"Quality is remembered long after price is forgotten!" - Muscle Motors 2010 catalog (p.3)

So let me preface this by saying I've been lurking here for awhile, but this is my first post. I hope this doesn't marginalize what I have to say.

I noticed a negative Muscle Motors rant recently, and was tempted to jump in. I tried to resolve my recent issues with them repeatedly over the phone, but to no avail. I'm going to the Monster Mopar weekend at Gateway this weekend, and I don't want my experience to be tainted by this resentment I'm carrying around. In that spirit, I'm trying one final time to find recompense prior to attending an event I know they'll be at.

Last fall I killed a piston in my 528. I wasn't that upset about it because I wanted to move up to a 572 anyway. I talked with my regular engine builder, and he didn't think he could fit my project into his winter schedule. In lieu, he recommended Muscle Motors due to the positive feedback he'd heard on here. He gave me their catalog, and I read through it, impressed.

I called Mike up and explained my project: a 572 Six-Pak that runs on pump gas. He promised me a 30-day turnaround and a PROMISED MINIMUM of 800HP. Sounds good, right? So I took my whole combination up to Michigan, and headed home.

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30 days, 2 months, 3 months, 5 months passed. Finally, March came and I got the call. My motor's done!

Part list:
new World block
new Callies crank
new Diamond pistons (with a 30 cc dish)
new oil pan, pickup and pump
new cam
new pushrods (one piece)
new valve springs
new rocker adjusters
same heads, replaced the 2.19 valves w new 2.25 valves, same T&D rockers
same lifters
same intake (kind of...see below)
same carbs (but modified...see below)
same Jesel belt drive
same crank pickup
same distributor/cap/rotor (strangely modified...see below)

I got a single dyno sheet with a claimed 820HP and my motor, with a supposed three runs on it. I asked for a build sheet, and was told that I would receive one in the future. According to their catalog, "All sizes are recorded on a build sheet that is available at the time of purchase." (p.8) To date, I have still not received one.

I noticed for the dyno runs that they replaced the Six-Pak with a single 4bbl. Their reasoning was that it made more HP with the 4bbl. I asked for my Six-Pak setup back, since that was what I wanted to run. Eventually they did. So I took it home, and gave it to my engine builder here to dyno it, break it in since it only had three runs on it, and to back up the numbers.

He put it on his dyno (with my 6Pak), and it maked NO horsepower. He couldn't get more than 680hp out of it. After four passes, he decided something was wrong, so he took it off and tore it down. What he found was flat out terrifying.

1. He checked the static compression. Keep in mind, this was supposed to be a pump gas motor. When checked, the compression was 11.87:1. The breakaway rotational torque, without plugs, was measured at 90 ft-lbs.

2. When he drained the oil, it was so glittered, he thought he was back in the 70's. Come to find out, the main bearings were eating themselves up. One crank journal was already SEVERELY scored. The oil pan magnet was fully loaded with particulate. There was an abundance of silicone in the pickup as well. I have attached a pic of the filter media, clogged with glitter.

3. The balance job on the crank was very poorly executed. The counterweights were obliterated with huge holes that had been plunged to within an inch of their lives, some over 2" plunge depth. One of the weights had been filled back in with a welded freeze plug to cap it. All of this despite their assertion in their catalog that "...if you are paying to get your kit balanced, you should get it balance (sic) correctly." (p.16) The obvious correct balance method would have included a reduction in the counterweight diameter as opposed to a half dozen 1” diameter holes, plunged nearly all the way through the counterweight. The bearing clearances as measured ranged from .0009 to a maximum of .0015, way too tight to ever be assembled at a competent machine shop. They utilized .001 undersized main bearing to accomplish this.

4. The Jesel belt drive had been installed at A+0, but had “A-5=108 degrees” inked on it. The adjustment bolts on the cam timing hub were coated in so much Loctite that one of the bolt holes STRIPPED when it was loosened. I'm told that these are NEVER supposed to be Loctited.

5. The cam itself had massive lift and duration, probably partially owing to the high compression. I also did not receive my old roller cam, nor a credit for it.

6. For some reason, they drilled out the bleeder holes in my 2bbl carbs and plugged them with BB's. It is my understanding that this is an old trick to improve acceleration, but the fact is they now run horribly. I'm particularly disappointed about this because I have spent thousands of dollars and years getting them tuned. They're essentially ruined. I was not consulted on this decision, nor was I informed. I found out when I took it home.

