Posted By: 1BadMeepMeep
"Quality is remembered long after price is forgotten!" - 09/08/10 08:28 PM
"Quality is remembered long after price is forgotten!" - Muscle Motors 2010 catalog (p.3)
So let me preface this by saying I've been lurking here for awhile, but this is my first post. I hope this doesn't marginalize what I have to say.
I noticed a negative Muscle Motors rant recently, and was tempted to jump in. I tried to resolve my recent issues with them repeatedly over the phone, but to no avail. I'm going to the Monster Mopar weekend at Gateway this weekend, and I don't want my experience to be tainted by this resentment I'm carrying around. In that spirit, I'm trying one final time to find recompense prior to attending an event I know they'll be at.
Last fall I killed a piston in my 528. I wasn't that upset about it because I wanted to move up to a 572 anyway. I talked with my regular engine builder, and he didn't think he could fit my project into his winter schedule. In lieu, he recommended Muscle Motors due to the positive feedback he'd heard on here. He gave me their catalog, and I read through it, impressed.
I called Mike up and explained my project: a 572 Six-Pak that runs on pump gas. He promised me a 30-day turnaround and a PROMISED MINIMUM of 800HP. Sounds good, right? So I took my whole combination up to Michigan, and headed home.
...
....
.....
....
...
30 days, 2 months, 3 months, 5 months passed. Finally, March came and I got the call. My motor's done!
Part list:
new World block
new Callies crank
new Diamond pistons (with a 30 cc dish)
new oil pan, pickup and pump
new cam
new pushrods (one piece)
new valve springs
new rocker adjusters
same heads, replaced the 2.19 valves w new 2.25 valves, same T&D rockers
same lifters
same intake (kind of...see below)
same carbs (but modified...see below)
same Jesel belt drive
same crank pickup
same distributor/cap/rotor (strangely modified...see below)
I got a single dyno sheet with a claimed 820HP and my motor, with a supposed three runs on it. I asked for a build sheet, and was told that I would receive one in the future. According to their catalog, "All sizes are recorded on a build sheet that is available at the time of purchase." (p.8) To date, I have still not received one.
I noticed for the dyno runs that they replaced the Six-Pak with a single 4bbl. Their reasoning was that it made more HP with the 4bbl. I asked for my Six-Pak setup back, since that was what I wanted to run. Eventually they did. So I took it home, and gave it to my engine builder here to dyno it, break it in since it only had three runs on it, and to back up the numbers.
He put it on his dyno (with my 6Pak), and it maked NO horsepower. He couldn't get more than 680hp out of it. After four passes, he decided something was wrong, so he took it off and tore it down. What he found was flat out terrifying.
1. He checked the static compression. Keep in mind, this was supposed to be a pump gas motor. When checked, the compression was 11.87:1. The breakaway rotational torque, without plugs, was measured at 90 ft-lbs.
2. When he drained the oil, it was so glittered, he thought he was back in the 70's. Come to find out, the main bearings were eating themselves up. One crank journal was already SEVERELY scored. The oil pan magnet was fully loaded with particulate. There was an abundance of silicone in the pickup as well. I have attached a pic of the filter media, clogged with glitter.
3. The balance job on the crank was very poorly executed. The counterweights were obliterated with huge holes that had been plunged to within an inch of their lives, some over 2" plunge depth. One of the weights had been filled back in with a welded freeze plug to cap it. All of this despite their assertion in their catalog that "...if you are paying to get your kit balanced, you should get it balance (sic) correctly." (p.16) The obvious correct balance method would have included a reduction in the counterweight diameter as opposed to a half dozen 1” diameter holes, plunged nearly all the way through the counterweight. The bearing clearances as measured ranged from .0009 to a maximum of .0015, way too tight to ever be assembled at a competent machine shop. They utilized .001 undersized main bearing to accomplish this.
4. The Jesel belt drive had been installed at A+0, but had “A-5=108 degrees” inked on it. The adjustment bolts on the cam timing hub were coated in so much Loctite that one of the bolt holes STRIPPED when it was loosened. I'm told that these are NEVER supposed to be Loctited.
