into the coolant.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 12/30/10 02:27 AM

Success

Finally got the alternator installed, and got a break in the snow today, so I was able to let the fan run for an hour. It got cold and dark, so I didn't go any longer than that

It otherwise seemed to work just fine; no smoke from its controller, or turning off by itself.

I think at this point I just need to finish up the circuit board and start moving forward with building them.

Posted By: gtx69

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 12/30/10 02:45 AM

Posted By: DaveRS23

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 12/30/10 03:34 AM

Quote:

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 01/03/11 03:14 AM

Ok, I have some more questions.

Once the temperature reaches the set temp, the fan turns on. How many degrees do you want it to go down before turning the fan off? 5? 10? 15?

I have room for another dip switch to select between a big drop and lower drop in temperature.

Well, I guess I only had one question

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 01/03/11 04:01 AM

I would say 10 degrees should be fine. And that is a pretty short run.

maybe 30 sec to 1 min if that at idle.

The reason I say that is based on what I do.

I have 195 degree thermostate.

So I let the fan come on at 205 to 210. if it takes it down 10 degrees it is right at the thermostate. It actually takes it down to 189ish before it closes I guess and the fan shuts off.

I don't think I would feel comfortable letting the engine get much higher than 210 to 220. Though I am sure I have hit 230ish at some point.

guess it would depend on if you had the turn on point still adjustible.
if you can't make the off adjustible, then I would do 10 degrees and if you want 20 for the switch. but I would be afraid it would never shut off at that point.
guess you could put up a poll.
see if there is a preference to the fan on temp and if they would want it to fight down from a higher temp.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 01/03/11 04:52 AM

The turn on temperature will be adjustable from 160 to 240. (I don't think I need to go any lower, or higher?).

Then once the fan turns on it'll run until the temp drops 10 degrees?

With the switch it can drop 5 or 10. 7 or 15. Or any other two temps that make sense.

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 01/03/11 04:53 PM

I am guessing the dip switch is only a doubler.

I agree your range is fine.

I don't really see any use for it right now. I would just set it at 10 degrees and leave it.

save the switch for something else, like maybe a constant on. something that bypasses all logic and just shunts the fan on?

Posted By: gtx69

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 01/03/11 05:16 PM

Posted By: feets

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 01/03/11 08:54 PM

10 degrees should be plenty.

Did you get the alternator installed and the truck ready to test?

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 01/03/11 09:15 PM

Quote:

10 degrees should be plenty.

Did you get the alternator installed and the truck ready to test?

Yep, the truck is all ready. Last week the fan ran for an hour without issue.

I just finished trying one last thing to get variable speed, but it didn't work

Time to finish up the circuit board layout and move on.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 01/07/11 10:30 PM

Everything look good?

I should be able to order the boards today or tomorrow. A week and a half to get them, a few more days for assemble and test, then they should be done

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 01/07/11 11:04 PM

I can only think of 4 leads.
power, ground, sensor, power to fan.

What are your extras?
pins? standard like a floppy drive connector, or what is your plan.

also do you have a better idea on how to water proof it?

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 01/07/11 11:23 PM

Starting on the left, there is
Power
ground
Trigger to fan
Status output
AC input
Sensor input
sensor ground

I couldn't find an ideal box, so I found one that will completely enclose the board. You (or me) can drill a hole in the box to run the wires through. Then you use the screw terminals to attach them to the board. I'm going to align the hole on mine to be pointing down (with be either side or the end of the box). The board will also be sprayed with a protective coating to help prevent any small splashes/condensation from doing anything bad.

The plastic black box is ~2"x4"x0.88" and has mounting tabs. The board is ~1.5" square.

The DIP switches are pretty tiny, and so is the knob to set the turn on temperature. Basically you'll set them with the top of the box off, run it up to temp to make sure it all works, then you can put the top on and forget about it. When I ship them out I'll have the temp set to ~210*.

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 01/07/11 11:50 PM

do you have a picture of the box? or link.
might make a sugguestion.

go ahead and run wires out of the box for some of these folks.
or better yet a replacable plug of some sort. Lest too much trimming cause a problem. might be too much on the plug thing.

if it is a clam shell type I agree wires out the bottom and lift off cover should be "water proof" enough.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 01/07/11 11:59 PM

The box will look approximately like this one (it's a stock photo, so the dimensions may be off). link.

The screw terminal will look like this one link. Personally, I'd prefer to run the wires into the box and use the screw terminals, than have a bundle of butt-connectors just outside

I thought about adding a connector, but that would likely add another $10+ to the price

The good ones are not cheap. And then I need to have the boxes cut to fit the plug, make sure it's sealed, etc.

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 01/08/11 12:14 AM

not loving the box to be honest.
too many places it could leak.

is there more of a sealed on the top kind? clips on the side instead of screw holes that could leak?

not sure how to explain it, but if the top were screwed in from the bottom that would be a good choice.

how are you mounting the board to it?

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 01/08/11 01:24 AM

A similar style looks like this. link, but to change anything, you'd have to unmount the entire box, then take the top off.

I'm not seeing any plastic boxes, with a mounting flange, that are sealed with a gasket. I have some similar plastic boxes from other projects that close tight enough that unless it's submerged in water, they pretty much don't leak at all. A casual splash would be fine. It also wouldn't be too hard to run a thin strip of RTV around the edge before putting the lid on.

There are plenty of aluminum boxes with seals and flanges, but the cost goes from ~$4, to ~$12-15+ each. And if the customer drills the wire hole, metal flakes going everywhere could be a concern.

The board will sit on four 1/4" tall plastic standoffs that have a sticky base.

Posted By: feets

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 01/08/11 03:54 AM

Use the box with as few holes as possible and ship it.

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 01/08/11 04:24 AM

the second is better, but doesn't have to mount with a gasket, just overlap.
sort of like the reverse of tupper ware.
you know how the lid has a bit of flap overlapping the container, just flipped over and the container has a lip over the base.

sticky mounts seem bad in an engine compartment.
can you put holes in the board and mount it with stand offs like the mother board in a computer case?

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 01/08/11 04:49 AM

not great but something like this might be better.
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062217

design not size or material.

or this is not too bad, but I would seal the sides.
http://electronicsusa.com/miniboxes4.html

if the insides of your first one look like this
http://www.okwenclosures.com/products/okw/robust/RB_G.jpg
then it isn't a big deal since the screws are outside the box area.

if not something like that or this
http://www.okwenclosures.com/products/okw/smart-box.htm

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 01/08/11 07:18 AM

Here's the datasheet for one of the boxes I liked. If you look at the rendering on the top right, you can see the flange around the edge of lid. The screws themselves should also seal pretty well. link
Here's a truly sealed box, but with no easy way I can think of to mount it to the car? link

If someone would just make the perfect box, this would be a lot easier

I'm not worried about the sticky standoffs vibrating off, if that's what you're wondering.

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 01/08/11 04:53 PM

2nd one is better.
to mount it, just drill holes in the bottom for a plate that is Z or L shaped so it stands off of whatever you mount it to. or spacers and straight through bolts/screws.

as for vibrating off, no. My issue is heat in the engine compartment will easily exceed 150 F and probably closer to 200F in the summer.
Either mouting vertically or horizontialy you may have problems if it is not solidly mounted to the box.

It looks like your design has a place for 4 holes. Just have them actually be holes. Computer board stand offs are fairly common and mount them in the box that way.

I know they will stick out past the bottom, but you need to mount the box off the mounting surface anyway to get the wires to clear.

oh and you may want to number at least 1 of the pins for wiring, so people have a reference when they look at the board. if not numbering them all, so your instructions can explain which one goes where.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 01/09/11 01:44 AM

Yes, there are 4 holes in each corner of the board. I guess I'm just being lazy, and don't want to drill and tap the holes for the standoffs

Although nylon standoffs really would work pretty well. And not that much more work for all 10 boxes I'll probably sell.

I can leave room around the board so you can drill two holes through the bottom of the box to mount it to the car.

I'll print out a label and have it on the inside of the box showing which wires go where, and how to set the dip switch.

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 01/09/11 04:31 AM

you still need a reference on the board so people are sure.
trust me on this, my job is to figure out how people can screw stuff up even with instructions.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 01/21/11 02:41 AM

Look what Fedex was nice enough to bring today

The components will be another few days, then assemble and test.

Quote:

you still need a reference on the board so people are sure.
trust me on this, my job is to figure out how people can screw stuff up even with instructions.

I can sometimes get 'too close' to whatever I'm working on, and forget to look at it like anyone else would. Stuff that's obvious to me... isn't to anyone else

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 01/21/11 04:21 AM

I understand. lots of really smart people that know their jobs well get tunnel vision expecting people to know exactly what they are talking about because they have been looking at it for days.