7. The heads were apparently cut .075", and the intake was re-cut to fit. This also hurt my pump gas aspirations and made it difficult to return the engine to a reasonable static compression.

8. My old oil pump was replaced with a different one, complete with a 2 piece Milodon pump cover with standard gasket. I had a modified high-volume pump on there, and it was replaced with a standard volume one that was unrelieved. This is odd to me after reading in their catalog about how they "always use(d) high volume oil pumps in any performance engine build." (p.15), and that they DO NOT use the Milodon cover due to the many gasket failures. This seems wholly illogical to me because the World block is plumbed for a -12AN line to start with, deleting the need for an aftermarket pump cover of any kind.

9. My old three-piece pushrods were replaced with one-piece pushrods. I did not receive my old ones back, or a credit for them.

10. I did not receive my old valve springs back, nor a credit for them.

11. The distributor came back with the drive shaft tab that engages the pump drive ground down and a collar on it that seemed to do nothing. I could get no explanation on this, but we replaced the distributor shaft to fully engage the pump drive.

12. The new valve springs had .075" of shim under every single one, yet they installed lash caps, which I absolutely did not want due to the many street miles I drive. When the lash caps were removed, the rockers hit the retainers. They reused my old valve locks, which were worn hard from the 4 years of previous street use with high spring pressures. All of this was a simple fix- we installed -.050 valve locks, throw away the lash caps and shims, and all was good once again.

13. The new pistons were scored by burrs at the bottom of the bores because the bores had not been deburred, and they showed scuff marks on the skirts from nickel to quarter size, indicating that the bores were too tight and would have NEVER lived on the street. We rechecked the bore sizes, the clearances ranged from .0053 to .0065, none were round or straight.

14. The lifter bores were bushed, but were not drilled for oil holes to accommodate street driving.

15. Two connecting rods had their caps switched. They both measured .0015+ out of round, with the larger one measuring .002+ out of round as ran.

16. Muscle Motors installed 2.25 intake valves to increase the flow in my max ported Indy SR’s over the previous 2.19’s. We retested these on a SF-600 flowbench, the old versions flowed 356, the new 350, another failure.

17. After 4 runs at my engine builder's, and a supposed 3 runs at Muscle Motors, the cylinders leaked between 3% and 19%.

After being re-engineered/redone/what-have-you, including a smaller camshaft, it dynoed at 722hp in pump gas mode with the 6 pack setup.

Having spent well north of 20K with Muscle Motors on this project, I called to discuss this. I simply asked for reimbursement for the money I spent to repair it. I got the runaround for three weeks, and then got a verbal agreement for full reparations. They cut me a check for half of what I asked for, claiming that they would make it “completely right” soon after. When I tried to finalize our verbal agreement in the following weeks, I continued to get the runaround. I called over thirty times during a six week period, and finally was told that Muscle Motors felt we were even. I would get no more recompense, nor would I receive my old parts. Also missing in the exchange, besides the remainder of my hard parts, were several braided hoses, brackets and misc accessories from the 528.

As another aside, I decided to redo the engine again, and we recently installed Indy 440-1 heads, ported by Jeff at Modern Cylinder Head, and dynoed the motor at 798hp, pump gas, with the 6 pack. Knowing that the 6 pack wasn’t really enough air for this combo, we switched tops on the Indy NSS manifold and checked out twin four barrel carbs, resulting in 840hp with no tuning.

I have more pics from the reverse engineering process documenting the poor machining, installation and overall poor condition of the motor after a purported seven dyno runs.

All I can say is.............."someone`s got some splaining to do"........

Thats just wrong. I know they lurk on this site, perhaps they have a side to the story. BUT, I hate it when I don't get my parts back, even replaced parts. I want to see what was happening.

It don't sound too good for them fellas.

I am sorry to hear about all of your problems!

I hope that MM gets on here and explains them selves,
because this sounds like complete horse sh!t!!!

whats the story Mike

Ooooohhhh... posts like this always leave me with an uncomfortable feeling.

Definitely know the feeling. Been waiting on my engine for over 2 years from another engine builder. Not fun sitting out a season of racing or multiple seasons waiting.