5. The cam itself had massive lift and duration, probably partially owing to the high compression. I also did not receive my old roller cam, nor a credit for it.
6. For some reason, they drilled out the bleeder holes in my 2bbl carbs and plugged them with BB's. It is my understanding that this is an old trick to improve acceleration, but the fact is they now run horribly. I'm particularly disappointed about this because I have spent thousands of dollars and years getting them tuned. They're essentially ruined. I was not consulted on this decision, nor was I informed. I found out when I took it home.
7. The heads were apparently cut .075", and the intake was re-cut to fit. This also hurt my pump gas aspirations and made it difficult to return the engine to a reasonable static compression.
8. My old oil pump was replaced with a different one, complete with a 2 piece Milodon pump cover with standard gasket. I had a modified high-volume pump on there, and it was replaced with a standard volume one that was unrelieved. This is odd to me after reading in their catalog about how they "always use(d) high volume oil pumps in any performance engine build." (p.15), and that they DO NOT use the Milodon cover due to the many gasket failures. This seems wholly illogical to me because the World block is plumbed for a -12AN line to start with, deleting the need for an aftermarket pump cover of any kind.
9. My old three-piece pushrods were replaced with one-piece pushrods. I did not receive my old ones back, or a credit for them.
10. I did not receive my old valve springs back, nor a credit for them.
11. The distributor came back with the drive shaft tab that engages the pump drive ground down and a collar on it that seemed to do nothing. I could get no explanation on this, but we replaced the distributor shaft to fully engage the pump drive.
12. The new valve springs had .075" of shim under every single one, yet they installed lash caps, which I absolutely did not want due to the many street miles I drive. When the lash caps were removed, the rockers hit the retainers. They reused my old valve locks, which were worn hard from the 4 years of previous street use with high spring pressures. All of this was a simple fix- we installed -.050 valve locks, throw away the lash caps and shims, and all was good once again.
13. The new pistons were scored by burrs at the bottom of the bores because the bores had not been deburred, and they showed scuff marks on the skirts from nickel to quarter size, indicating that the bores were too tight and would have NEVER lived on the street. We rechecked the bore sizes, the clearances ranged from .0053 to .0065, none were round or straight.
14. The lifter bores were bushed, but were not drilled for oil holes to accommodate street driving.
15. Two connecting rods had their caps switched. They both measured .0015+ out of round, with the larger one measuring .002+ out of round as ran.
16. Muscle Motors installed 2.25 intake valves to increase the flow in my max ported Indy SR’s over the previous 2.19’s. We retested these on a SF-600 flowbench, the old versions flowed 356, the new 350, another failure.
17. After 4 runs at my engine builder's, and a supposed 3 runs at Muscle Motors, the cylinders leaked between 3% and 19%.
After being re-engineered/redone/what-have-you, including a smaller camshaft, it dynoed at 722hp in pump gas mode with the 6 pack setup.
Having spent well north of 20K with Muscle Motors on this project, I called to discuss this. I simply asked for reimbursement for the money I spent to repair it. I got the runaround for three weeks, and then got a verbal agreement for full reparations. They cut me a check for half of what I asked for, claiming that they would make it “completely right” soon after. When I tried to finalize our verbal agreement in the following weeks, I continued to get the runaround. I called over thirty times during a six week period, and finally was told that Muscle Motors felt we were even. I would get no more recompense, nor would I receive my old parts. Also missing in the exchange, besides the remainder of my hard parts, were several braided hoses, brackets and misc accessories from the 528.
As another aside, I decided to redo the engine again, and we recently installed Indy 440-1 heads, ported by Jeff at Modern Cylinder Head, and dynoed the motor at 798hp, pump gas, with the 6 pack. Knowing that the 6 pack wasn’t really enough air for this combo, we switched tops on the Indy NSS manifold and checked out twin four barrel carbs, resulting in 840hp with no tuning.
I have more pics from the reverse engineering process documenting the poor machining, installation and overall poor condition of the motor after a purported seven dyno runs.