Always have to remind them and MYSELF, that a month from now, a year from now, if someone has to look at it again, if you don't put enough information down, even my own notes won't make sense.

And while you are atempting to do this on the inexpensive(cheap is the wrong word) for your fellow mopart members, it makes it even more important care is taken not to short cut the little things.

Posted By: feets

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 01/21/11 08:55 PM

Are you going to swing by and drop it in the car for me?

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 01/26/11 11:36 PM

Quote:

Are you going to swing by and drop it in the car for me?

Sure, then afterwards we can go to the dealership and I can figure out variable speed

(reminds me I need to order another small wire for the tach output).

First completed one. 1.6" square.

Attached picture 6440124-IMG_1300(Small).jpg

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 01/26/11 11:39 PM

And the two boxes. The bigger, completely sealed one, does have two spots to mount it under the lid, and outside of the seal

But the smaller one is, well, a lot smaller.

I'll probably include both when I send one to you for testing to get your thoughts

Attached picture 6440129-IMG_1302(Small).jpg

Posted By: gtx69

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 01/27/11 01:48 AM

Posted By: bonefish

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 01/27/11 02:28 AM

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 01/27/11 04:17 AM

gotta ask, what is the extra connector for?

screw downs hold down the wiring to it right?
so what is (looks like a floppy drive connector) on the board for?

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 01/27/11 05:18 AM

The white six pin header on the top edge is so I can program the microcontroller. The ones that ship out may or may not have it installed.

Yes, the flathead screw heads you see on the blue thing clamp/hold the wires. Just a standard screw terminal.

Posted By: bonefish

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 01/29/11 02:23 PM

one more ? what is used as the temp sensor?i just have a plain ole hotrod no AC or EFI just a motor and a rad.

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 01/29/11 04:18 PM

there are 3 ways to go.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ATM-2385/

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MSD-2310/

these two will work in the place of your normal temp sensor where ever that is screwed into(bb vs sb)or in some port that coolant passes.

or you can go simple if you don't have an extra port, or don't want to drill one.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HDA-3653/

which is self contained and just gives an on off setting instead but is in its own right adjustible for the temp it comes on and off.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 01/29/11 06:14 PM

Quote:

there are 3 ways to go.

I'm currently testing with a 'TX3T' GM temp sensor. They're $7 at rockauto. Summit has a 'TX3' sensor, for almost $30

Although any GM sensor should work.

There is also a pigtail for that particular sensor, but I don't have the part number handy.

In related news, I boiled the sensor on the stove and got a better resistance/temperature curve that should erase most of the 10*F difference I was getting.

I'll try to get a couple more built this weekend so I can send them your way for additional testing.

Posted By: feets

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 01/29/11 10:24 PM

Sounds good!

I've got a spare fan motor with a wire connector. I was thinking that you could cut the connector off the motor and make a jumper harness with that and the chassis side connector you have for your truck. Find a Mercedes and plug in the harness. You'd be able to read the signals on the jumper harness.

Andrewh's wife has a Mercedes. What she doesn't know won't hurt him.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 01/30/11 02:51 AM

Quote:

Sounds good!

I've got a spare fan motor with a wire connector. I was thinking that you could cut the connector off the motor and make a jumper harness with that and the chassis side connector you have for your truck. Find a Mercedes and plug in the harness. You'd be able to read the signals on the jumper harness.

Andrewh's wife has a Mercedes. What she doesn't know won't hurt him.

I could use a USB Oscilloscope anyways... I could get one, send it to you guys, then you can capture some waveforms at different speeds. Send me the pictures, and in theory I could figure it out from there

I don't think I know anyone here who has a Mercedes

I did order another small wire for the tach output so I can easily get to it on the fan I do have.

Posted By: DaveRS23

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 01/30/11 03:09 AM

I would like to retain the stock temp guage in the car. Will I have to use 2 senders, one for the guage and one for the fan controller? Or is there a simple way to use one temp switch for both?

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 01/30/11 04:39 AM

I think there are too many variables to allow "stock" sending units.
that is why most aftermarket setups require the chevy temp unit.

BUT... since this is temp adjustible, theorectically you could get up to temp, and turn the pot till it came on.

don't know how "common" the wave forms across mopars in general.

When we get one in, I will jumper my original sensor into it and see if it can read it just for the heck of it.

But realisically you should either tap a new hole, or use the probe type sensor listed above.
hooziewhatsit would have to comment to be sure.

As for sending that ociliscope, sure if you want. if it has capture we can do that, if not we can video tape segments for you and mail it back on dvd so you can see what you need that way. Just give me some guidelines on what you are looking for. a/c on, temp up etc.. Will have to be a static test obviously.

Feets will have to get another car side plug. I have an extra fan side plug. I guess if I have to we can canniblize his hot rod for it and hot wire the fan on full time while we run the car and extra fan through the ociliscope.

Obviously we will have to do it some day I take her car in for service instead of at home.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 01/30/11 06:02 AM

I'm really not sure if the stock sensor would work or not. Adding my board may or may not affect how the sensor in your dash reads as well. I'm also not sure what voltage the stock sensor uses (pulsed 5v, right?)

Like Andrew mentioned, you could hook it up, wait until the car gets to temp, then turn the pot down until the fan comes on (or until the status LED turns on, to see if it'll work). In fact, due to the small differences in temp sensors, this may be the best way for everyone to set the turn on temperature.

For the o-scope, here is the one I was thinking of getting. link

To use it, basically just need to hook one probe each to the trigger and tach lines. The software has a few settings, but by playing with it you should be able to figure it out. It looks like it does have the option to export/save data. I'd just need a copy of the waveforms at different fan speeds. Basically, put your special harness in between the fan and the plug in her car, then let it idle and warm up in the driveway. Capture some data at different speeds and you're done.

If that sounds like something you'd be willing to do, I'll get the oscope and we can go from there.

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 01/30/11 06:09 AM

yeah, I can do that. don't see it doing any harm. not sure if you will get anything useful, but I am game.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 02/04/11 12:28 AM

The oscilloscope just showed up, and it's pretty cool.

I also have a couple controller boards about ready to send your way for testing. If one of you wants to PM me an address, I'll get them out by Monday.

Posted By: bonefish

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 02/11/11 04:18 PM

any updates?put me on the list for a box.

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 02/11/11 05:32 PM

hasn't gotten to me yet. there has been some bad weather here for the last few weeks, and everything is a bit delayed.
will post when I get it and some test results after I get it wired up.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 02/11/11 09:45 PM

Quote:

hasn't gotten to me yet. there has been some bad weather here for the last few weeks, and everything is a bit delayed.
will post when I get it and some test results after I get it wired up.

I just checked the tracking on it, and it's currently sitting in Dallas. Big message at the top says weather may (

) affect the delivery of it.

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 02/14/11 08:37 PM

got the parts today.
not sure if I will have a chance to play with it till this weekend.
but thought I would let you know it is here.

Posted By: feets

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 02/14/11 11:26 PM

Quote:

got the parts today.

COOL!

When do we get to let all the smoke out of the box?

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 02/21/11 12:30 AM

So I got a chance to test it today.
I ran an old style fan for about an hour and a half continuously with the controler. About 2 and half hours total. Way longer than anyone else has gotten one to run, and way longer then should ever be necessary to run one.
I checked the different functions of the controler.
With a ground signal instead of a temp sensor, a ground signal for a/c.
With the 2 wire temp sensor he included and all of that worked as advertised.
The temps are a bit off compaired to what my efi says it is, but that could be either set of sensors being wrong. probably off by about 5 degrees or so. The 10 degree shut off is about 12 degress, but is fine.

The orignal sensor in my car does not activate the controler at all. Not sure it is worth pursuing or not, just use the after market type that you push into the rad fins if you don't want to tap another hole I guess.

Here are some pictures.
The two controlers.

Here is a reference so you get an idea of the size.
next to a voltage reg.

this one seals better, but I still have to test the black one to see if it will work.

Black one is more compact and looks better, but not sure about weather. mounting it inside should be fine.

got the basic wiring done enough for the default without a sensor to kick in and start the fan.

laid it infront of the car.

you can't see it, but I was walking around and kept hearing this crunching noise and caught sight of the fan mulching leaves in the driveway.
It moves a lot of air.

Then my other fan kicked in and things got bad.

you might not be able to tell, but that is a 4 gauge wire. Melted at the end.
Apparently that would be a weak link in my electrical setup.
Trying to run 2 fans pushing 50 amps just isn't good for my car.

cable end.
Here is the end off the alt.

notice the melted copper?

Well I patched it up, and made sure my alternator was still charging. has a bit of smoke damage on it, but still working. So don't try that at home.
It definalty proves my electrical system works and nothing else died on the car, but wow.