I had a car for sale earlier this year and a guy calls me to discuss it........Nice guy.......We're shooting the breeze and he asks me if I've ever used Muscle Motors and I say "Yes, in the past, to buy pistons, rods, and stroker kits".........he then goes into this horror story of how he had a motor built there, how long it took and all of the issues he'd had, how he'd sent them a Fogger kit for them to plumb, then when he got the bill they'd charged him for the kit, and on and on.........It freaked me out because I'd never heard anything bad about them before.......I figured there was another side to the story and didn't think too much about it, but now, it seems there may be a pattern developing.......

welcome to my world. Did he tell you how all these things just came to lite to him because he had some one else doing his engines. I could go on for pages with all the problems I had on this predator head motor. I've just cut my loses. Tony (boatracer572) knew way more about the engine than mike, so I talked to him now to ask any questions.

Sorry for this gentleman`s issues and I hate to see these post`s also...............I`m the only one who builds my stuff,not cos I`m the best just cos I enjoy it and I(somewhat)trust myself. Hope it gets resolved............

We screwed up! No tap dance, no weak excuses.

The delay initally was block avaiblity, out of my control. The FIRST block we asssembled, and attemped to dyno has casting problems and would not circulate water. In the appearent rush (since we were dreadful late in delivery) the clearances in the second block machined, were assumed, screwed up, I don't know? Of course World/Mopar Performance never did anything about the useless block or the machining. We ate that, that's just life.

I don't know exactly what went wrong. Scott who does assembly is VERY thurogh and it is not like him but obviously we messed up.

There is no magic in Indy SR heads, no matter who, no matter how they will flow 350 CFM + or - depeding on who's bench. Marks heads had two really good ports but the shortside radius' were not all the same. Before I had Jeff @ modern run his program thru the heads six shortside radius' were as much as a .120 taller than the "good ports" . Short story long, the ports WERE NOT consistant. The equalized ports and bigger valves will help a bigger engine, this is why this work was preformed.

Initally we had sent the carbs out and had them done and appearnly what they did was incorrect. The engine did not run well with the 6 pak carbs we are responsible for so we tried a 1x4 and it ran makedly better. I told Mark Bastemeryer (the customer I dealt with)that I had the carbs modified, what we had done appearnlty didn't work so have your carb guy go thru them and send me a bill. He had his guy redo the carbs and I paid him the $700ish he asked for. He was then going to have the engine redynoed locally. I figured I would owe him for some dyno time and life would go forward.

Next thing I know i get a bill for $5000. A lot of you out there I know are in business. Let me ask you a question: if you do something, and something goes wrong, you are responsible correect? But isn't the customers responsiblitly to bring it back to you to fix it? Example: You don't buy a product from Home Depot, have problems, take it to Lowes to get it fixed and send home Depot the bill?? You take (or at least inform the original provider) there is a problem and let them decide what to do about it, correct?

I sent $3000 dollars in a effort to make it right but when you do not tell me you have major problems and then go somewhere else I dont feel it is my obligation to pay someone else to do what we were responsible for. If it was as messed up as Mark says then I would have had a shpping company pick it up correct it and then sent it back no charge.

Should it have been right to begin with, Yes! Did we screw up, it apears we did. But I will also say the sign of a good shop is one who takes care of a problem when there is one. I can't fix it if I dont know about it. And then send me a bill is not letting me know about it.

Mike @MM

thanks for your side of the story.

You make it sound like all of this was fixed and there are no problems.

But he says you did not come through and fix all the problems.

I dont blame him for having someone else fix the mistakes.

You are not a fly by night company. you come highly respected.

If i got shafted like this from you or any other major big time shop,

there is no way you would get another chance of giving me more of the shaft.

Noone is perfect, but it shouldnt come to this.

I hope both parties are able to work this out.

That`s stand up stuff right there and was waiting for you to post. We ALL make mistakes and the bigger man/shop makes it right and I agree about taking it back to those that assembled/dynoed it in the first place but, that`s a whole nother story.

also ,what happens' to the old parts, ie, cam,pushrods, springs etc. the parts have some value to someone.
thanks
Russ

I read these stories, and am thankful as ever to have dealt with Mike, Gary and Todd Tesar. They were slow, but they are consumate proffesionals. No stone remained unturned. The engine remains perfect, 15 years later (3 freshenups) I say it's poor communication (both with customers and employees), scheduling and management. They know how to do it, just on a hit or miss success. Not a personal slam, just a business tip off: Get in tune with your customer base, or watch it dry up.

820 hp then moved to a different dyno and it's under 700? a single dyno sheet after 3 runs and no build sheet?
if they had done a build sheet would there have been a "screw up"?


Joe