So let me preface this by saying I've been lurking here for awhile, but this is my first post. I hope this doesn't marginalize what I have to say.
I noticed a negative Muscle Motors rant recently, and was tempted to jump in. I tried to resolve my recent issues with them repeatedly over the phone, but to no avail. I'm going to the Monster Mopar weekend at Gateway this weekend, and I don't want my experience to be tainted by this resentment I'm carrying around. In that spirit, I'm trying one final time to find recompense prior to attending an event I know they'll be at.
Last fall I killed a piston in my 528. I wasn't that upset about it because I wanted to move up to a 572 anyway. I talked with my regular engine builder, and he didn't think he could fit my project into his winter schedule. In lieu, he recommended Muscle Motors due to the positive feedback he'd heard on here. He gave me their catalog, and I read through it, impressed.
I called Mike up and explained my project: a 572 Six-Pak that runs on pump gas. He promised me a 30-day turnaround and a PROMISED MINIMUM of 800HP. Sounds good, right? So I took my whole combination up to Michigan, and headed home.
...
....
.....
....
...
30 days, 2 months, 3 months, 5 months passed. Finally, March came and I got the call. My motor's done!
Part list:
new World block
new Callies crank
new Diamond pistons (with a 30 cc dish)
new oil pan, pickup and pump
new cam
new pushrods (one piece)
new valve springs
new rocker adjusters
same heads, replaced the 2.19 valves w new 2.25 valves, same T&D rockers
same lifters
same intake (kind of...see below)
same carbs (but modified...see below)
same Jesel belt drive
same crank pickup
same distributor/cap/rotor (strangely modified...see below)
I got a single dyno sheet with a claimed 820HP and my motor, with a supposed three runs on it. I asked for a build sheet, and was told that I would receive one in the future. According to their catalog, "All sizes are recorded on a build sheet that is available at the time of purchase." (p.8) To date, I have still not received one.
I noticed for the dyno runs that they replaced the Six-Pak with a single 4bbl. Their reasoning was that it made more HP with the 4bbl. I asked for my Six-Pak setup back, since that was what I wanted to run. Eventually they did. So I took it home, and gave it to my engine builder here to dyno it, break it in since it only had three runs on it, and to back up the numbers.
He put it on his dyno (with my 6Pak), and it maked NO horsepower. He couldn't get more than 680hp out of it. After four passes, he decided something was wrong, so he took it off and tore it down. What he found was flat out terrifying.
1. He checked the static compression. Keep in mind, this was supposed to be a pump gas motor. When checked, the compression was 11.87:1. The breakaway rotational torque, without plugs, was measured at 90 ft-lbs.
2. When he drained the oil, it was so glittered, he thought he was back in the 70's. Come to find out, the main bearings were eating themselves up. One crank journal was already SEVERELY scored. The oil pan magnet was fully loaded with particulate. There was an abundance of silicone in the pickup as well. I have attached a pic of the filter media, clogged with glitter.
3. The balance job on the crank was very poorly executed. The counterweights were obliterated with huge holes that had been plunged to within an inch of their lives, some over 2" plunge depth. One of the weights had been filled back in with a welded freeze plug to cap it. All of this despite their assertion in their catalog that "...if you are paying to get your kit balanced, you should get it balance (sic) correctly." (p.16) The obvious correct balance method would have included a reduction in the counterweight diameter as opposed to a half dozen 1” diameter holes, plunged nearly all the way through the counterweight. The bearing clearances as measured ranged from .0009 to a maximum of .0015, way too tight to ever be assembled at a competent machine shop. They utilized .001 undersized main bearing to accomplish this.
4. The Jesel belt drive had been installed at A+0, but had “A-5=108 degrees” inked on it. The adjustment bolts on the cam timing hub were coated in so much Loctite that one of the bolt holes STRIPPED when it was loosened. I'm told that these are NEVER supposed to be Loctited.
5. The cam itself had massive lift and duration, probably partially owing to the high compression. I also did not receive my old roller cam, nor a credit for it.