Figured out a different way to setup the fan, so that it might draw air through the radiator, so both fans didn't kick on.
At first I tried to raise it infront of the car, and pull air from the engine to the front. That did not help.
Here is what I came up with.

it is laying on the air cleaner, and the radiator. About 6 inches of open space between the two is where all the air is being pulled from the radiator.

The fan moves enough air, that it kept the car at 197 for an hour and a half. actually I let the real fan cycle first taking the temp down to 189, then turned this back on. It kept it at 193 to 196 for a while then it creeped up to 197 and held there for another half hour before I called it good.

I will get some water testing done tonight or tomorrow. Will probably be next week before I get the ociliscope work done to see if we can get the fan at a lesser speed. And I may do a few more endurance tests on the old fan with the controler since I have it wired up.

Anything else someone wants me to check?

Posted By: feets

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 02/21/11 03:33 AM

Those fans pull a constant 39 amps while running and flash to 50 amps on start up. With one fan running, add in your electric fuel pump and EFI system and you're looking at a 50 amp draw. When the second fan kicked in with a 50 amp flash your alternator was loaded down with 100 amps. That is far more than what any of us will be seeing with the exception of guys pushing eleventy billion watts worth of stereo amplifiers.

I guess that flashy stereo amplifier wiring kit you used on the alternator met it's match. A quality 4 gauge wire should be able to handle that load.
So, unless you have a killer charging system, don't run two of these fans at the same time.

Personally, I think it's awesome that the fan cooled your engine while laying on top like that. Some folks can't comprehend what we mean when we say these fans move stupid amounts of air.

I think the longest an old style (or aftermarket) fan ran wide open while wired directly was about 20 minutes. The PWM controller seems to do the trick. There is no reason one of these fans needs to run for an hour straight. Even with a blown head gasket the fan would cool the hot rod. Assuming you were caught in stop and go traffic during one of our 110 degree heat waves the fan would cycle off and on without allowing the engine to get to an overheat condition.

It's a good acid test. If the little black box does a fair job of protecting against water intrusion it'll be a winner.
If not, running two wires through the firewall would be an easy way to mount it under the dash.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 02/21/11 09:00 AM

Thanks for posting your findings

Now I just need to update my website and I'll post a link for where they can be purchased from. It'll be another week and a half until more components show up and I can assemble, test, and start shipping them. If you don't need/want variable speed, you can get one now. Otherwise wait a little longer until I know if I need to add hardware, or if it's just a software change.

I'm also considering making another controller that would add variable speed to any 'normal' fan that does not use a trigger wire (like the other Mercedes fan).

Posted By: Pat_Whalen

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 02/21/11 04:36 PM

Just wanted to jump in here and congratulate you guys on some awesome work

Always nice tracking the development of something like this.

I'd like to come full circle on this and get some clarification.

The PWM controller is used in conjunction with the aftermarket fan, correct? The cheaper of the two units that can be found on eBay? And the PWM box is triggered by a third party thermostat producing 12V+ when it wants to turn on?

Summer is quickly approaching here in the desert and this looks like the next logical step away from the all-to-tiny Ford Taurus fan currently covering ~60 percent of the cooling surface of my radiator.

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 02/21/11 04:48 PM

not sure about part of your question.

I tested an early model of the mercedes fan. It is built like the aftermarket fan that requires some sort of controler or it burns out after 20 min of full power.

I ran it for and hour and half continuous, probably another hour off and on. It was definatly pulling a lot of amps, as you can see by the melted alternator wire when both were running.

The controler can be triggered 4 ways. I tested 3.

You can set up some other temp setup like the stand alone adjustibles that push into the radiator fins and supply a ground to the box.

you can have a trinary switch for a/c that supplies ground to another circuit to the box.

you can have a 2 terminal standard chevy temp sensor installed and it will read off that.

or there is a single terminal temp sensor as well, which I did not test.
I did attempt to use the stock 1965 temp sensor, but that did not work.

The controler ONLY suppiles the trigger voltage to turn on the fan. The fan has to be wired to power and ground seperatly.
Both new and old style fans have built in relay's so nothing else has to be done.

Posted By: Pat_Whalen

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 02/21/11 04:58 PM

Quote:

not sure about part of your question.

I tested an early model of the mercedes fan. It is built like the aftermarket fan that requires some sort of controler or it burns out after 20 min of full power.

I ran it for and hour and half continuous, probably another hour off and on. It was definatly pulling a lot of amps, as you can see by the melted alternator wire when both were running.

The controler can be triggered 4 ways. I tested 3.

You can set up some other temp setup like the stand alone adjustibles that push into the radiator fins and supply a ground to the box.

you can have a trinary switch for a/c that supplies ground to another circuit to the box.

you can have a 2 terminal standard chevy temp sensor installed and it will read off that.

or there is a single terminal temp sensor as well, which I did not test.
I did attempt to use the stock 1965 temp sensor, but that did not work.

The controler ONLY suppiles the trigger voltage to turn on the fan. The fan has to be wired to power and ground seperatly.
Both new and old style fans have built in relay's so nothing else has to be done.

Thanks Andy

So the early design and the aftermarket design both require some sort of PWM. Feets original fan was the later design that could take a straight 12V on the trigger wire, correct?

I'd end up using a grounding trigger from my Megasquirt controller for fan control. Just wasn't sure what it was capable of as far as inputs.

The swap should be fairly easy for me as I've got everything currently configured from my Taurus fan already in place.

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 02/21/11 05:05 PM

That is correct. The fan I use and feets uses both can take a straight 12 volts.

The older fans and aftermarket require this controler box or the burn out pdq.

The ground is how I have my efi setup wired as well, and I setup the trinary to ground on the same wire, so it would be a simple swap for me too, as I would remove the relay and replace it with this box.

I chose to wire them up seperatly just to make sure everything worked, and it is a pain to replace my fan with the old style.

After I do some environment tests on the boxes, I may substitue my relay for a while for drivablity tests later on, but at that point it is just endurance tests for the electronics vs if it works or not.

Regardless, no way the fan will take as much abuse as I put it through in one sitting.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 02/22/11 07:55 AM

To clarify...

Quote:

And the PWM box is triggered by a third party thermostat producing 12V+ when it wants to turn on?

The only input that can take +12v is the AC input. That input can either be grounded, or given +12v, to turn the fan on.

The temperature sensor input can only be grounded, or be hooked up to the temp sensor.

My website is now updated and ready to take orders

http://www.ma-uav.com/FanController.html
I have two controllers in stock, with more about a week and a half away. I'll get a thread in the new products section once I get more in stock.

If you don't want/need variable speed, order away. Otherwise wait a week until I know more about the changes needed.

Andy/feets: Does the newer fan also have a trigger wire? Is this an example of that fan? link

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 02/22/11 02:14 PM

wiring is exactly the same, new or old style.

looks correct for the new style. and, though it isn't needed, unless someone wants variable speed, if you get that to work, I verified you controler will turn that type on and off too.

Posted By: feets

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 02/22/11 04:05 PM

The ebag link is for a new style fan like Andy and I run. Look for the metal heat sink. If it's there, it's an old style fan.

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 02/22/11 09:15 PM

I did some water testing on the black box.
in both the horizontal and vertical positions it did allow water into the box.

In the horzontal, IE, the screws are visible looking straight down at the box, there was enough water pooled at the bottom, that I would be concerned. Very short test. Used a veg sprayer in the sink to hit it for about 30 seconds. About like if you hit it with a power washer washing your car.

Mounted vertical, with the long axis being hit by water from above, it was much better, leads me to believe the screw holes are the weak link.
A few drops of water pooled at the bottom.

I will test out the white box in a few days, but if you chose the black one, mount it inside would be my sugguestion.
OR, tape up the edges and screw holes.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 02/23/11 07:14 AM

Thanks for the test results

Another thing to keep in mind, is that a hole still needs to be drilled for the wires to pass through. If mounted on a wall, I recommend the hole to be on the bottom edge, so most water should drain itself.

Although maybe it's just best to stick it inside somewhere

OR, a tiny bead of RTV around the edge and screw holes, since you shouldn't have to open it often once you have it set up. This is likely what I'll end up doing.

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 02/23/11 03:12 PM

I was thinking something less permenent.
Tape should be enough.
the screw holes were the worst leakers. Sides not as much.
but a strip of tape around the sides and over each screw hole would be enough to "seal" it.

Posted By: rapom

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 02/25/11 04:07 PM

I bought a Mercedes fan about 6 months ago for my 67 Coronet and it looks like I'm going to need one of your controllers as it has the metal heat sink. Looking at your website I'm finding that you are going to look at controlling the fan speed. My car won't be on the road until next year so I was thinking about waiting until you figure it out as I would like the ablity to have the fan run more quietly and draw less amps on a cooler day. I really apprieciate you taking the time to make these controllers up.

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 02/27/11 01:23 AM

got the ociliscope hooked up. Hopefully the readings will help get some variable speeds for these fans.

Got busted by the wife, so I might not be able to get other readings. lol.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 02/27/11 04:55 AM

With the info I got from Andrew earlier today, we now have variable speeds

I still need to do a bit more testing, but it appears that I will need to change the hardware a bit, and the controller will need both small wires from the fan going to it. I'll know more after some more testing.

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 02/27/11 03:31 PM

I realized there might be some issues with variable speed.
The mercedes has a few extra sensors to tell it when it is okay to switch to low speed. VSS and tps.
you only have temp.

I sugguest a bit of extra logic for the temp. Start the fan at high speed at the start temp. After a 4 degree drop, switch to med speed, another 2 degree drop go to low and shut off at the 10 degree total drop.
IF at any point temp increases, kick back to high speed. Not sure if you need to change the logic at this point to keep it at high, or if the switch up is enough.

I believe the 2 speeds I sent you plus high should be safe, I don't think you should put in any other inbetween speeds just because that would require more testing of the older fan to be sure it doesn't hurt it at other variable speeds.

I think this will need some drivablilty testing, in that does any of those speeds make it worse and if the up temp logic works.
I would prefer to verify this at warmer temps, but regardless it needs to be checked out.

Finally, if you have the time I would like to check out some stock mopar temp sensors to see if you can use those for temp. Now more than ever you need a temp sensor for this to work.

Posted By: feets

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 02/27/11 06:58 PM

I'm thinking something a bit different. How about running 50% or 60% speed for most cooling needs and fire up to full speed with high temps or on demand (A/C kicking in)?

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 02/27/11 08:06 PM

And I was thinking a third idea

With a temp sensor installed, I can use the feedback from it to maintain the set temperature (ie, 205*). If the temp continues to rise, fan speed would increase to full speed in 5 or 10% increments. Likewise at idle, it may only need 10% to keep 205*, so why have the extra noise and current draw.

Or, I make the minimum speed 30-40%, so at idle it will still be able to lower the temp and kick the fan off for a little bit, while minimizing noise & current draw.

For AC it would still kick to full speed.

In theory if the feedback loop is correct, if you hit the highway, it should cool off from the increased airflow, with the controller responding with a lower fan speed. Continue until the temp drops enough to turn the fan off.

I may have to make a video of the fan at low speed. It's almost silent

As for the hardware changes needed... I basically need to start over

The current board I sent Andrew can't get a clock speed low enough that can generate the speed of duty cycle needed. The basic design stays the same, it will just have a different microcontroller controlling it, which is all transparent to the end user.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 02/27/11 11:28 PM

Now with more video! (Do we all sound weird when we hear our own voices, or is it just me?

)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aGq7f0SSYk

In the video the fan starts at 90%, then I drop it to 70, 50, 30, and 10%, where it finally turns off, then it turn it back on to 15%.

Posted By: feets

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 02/28/11 12:29 AM

That's friggin awesome!!!

I'm glad you were able to knock it out so quickly.

I think your idea is great assuming the user can select the starting point. Some folks like 160 degrees, some like 190 degrees.
You need to keep the lowest speed fast enough to cool the engine below the thermostat. That way the fan will actually shut off.

Don't worry. We all think your voice sounds funny in the video.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 02/28/11 01:17 AM

Correct, they'd still be able to choose the temperature using the knob. Does anyone want a temp of less than 160*?

I should post a picture of the board I used in the video... it's ugly

I still need to design the new board and have it made, yadda yadda... add a couple weeks + more testing.

I can add some more functionality to this test board and at least do some testing in the truck now. I'll also let the fan run at 15% for a while to make sure it doesn't die.

Quote:

Don't worry. We all think your voice sounds funny in the video.

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 02/28/11 01:27 AM

I have a couple of issues or changes.

First off, I think I know the reason for the way the merc fans work, and perhaps you need the same logic.

So when the cars are warm and just start, you have a heat soak condition. Most times the temp will spike up to around 230 ish.
So they must have some sort of over temp limiter to where the fans kick high due to the temp.
I agree with this procedure for a couple of reasons. If you are moving faster than the 40 percent speed of the fan, you are now impeeding air flow.
I think if you add logic to set speed based on how much over set temp you are just in case, because if you hit that temp while running you don't want to step up, you want to be at max cooling right now, then your idea of starting at 10 percent, and moving up if you don't maintain is fine.

Second, a/c really doesn't need max cooling. I don't see the point of hitting max speed for a/c. The only times I have needed the fan for a/c is when I am dead stopped. if I have any movment at all, it is enough to keep it from kicking the fan for a/c in 100 degree weather.
Here I would stick to the 10 percent with cooling taking precendent for speed.
That being said, you should have a timer on it. If it gives the signal for longer than 30 seconds or so for a/c, kick it to max cooling.

I noticed the merc fans do stay running all the time once the engine is warmed up. And I think I prefer that too them kicking on and off all the time. So my vote is for min duty to maintain say a 5 degree dead band, vs the 10 degree shut off when moving.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 02/28/11 07:43 AM

I've seen the heat soak in action with my controller (the controller in the video has a display I can put the measured values on). The heatsoak doesn't show up on the gauge in the dash, but on a warm start the temp will read 215*, then immediately drop to the 190s.

(For the following assume a set temperature of 205*)

So you're saying, if the temp is greater than 220*, don't bother slowly stepping up, just go to full speed? That makes sense. On startup I can also add a 5 or 10 second delay before the fan comes on to give the water some time to circulate. After that on a warm start, it would go back to the standard logic of varying the speed to maintain 205*.

Otherwise, on a cold startup, the fan will be off until 205* is reached, then it can start at 50%, and vary its speed from there.

I was wondering if people would prefer to have the fan always running at 15%, or run at 20-25%, and turn off occasionally. I almost think I would prefer the always running

For AC, when I was looking at the trinary switch stuff, most comments stated they needed full fan to move air over the condenser. But then again, half speed on this fan is full speed for others

I could see going to 50% initially, then going to 90% if the AC signal is still there after 30 seconds. Although that would negate some of the effectiveness of putting a switch on the AC signal as an override.

I need to install the fan in the truck, then initially I'll make it so I can vary the speed with the knob. Then driving down the road I can go from full speed to idle and see how the temp reacts. After that I'd have a lot better idea of what to expect.

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 02/28/11 02:54 PM

that is it pretty much.
at 205 start and then step down to maintain.
at anything over 218 220 kick to full speed, then say at 205 try to maintain again.

not sure what you mean about the a/c switch. I can assure you it does not take that much to maintain that off. I would hope that the coolant need for cooling will prevent it from ever coming on, and I agree, I would rather see it on at 10 percent all the time rather than kick on and off while idling around town or in stop and go traffic.

If it will be a while for you to get it in your truck, send the prototype to me or the variable speed and I will rig it to my car.

Infact, I was wondering if you can reprogram the board you gave me to do just that instead?
ignore the other feeds, just power, ground, both leads to the fan.
Change the temp pot to speed?
I can verify temps seperatly and then see how it affects it by speed of the car.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 02/28/11 08:04 PM

Unfortunately, the boards I sent you can't produce a clock signal slow enough to generate the correct signal to the fan. Its PWM hardware is woefully inadequate compared to the 8051 I'll use in the new design. I just tried to control the fan with the clock speed I can get on those boards, and it just turns the fan on or off.

I should be able to get the fan mounted in the truck this week. In semi-related news, it just started snowing again

Posted By: feets

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 02/28/11 08:59 PM

Snow shouldn't be a problem.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 03/01/11 11:39 PM

Quote:

Snow shouldn't be a problem.

Currently the fan has been running for half an hour at 15% in the office. It's barely louder than the computers we have running, and it still sucks a piece of paper to the front of the radiator

Edit: make that an hour it's been running

Posted By: 68_CONV_300

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 03/02/11 11:21 PM

looks like this is going to work out great ... Thanks to all of you who have donated your time and $$ to this project .. can't wait for the final version so I can put one on my coronet

Posted By: feets

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 03/05/11 10:21 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Snow shouldn't be a problem.

Currently the fan has been running for half an hour at 15% in the office. It's barely louder than the computers we have running, and it still sucks a piece of paper to the front of the radiator

Edit: make that an hour it's been running

Now you need to run it at WFO for an hour and stay in the same room with it.
Keep your fingers, loose papers, and small woodland creatures away from the blade.

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 03/05/11 11:25 PM

also you need to keep your controler set to pulls the trigger wire to 90 percent incase it fails over from the controler wire.
you don't want it to spin up to 100 percent if you lose control wire contact.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 03/05/11 11:43 PM

I'll have to see what happens if I drive the original trigger wire with 90%, and the other wire with the varying duty cycle.

On my current test board, I have a tiny relay that ties the original wire to 12v while the other wire controls the speed. To turn the fan off, I switch both inputs to ground.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 03/06/11 10:51 PM

I've been talking with Andy through PMs about a way to use the stock sender, and have the controller move the needle on the temp gauge in the dash.

What I've found is...

With a solid state (constant) 5v voltage regulator on the back of the cluster, I can move the needle though its range of motion.

With the stock pulsing regulator, I can only get the needle to about 1/3rd on the gauge.

So, if you have a solid state regulator, you can hook the stock sensor into the controller board, which will use that to control the speed of the fan. Then, you hook the wire that used to go to the sensor, into the controller board, and the controller will move the needle to show the temperature.

It may just be easier to drill and tap a third hole in the intake

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 03/07/11 03:42 AM

well now all you have to do is figure out a cheap solid state VR for the instrument cluster.

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 03/07/11 04:16 AM

wow, I see what you mean about drilling a new hole.
I can try to build one for about 10 bucks.
diy regulator

buy an odd looking one for 30 bucks.
better than diy

or spend 50 on a high tech direct replacement.
direct replacement

or just use a drill and tap I have to put in another. OR I guess I could live without a gauge in the car.

Nah, will proably try to build my own.

so how soon for a prototype to try?

and did you see if you can drive both at 90 percent, the trigger and controler wires?

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 03/07/11 08:54 AM

I have not seen if I can drive both wires at 90% and have it still run. I guess I'm not too worried about it. If all of a sudden it's on full speed all the time, there must be a break in the speed wire, or the controller is fried. Either way it warrants a look to see what's going on. The circuit will be able to drive it at 90%, or 100%, so I can figure it out later, as my current prototype can't do it.

ETA for another prototype... hmm...

I guess it depends on how much more we're going to change the design

I know the circuit I need to control the speed of the fan and to read the temp sensor. I also have a circuit that will move the needle on the gauge in the dash. I think we have everything pretty well nailed down, so I could go ahead and order some circuit boards. The alternative is $100 for a development board, and build the entire circuit to make sure it all works.

Oh yea, Andrew, what are your thoughts on the dip switches I used on the boards I sent you? Too hard to switch/too annoying/easy enough?

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 03/07/11 02:56 PM

I agree, I think we have everything locked down now on features.
the kicker was the variable speed. Temp gauge was a nice to have.

Dip switches were okay. A little odd to have 2 and only one doing anything.
but since you really only set it once, it isn't a big deal.

I hope you are not out too much proto typing all this stuff.

you might try selling the other boards to people that don't care about variable speed.?

if is it cheaper than a 100 bucks to just build a set, I would consider that. since we seem to be there. BUT having done the testing thing for a while, I tend to be pessimistic about this sort of thing and believe we have another go around.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 03/07/11 07:45 PM

As my wife succinctly put last night, I can do the dev board for $100, fix any issues, then get circuit boards for another $100 ($200 total). Or, get circuit boards for $100, and either be done, or fix issues and get another set for another $100. So likely only $100, and maybe $200.

I'll start the new layout today and send it off when I can. It'll be another ~2 weeks for a prototype. I also agree that we seem to have all the features nailed down. At this point it's just software to logically control the speed.

The new boards will probably have another dip switch or two on them to indicate GM or stock mopar sensor and whatever else I come up. Will probably include a switch to disable variable speed?

I'll probably make the other boards available at a pretty good discount for those that don't want variable speed.

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 03/07/11 08:01 PM

should not need the extra. fan apparenlty can take care of itself on that.
no control wire hooked up and it goes to full speed. you just need to control pulse to keep it at 90 percent so it doesn't burn out.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 03/17/11 09:39 PM

Alrighty, any other features I need to add? I'm almost done with the new version of the circuit board. I was hoping to be done with it a week ago but some stuff came up.

This version adds variable speed and the hardware to move the needle on the stock temp sensor. It will also bolt into the bigger white box using two standoffs in it (with two more sticky standoffs to support it).

I decided to remove the output to the dash status light. I really don't think I'll use it, nor would anyone else. I can hack one in later if someone really wants one.

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 03/18/11 02:19 PM

so, now you can
control the speed.
use either stock temp sensor or your aftermarket.
run the fan on or off, instead of speed control.
feed the stock gauge with a constant 5v vr for the gauges.
have a check for loss of temp sensor(either one?)
still need to confirm 90 percent driving either on/off or loss of temp sensor.
a/c signal
adjustible on by temp

anything I forgot?

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 03/18/11 06:42 PM

Quote:

so, now you can
control the speed.
use either stock temp sensor or your aftermarket.
run the fan on or off, instead of speed control.
feed the stock gauge with a constant 5v vr for the gauges.
have a check for loss of temp sensor(either one?)
still need to confirm 90 percent driving either on/off or loss of temp sensor.
a/c signal
adjustible on by temp

anything I forgot?

I think you got everything

To clarify for others, "feed the stock gauge with a constant 5v vr for the gauges.", if you have a constant 5v reg in the cluster, I can vary the ground of the gauge to move the needle. The controller board itself does not provide the 5v.

I can detect a loss of either sensor and turn the fan on. I still have the dip switch to allow a relay or switch to turn the fan on.

Surprisingly, the added hardware for variable speed and to move the needle only added about $5 to the total cost.

I may be able to finish the design and send it off today, but with family coming tomorrow, I may need to wait until monday.

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 03/18/11 07:29 PM

cool. my big deal is still the 90 percent driver without the temp signal and if you lose the control line. but I suppose that is an odd occurence.

Posted By: gtx69

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 04/02/11 10:51 PM

Do you have the variable fan controller ready to go?I'll be ready to ride in the next month.

Attached picture 6564637-11-10-20106;39;22PM.JPG

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 04/03/11 07:37 PM

Quote:

Do you have the variable fan controller ready to go?I'll be ready to ride in the next month.

The circuit boards should show up on Tuesday (4/5). Another week or so to get the prototype going and another week or two for testing... I'd SWAG they should be ready in about a month

Posted By: feets

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 04/03/11 09:56 PM

Good news!

Now I can start working to convince you that updating the Auto Temp systems is in your best interest.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 04/10/11 06:13 PM

Quote:

Good news!

Now I can start working to convince you that updating the Auto Temp systems is in your best interest.

Show me the market and all the specs, and I'll put it in line behind the fan controller, 46RE controller, and Andy's seat controller.

Got to the point I could test the fan this morning, and it seems to work just fine

With a 90% signal on the trigger line, and a signal on the speed line, it doesn't work as desired.

With a speed signal, it appears to require a 100% signal on the trigger line. So if the fan suddenly goes to 100%, check the wiring to make sure everything is still connected.

I still need to test moving the needle with the new hardware, but otherwise, variable speed control works

Now I just need to come up with the control loops to vary the speed according to temperature.

Posted By: gtx69

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 04/15/11 02:14 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Do you have the variable fan controller ready to go?I'll be ready to ride in the next month.

The circuit boards should show up on Tuesday (4/5). Another week or so to get the prototype going and another week or two for testing... I'd SWAG they should be ready in about a month

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 04/21/11 01:58 AM

Welll... had another urgent project come up that took a good chunk of my time the last couple weeks. Good news is, if that project takes off, I can retire early and spend more time on fun stuff like this

Anywho, I have the new code more or less tested in Excel to vary the speed according to the current temperature.

Now I just need it to stop raining so I can install the fan, and/or, the seller would stop jerking us around so we can move to our new place that has a garage

Oh yea, the prototype hardware is mostly done, and can control the speed just fine

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/03/11 03:37 AM

I got the fan installed in my truck over the weekend, and just got the rough prototype installed and tested.

Now I wonder if I have an unrelated cooling issue. In 45* weather, even at full speed, the fan isn't really cooling it down much

The engine is a tired 318 with a two year old 3 row radiator. I think my 195* thermostat is actually a 205*, and I have no idea how old the water pump is.

Other than that, it does seem to vary the speed accordingly, and at highway speeds the fan was slowing down automagically.

I guess now I just need to get the real prototype tested a little more, then send one to Andy to test in some warmer weather.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/04/11 08:51 PM

I increased the sampling rate from every 2 seconds to every 6 seconds this morning, and it seems to have made a big help (duh). It's not hitting full speed near as often now

I still wouldn't be surprised if my cooling system isn't up to snuff, as it seems to take a long time for the temps to come back down.

Progress!

Posted By: rapom

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/04/11 09:54 PM

Looking forward to the finally product as I will be needing one for my fan.

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/05/11 02:12 AM

Quote:

I increased the sampling rate from every 2 seconds to every 6 seconds this morning, and it seems to have made a big help (duh). It's not hitting full speed near as often now

I still wouldn't be surprised if my cooling system isn't up to snuff, as it seems to take a long time for the temps to come back down.

Progress!

yeah, have to say you need to go through your cooling system.
if it runs for more than a couple min at 100 degrees out, something is wrong.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/05/11 03:07 AM

Quote:

yeah, have to say you need to go through your cooling system.
if it runs for more than a couple min at 100 degrees out, something is wrong.

guess it's time to spend $50 at rockauto for a new water pump, tstat, and rad cap.

This evening I let it idle for a few minutes... it was maintaining 210*F with ~75% from the fan

BUT, the feedback seems to working quite well

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/05/11 03:22 AM

does it eventually shut off at speed?
I guess that is my only concern is impeeding flow at speed while the fan is at 10 percent.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/05/11 04:37 AM

I need to test turning the fan off at apeed to see if it hurts or helps cooling.

Currently it's set up to go as low as 25% after it's turned on, and doesn't turn off. I haven't seen a case in my truck where it would need to turn off, but apparently my truck isn't the best test subject.

The other thing I think I'll add is a 5 or 10 second delay when you first startup to let any heatsoaking go away before the fan turns on.

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/05/11 12:18 PM

I think we discussed the heat soak thing. Rather have it come on due to temp rather than wait.

Posted By: feets

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/05/11 04:36 PM

Mercedes runs the fan at full speed for a few seconds when the engine starts.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/05/11 04:47 PM

I currently only have the fan turn on once the temperature is within 5 degrees of the target temperature, and then it comes on at 45%. After that, feedback controls the speed to maintain the target temperature.

Think I should do more like mercedes and turn it to full speed on startup for a few seconds, then let it go back to idle speed until it needs the additional cooling?

Posted By: feets

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/05/11 05:03 PM

I don't think it's necessary to start the fan with all engine starts.
If there's enough heat soak to fire the fan I don't think it will hurt anything.

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/17/11 04:01 AM

any updates?

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/17/11 04:51 AM

I've been driving the truck around town, and finally got it out on the highway yesterday. At 55mph, with the fan turned off, my temps continue to increase. Oh, and it was only 45*F out.

Other than that, around town it varies the speed quite nicely to maintain the set temperature. With a new waterpump and thermostat it might even work better.

Tomorrow I hope to have time to move to the actual circuit board to test for a couple days, then I'll send one to Andrew to test (along with a programmer so he can update the software on it if need be).

So, it's moving along, just not as fast as I had hoped.

Posted By: John_Kunkel

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/17/11 09:16 PM

Quote:

At 55mph, with the fan turned off, my temps continue to increase. Oh, and it was only 45*F out.

For those who say the fan isn't needed at highway speeds.

Posted By: feets

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/17/11 10:00 PM

Quote:

Quote:

At 55mph, with the fan turned off, my temps continue to increase. Oh, and it was only 45*F out.

For those who say the fan isn't needed at highway speeds.

Hey smart guy, didja notice he's having other issues?
Even Chrysler was turning off the cooling fans at 35 mph back in 1985. Modern cars do it too.

I had the Mercedes fan mounted on my twin turbo 440 and it cooled fine on the highway without the fan running.
How many people are going to create more heat than that at highway speed?

Posted By: John_Kunkel

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/17/11 11:37 PM

Quote:

Hey smart guy, didja notice he's having other issues?
Even Chrysler was turning off the cooling fans at 35 mph back in 1985. Modern cars do it too.

Oh, we were talking '85 and newer cars?

Posted By: feets

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/17/11 11:57 PM

We're talking about electric fans that are hard to find factory installed on pre-85 cars. Naturally, you have to find cars that have successful application of electric fans and use what you can from the engineering and design that manufacturers paid huge amounts of money to develop.

Electric fans have their benefits. Chief amongst them is the end user being able to do what he wants with them.

If you don't want it, don't use it.

Posted By: John_Kunkel

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/18/11 05:50 PM

Quote:

We're talking about electric fans that are hard to find factory installed on pre-85 cars.

And I was commenting on the absence of a working fan (electric or mechanical) at highway speeds leading to overheating which has been the debated subject of previous threads.

Posted By: feets

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/18/11 07:19 PM

Put down your agenda and go read the post again.

Modern cars turn the fans off at speed. NASCAR doesn't even HAVE a fan. In fact, many race cars don't have fans. They even run long stretches of caution laps at 55 to 70 mph without overheating. Don't forget those guys tape up the grilles to limit cooling air in the quest for top speed aerodynamics.

Your mechanical fan DOES NOT pull as much air through the radiator as you get cruising at 60 mph. Prove me wrong.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/18/11 08:31 PM

well poo

Got the old waterpump out, and from what I know it appears like it should work a lot better than the new one. Same number of vanes (8), and they are wider and closer to the front and back walls of the water pump/timing cover.

No play in the shaft, but the vanes have rubbed on the WP housing a bit

Posted By: feets

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/18/11 08:54 PM

What's life without a little adventure?

Did you stuff your water hose in a block passage and blow out any nasties that may be lurking about? It's a good idea to pull the block drains and make sure the system is clean. Those are easy to reach on a truck.

Posted By: John_Kunkel

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/19/11 12:05 AM

Quote:

Your mechanical fan DOES NOT pull as much air through the radiator as you get cruising at 60 mph. Prove me wrong.

Anecdotal experience is the only "proof" I have. Not all cars have the frontal shoebox shape to ram air through the radiator at speed.

Posted By: feets

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/19/11 12:25 AM

That's why the pointy nose cars have spoilers under the radiator support. It blocks air flow from the outside and creates a low pressure area behind the radiator that helps draw air.

Posted By: John_Kunkel

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/19/11 08:32 PM

So, your contention is that ALL cars will have ram cooling at speed and don't need a fan?

Posted By: feets

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/20/11 04:08 AM

All is a really broad term but I honestly feel that the vast majority of production vehicles fall into that category.

Posted By: John_Kunkel

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/20/11 09:11 PM

I honestly feel that "the vast majority" is a really broad term.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/21/11 12:22 AM

Ok, wth, lol

Got the new pump in. Idling in the driveway, fan is at full speed, and the temps are going up

Bring the RPMs up, and the temps edge down a couple degrees and hang there, and it definitely won't go back below the thermostat.

Anywho, yesterday I got the new circuit board ready to test, so I'll put that in today and run it for a couple days to make sure it doesn't fry itself, then I'll send one to Andy to test in a car that actually works

I may throw the old pump back in and just limp it along until I get the mag 408 built

Posted By: feets

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/21/11 03:27 AM

If you're still overheating then you have a problem.

Have you checked for a temperature drop across the radiator?
A clogged radiator will be much cooler in the center than the inlet and outlet.
You should see about 30 degrees difference between the upper and lower hoses with a progressive change across the core.
You aren't getting much circulation. Did you test the thermostat to verify it was opening?

One of those fans cooled Andy's 5.9 Magnum while laying on top of the engine. You're not having an air flow issue.

Oh, just to close out the thing with Johnny-boy I present this:

Quote:

Engine Fan Test
The radiator cooling fan is an important part of the cooling system operation. While a fan is not really needed while a vehicle is traveling down the highway, it is extremely important when driving slowly or stopped with the engine running.
When the car was in motion, the speed of the air entering the grill was sufficient to keep the coolant at the proper temperature, so the fans were shut off. When the vehicle came to a stop, there was no natural air flow, so the fan would come on as soon as the engine reached a certain temperature.

Taken from: http://www.familycar.com/classroom/coolingsystem.htm

Quote:

The fan is usually not needed when the vehicle is traveling fast enough for ram airflow through the grill to provide cooling (typically at speeds above 30 mph).

Taken from: http://www.aa1car.com/library/electric_cooling_fan.htm

Quote:

When moving at highway speeds, the cooling fan is not required to maintain the water-cooled engine at a safe operating temperature.

Taken from: http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-water-cooled-engine.htm

Quote:

At highway speeds, the air flow through the radiator is sufficient to provide proper cooling without the aid of the fan.

Taken from: http://www.flowkoolerwaterpumps.com/info/cooling_system_overview.html

With that, I'm done with the highway speed debate.

For some people the world is, and always will be, flat.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/21/11 03:32 AM

If you don't mind, lets move my cooling issues to the other thread, here:
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...e=0#Post6639737

But yes, the top hose is very hot, and the bottom hose I can hang onto just fine, so the rad is dropping temperature.

New thermostat, but I should probably throw the old one on the stove to see if it was opening or not.

Posted By: John_Kunkel

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/21/11 07:13 PM

Quote:

With that, I'm done with the highway speed debate.

Well, thanks for all the links...after all, we all know if it's writen on the internet it has to be true.

My original comment was in reference to the myth contained in those links.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/22/11 04:53 AM

Finally, an update worth noting.

With a new thermostat that actually opens, I've been getting much better results. I haven't seen anything over 40% from the fan driving through town now. With the hood open and the fan at that speed, it's barely audible

At idle it hasn't needed much more than 25% from the fan.

And it looks like I'll have to add logic to turn the fan off completely if the temps drop too far below the target temperature. At highway speeds, even with the fan at 25%, I'm not seeing the temp go up drastically at all from interference from the fan.

Posted By: feets

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/22/11 05:08 AM

Good news indeed! You got the truck fixed AND the fan is working for you.

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/23/11 01:10 PM

hate to harp on this, but just making sure you put a limiter on it even when it adjust by temp, so it doesn't go past the 90 percent mark on power.

Posted By: gtx69

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/23/11 09:27 PM

So is the controller ready for me to put on my car?

Attached picture 6647230-11-15-201012;58;41PM.JPG

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/24/11 12:27 AM

if you only care about on and off, yep.
if you want the variable speed, nope.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/24/11 04:58 AM

Yep, the output is limited to between 25% and 90%. I've put a dozen or so trips on it in the last couple weeks and it's still working great.

Andy: I'm debating sending you an (ugly) box that has a display to show you exactly what it's doing at any given point (it shows the target temp, actual temp, and the fan output percentage). You'd have to extend the temp sensor wires and the fan control wires to the cabin to where you can watch the screen. Otherwise we'll be guessing as to what it's actually doing.

I can also send a programmer so you can update the code if we need to make any changes. Sound like a plan? I can probably send it off to you later this week.

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/24/11 12:18 PM

that is fine. Was going to use my laptop to watch temps in the car, but either way works to get a test going.

Posted By: feets

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/24/11 03:27 PM

Quote:

So is the controller ready for me to put on my car?

You have to remember that Andy has tested products for a living and tends to get nerdy when it comes to some things.

However, when it's done it should be done right.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/26/11 11:04 PM

Drove around the last couple days with the actual circuit board installed. It hasn't burned itself up yet

I'll build another couple of them and send one to andy for testing in warm weather (it snowed here yesterday

)

Andy: do you have a digital temp gauge you can monitor? Also, you need to use the stock mopar temp sensor, right?

Posted By: Performance Only

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/26/11 11:33 PM

Quote:

Drove around the last couple days with the actual circuit board installed. It hasn't burned itself up yet

I'll build another couple of them and send one to andy for testing in warm weather (it snowed here yesterday )

Andy: do you have a digital temp gauge you can monitor? Also, you need to use the stock mopar temp sensor, right?

if it's warm weather testing you need, we've got plenty of that. it's in the 90's every day here and it's gonna get worse before it gets better.

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/27/11 04:01 AM

yeah, like I said, I will plug in the lap top and use it to monitor the efi temp sensor.
I will rewire my stock sensor to use with your board, and then build my self the solid state VR for the intrument cluster so you can drive that gauge.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/28/11 03:33 AM

Did some testing today with the stock temp gauge. Seems to work pretty well.

Andy, I have a couple extra VRs if you want one to gut and your put your own regulator in.

I can also send you this box so you can monitor the actual % the fan is running at.

Attached picture 6654446-IMAG0122[800x600].jpg

Attached picture 6654446-IMAG0122[800x600].jpg

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/28/11 01:11 PM

box might be interesting.
just need 12 volt and a ground? just wondering if it would be easier with my laptop or the box.

I have a couple vr's in my tool box, so don't need that. thanks.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/28/11 06:27 PM

The box has the fan controller in it, in addition to the display and 5v supply for the gauge. So, all of the lines (fan control, temp sensor, AC) would need to be run there. Inside the box, the power and ground need to be doubled up to power the other stuff.

With the box when you're going down the highway you can see exactly what the fan is doing, which may be useful at this point.

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/28/11 07:00 PM

I agree, from a testing stand point, that would be helpful.
if it is okay, I may make mods to the wiring for testing purposes,
like wire it to control my temp sensor instead of the one in the box.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 05/29/11 07:53 AM

yea, that would be fine. I may be able to use a smaller box if I don't have to fit the extra 5v power supply. Can use an even smaller box if I stick the controller's screw terminal just outside the box

I'll put another one or two together, and send the box to you early this coming week.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 06/07/11 05:37 PM

UPS says the box is out for delivery

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 06/07/11 08:02 PM

just got it.
probably won't get to it till this weekend. but just letting you know.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 06/07/11 09:52 PM

That's fine. I have another board in the truck right now, and I've noticed I have a bug to squash, so I'll have to send you an updated file to program it with

Posted By: gtx69

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 06/08/11 01:02 AM

Will the controller work for both fans ? Oem and the aftermarket ones.

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 06/08/11 01:56 AM

I am using an oem and have tested with the earlier oem that the aftermarket are based on, but I don't think any of us have gotten an aftermarket.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 06/08/11 03:04 AM

Quote:

Will the controller work for both fans ? Oem and the aftermarket ones.

In theory if the fan plugs into a mercedes and works, it should work with my controller. I'm duplicating the signals, so should 'just work'.

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 06/12/11 11:57 PM

well good news bad news.

I got the controler wired up and reading on my regular temp sensor.
bad news is, it doesn't read right at the point where it needs to turn on.

reads fine right up till 200 degrees and then suddenly pegs..

Will work with dave to see what is up, or switch to an alternate temp sensor if I can't get a stock one to work.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 06/13/11 05:48 PM

Yep, unfortunately, we may not be able to use the stock sensor as it has very small resistance change between 190* and 220* (only about 10 ohms). In contrast, the GM sensor has 240 ohms difference in that range.

This means if the stock sensor is off by even a little bit, it throws the temperature way off. I got three sensors from the junkyard to test. The two that were closest, were 10 ohms apart from each other. The third was 100 ohms off.

Right now we're looking at using an Autometer sensor that will thread in place of the stock sensor. The controller can still drive the stock gauge in the dash, so I think it will end up working just fine

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 06/17/11 01:20 AM

ok, I got the temp box up and running. it controls the fan, but I dual wired my on off just incase.
Apparently it can control the fan with just the speed wire, which is weird.

Was like 101 today, and I went cruising around in the vert to try this out.

I think a bit more fine tuning of the program is in order, but it seems to take care of most of my concerns.

at 35 mph my car does not need the fan. maintains 200 degrees with no issues.

At idle, the controler kept the fan speed about 25 percent, as high as 50 percent depending on what kind of run I just had.

I decided to see if the fan impeded flow, but did not get to do any high way runs.
but took the car from 0 to 50 mph pretty quickly, while the fan was trying to hold about 37 percent.

About a mile down the road, the fan showed it had shut off due to low temp, so that is pretty good.

After an extended 50 mph run in city, I basically backed into my garage, and it caused the fan to spin up to start with at about 65 percent, all the way to 85 percent.
Temps got up to about 220, but never higher.
It might have hit 90, but I don't think so. due to the sample rate, I think it kept low enough not to spin up higher.

all in all, it works, as a basic fan controler, next I will have to play with a/c signals and extended freeway driving in our wonderfull summer weather in spring.

Posted By: gtx69

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 06/29/11 09:08 PM

Are both types of controllers ready to sell?

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 06/30/11 12:32 AM

still fine tuning some of the logic I think.
I am driving my car with the variable speed setup.

not sure if it is my sensor, how I have it bolted in, or what, but still checking it out.
in the middle of moving right now, and have not had as much time to try it out as I would like.
been running errands with the car when I can to see how it handles 100 degree weather.

so far it has erred on the side of caution, and no
"real" temps over my regular efi settings. but the gauge he sent is a bit off compared to my computer, and I am trying to figure out why.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 06/30/11 03:07 AM

I was finally able to put some miles on it today. Did about 90 miles, mostly highway, with about 10 on a gravel road.

I'm pretty sure I still have some sort of cooling issue, but it kept the temperature within +/- 4* of the target temperature.

I have a 180* thermostat installed, and a target temperature of 203*. Outside temperature was in the mid 60s.

On the highway, it would creep up to 203, then fan would turn on, and by 206ish the fan was at full speed. It would pretty quickly drop to 203, and the fan would be back to idle by 201*. Wait a few more miles for the temp to creep up and it would cycle again.

On the gravel road the fan was at idle most of the time, staying right under 203*.

I'm going to tweak the algorithm again tonight, as I need to drive the same loop again tomorrow.

I think I'm really close to having an algorithm that should work well on most all cars. The problem I'm discovering is that my truck has an incredibly slow feedback time between when the fan speeds up and the temperatures respond. Andy's car is apparently the opposite; the fan comes on and the temps drop. I think I've found a way to adapt to either case automagically

Posted By: John_Kunkel

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 06/30/11 07:55 PM

Quote:

I'm pretty sure I still have some sort of cooling issue,

Either that or the fan is needed in situations where conventional belief says it isn't.

What happens if you run the fan at 100% all the time?

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 07/01/11 06:18 AM

Quote:

Either that or the fan is needed in situations where conventional belief says it isn't.

What happens if you run the fan at 100% all the time?

I'll try that tomorrow to see how low it can keep the temperature. A few days ago it took a couple minutes to take it from 196 to 193. I also need to warm it up without the radiator cap to see what kind of flow I'm getting at those temperatures.

Otherwise, I tweaked the algorithm a bit and went on the 90 mile loop again today. Seemed to work a little bit better. Kept the temperature within 3-4* of the target

Posted By: gtx69

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 07/02/11 05:27 PM

Any price yet for the varible controller yet?

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 07/29/11 01:47 AM

Sorry for the delays in more information. Both Andy and I are in the middle of moving, which makes everything more difficult. Even if it was completely ready, I don't have my stuff unpacked and ready to mass produce them.

I think I've tweaked the algorithm to where it works pretty well on my truck.

Last I heard Andy was having trouble with the temperature sensor not reading correctly.

Today I let the fan run at 90% and it took 3 minutes to go from 202* to 190*, where it hung and stopped cooling any farther. This is with a 180* stat, in the mid 80s for an outside temp. My temp sensor and my dash gauge both showed 190*. I plan to take the thermostat out at some point and go for a drive to see what it does.

On a recent long trip, it would gradually warm up to 210*, then the fan would kick on and keep it there. Driving on the highway it wouldn't cool itself enough to turn the fan off. However, driving between 35 and 45mph down a back road it actually would cool itself off, and get cool enough to turn the fan off.

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 07/29/11 02:15 PM

that last part has me concerned with your setup.
at highway speeds at most it creeps on at 25 percent, but eventually shuts off.
either your cooling system isn't up to this at all, or the fan is impeding flow.
I have not tried it at 90 percent on purpose at highway speeds. but guess I have one more thing to try.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 07/29/11 05:56 PM

I'm 99% sure it's my cooling system having issues. I can start with the fan off, go to 55mph, and eventually the temps will creep high enough to trigger the fan. By a few degrees above the target temp the fan is at full speed, which lasts for a mile or so until the temperatures are below the target temp, and the fan goes back to idle.

So the fan at full speed is able to keep the temperatures under control while I'm doing 55mph.

If the temps continued to go up with the fan at full speed and doing 55mph, then I'd be worried about the fan impacting airflow, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Posted By: feets

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 07/29/11 10:20 PM

It sounds like you still have a heating problem with your truck. The fan and new radiator are trying to cover it up but there's no reason for it to be making that much heat.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 07/29/11 10:26 PM

Quote:

It sounds like you still have a heating problem with your truck. The fan and new radiator are trying to cover it up but there's no reason for it to be making that much heat.

I think you're right

It's a very tired 318 that burns oil like it's going out of style. Any guesses whether the new 408 will make any more or less heat?

Posted By: Von

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 08/22/11 08:55 PM

Any update on the controller?

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 08/23/11 02:30 AM

have not heard from him in a while.
been moving,so not as much time to test as I had hoped.

I have had a couple of runs in it. and it acts a bit off to me coming down from freeway speeds.

or I might be expecting too much since it is 100 plus out.

coming from a cold engine crusing in town seems to be fine. maintains around 25 to 50 percent on the fan.
can't really hear it at all.

coming down from an extended 70 mph run, or heat soaking the engine for a bit, and it has a hard time staying below 80 percent, with odd spikes in temp keeping it at 90.

Now a lot of that is the temp sensor.
it is acting weird.
And I haven't had time to trouble shoot it.
could be bad ground, bad sensor, or bad placment.
it is the stock gauge sensor location, but I don't like where it is.
tucked behind the alt.

anyway, my computer is hooked up as an a/c signal, so I can tell when it hits over 205 via my efi system. it will tell his computer the a/c is running and force start the fan to 90 percent.

so far I have not seen the a/c signal come on, except in the heat soak condition, and it doesn't stay on for more than 5 min or so.
but the temp sensor his system is reading, chugs away saying it is still 220 or more. so he is fighting to bring that down. but the a/c signal is off, so I know I am really at 195 ish.

again, more is better in that case, and perhaps it is not actually an issue leaving the fan running at 90 percent longer than is needed.

I hope to get a chance to mess with the sensor this weekend. but don't hold your breath.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 08/23/11 03:05 AM

update is... not much to update

I just recently moved, and am attempting to beat the new place into submission. 8.5 acres that hadn't been maintained in 5+ years

I need to put the other temp sensor in tonight and see if I can duplicate Andy's issues, or at least see what's going on. But then I won't have a known good temp sensor to compare to

I'll make something work.

I'm fairly happy with how the algorithm is working. Once I get the temp sensor issue figured out, I'll send out a couple for pre-testing, then I'll open it up to everyone. After I get my electronics desk built and everything out of boxes.

Posted By: gtx69

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 10/05/11 07:06 PM

Any update yet?

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 10/05/11 07:16 PM

Less to update than I had hoped... I got the Autometer sensor installed. It reads a bit low, but that shouldn't matter since everyone will adjust the knob to match their specific set up.

I'm still trying to come up with a better algorithm that doesn't have it going to full speed if it's 2* over (seems ridiculous).

Mostly waiting for another client to pay me so I have some money to purchase components and put some together.

Posted By: feets

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 10/06/11 10:40 PM

Do you still have the basic on/off controller available?

I know the variable speed controller has been delayed due to everything going on with you and with Andy.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 10/14/11 08:28 PM

Finally some good news! I found another feedback algorithm that seems to work a whole lot better. I'm about to go out on a drive and see how it does.

I also added a staged output function to the current hardware. Basically, at the target temp, the fan goes to 50%. A few degrees over it goes to 75%, and at several above that, it goes to 90%. A few degrees below the target temp it stays at 25%, and if it gets too low it turns off again.

If the feedback hunts too much for their satisfaction, they can change one of the switches to enable the staged output.

So, I don't think there's anything in the way now of starting to build more and offering them for sale

This next week I'll get everything lined up so I can start cranking them out

Posted By: feets

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 10/14/11 08:30 PM

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 10/14/11 08:37 PM

mind sending me the new one to try out too?
not sure it will be very helpful as the temp has dropped to normal levels.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 10/15/11 02:50 AM

Quote:

mind sending me the new one to try out too?
not sure it will be very helpful as the temp has dropped to normal levels.

I would, but with the new code, it won't fit the hardware you have.

I could send you a version with the staged output if you want.

To be able to test it around town I had to add some cardboard blocking about 30% of the radiator. However, at highway speeds, I had to remove it since it wasn't cooling enough for the massive amount of heat my engine puts out. It's 50* outside

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 10/15/11 03:28 AM

lol, another hardware change.
I really hope you get your money back and make a few bucks after all this.

Yeah, I would be happy to test the staged output. It should stay in the 80's another few weeks. Enough to get some good running in.

you are going to have to figure out what is wrong with that truck.
At 50 degrees out, I bet I can hold my radiator after a freeway run.
not that I drive my car much at 50 degrees out. lol.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 10/15/11 07:56 AM

Well, all the hardware change is is a different microcontroller. Otherwise nothing else changed. Sure hope I make a few bucks as well

Was talking to another friend tonight, and before I take it on a 100 mile trip tomorrow I'll check the timing and make sure it hasn't gone full stupid. 15* initial, ~34ish total, + vacuum advance.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 10/29/11 06:12 AM

Alrighty. A year later (

), I think it's ready to go

I put together 7 tonight, but two are already spoken for. I need to test them still, but they should be ready to ship out middle of next week (depending on which box you want, I don't have many big ones).

http://www.ma-uav.com/FanController.html

Posted By: rapom

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 10/29/11 01:10 PM

Just ordered one. But I won't be able to run mine until the car is done, hopefully next year.

Posted By: gtx69

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 10/29/11 05:04 PM

Got mine wednesday should be running in next couple of days.

Posted By: Andrewh

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 10/29/11 08:16 PM

you should probably open a new thread so they can put it in the new products section.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 11/29/11 01:18 AM

Just sent (hopefully the last) test code to Andy. This one uses feedback to move the needle on the stock temperature gauge.

Assuming it goes well, I'll have the first batch finished up and ready to ship soon.

Gtx69, did you get your fan running yet?

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: Mercedes fan upgrade - 12/06/11 09:07 PM

Finally got the sale post up in the new products section

https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=6953270