6. For some reason, they drilled out the bleeder holes in my 2bbl carbs and plugged them with BB's. It is my understanding that this is an old trick to improve acceleration, but the fact is they now run horribly. I'm particularly disappointed about this because I have spent thousands of dollars and years getting them tuned. They're essentially ruined. I was not consulted on this decision, nor was I informed. I found out when I took it home.
7. The heads were apparently cut .075", and the intake was re-cut to fit. This also hurt my pump gas aspirations and made it difficult to return the engine to a reasonable static compression.
8. My old oil pump was replaced with a different one, complete with a 2 piece Milodon pump cover with standard gasket. I had a modified high-volume pump on there, and it was replaced with a standard volume one that was unrelieved. This is odd to me after reading in their catalog about how they "always use(d) high volume oil pumps in any performance engine build." (p.15), and that they DO NOT use the Milodon cover due to the many gasket failures. This seems wholly illogical to me because the World block is plumbed for a -12AN line to start with, deleting the need for an aftermarket pump cover of any kind.
9. My old three-piece pushrods were replaced with one-piece pushrods. I did not receive my old ones back, or a credit for them.
10. I did not receive my old valve springs back, nor a credit for them.
11. The distributor came back with the drive shaft tab that engages the pump drive ground down and a collar on it that seemed to do nothing. I could get no explanation on this, but we replaced the distributor shaft to fully engage the pump drive.
12. The new valve springs had .075" of shim under every single one, yet they installed lash caps, which I absolutely did not want due to the many street miles I drive. When the lash caps were removed, the rockers hit the retainers. They reused my old valve locks, which were worn hard from the 4 years of previous street use with high spring pressures. All of this was a simple fix- we installed -.050 valve locks, throw away the lash caps and shims, and all was good once again.
13. The new pistons were scored by burrs at the bottom of the bores because the bores had not been deburred, and they showed scuff marks on the skirts from nickel to quarter size, indicating that the bores were too tight and would have NEVER lived on the street. We rechecked the bore sizes, the clearances ranged from .0053 to .0065, none were round or straight.
14. The lifter bores were bushed, but were not drilled for oil holes to accommodate street driving.
15. Two connecting rods had their caps switched. They both measured .0015+ out of round, with the larger one measuring .002+ out of round as ran.
16. Muscle Motors installed 2.25 intake valves to increase the flow in my max ported Indy SR’s over the previous 2.19’s. We retested these on a SF-600 flowbench, the old versions flowed 356, the new 350, another failure.
17. After 4 runs at my engine builder's, and a supposed 3 runs at Muscle Motors, the cylinders leaked between 3% and 19%.
After being re-engineered/redone/what-have-you, including a smaller camshaft, it dynoed at 722hp in pump gas mode with the 6 pack setup.
Having spent well north of 20K with Muscle Motors on this project, I called to discuss this. I simply asked for reimbursement for the money I spent to repair it. I got the runaround for three weeks, and then got a verbal agreement for full reparations. They cut me a check for half of what I asked for, claiming that they would make it “completely right” soon after. When I tried to finalize our verbal agreement in the following weeks, I continued to get the runaround. I called over thirty times during a six week period, and finally was told that Muscle Motors felt we were even. I would get no more recompense, nor would I receive my old parts. Also missing in the exchange, besides the remainder of my hard parts, were several braided hoses, brackets and misc accessories from the 528.
As another aside, I decided to redo the engine again, and we recently installed Indy 440-1 heads, ported by Jeff at Modern Cylinder Head, and dynoed the motor at 798hp, pump gas, with the 6 pack. Knowing that the 6 pack wasn’t really enough air for this combo, we switched tops on the Indy NSS manifold and checked out twin four barrel carbs, resulting in 840hp with no tuning.
I have more pics from the reverse engineering process documenting the poor machining, installation and overall poor condition of the motor after a purported seven dyno runs.
Thank You Todd Fisher!!!(Todd440) 
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I understand where you're coming from on the differences of parts..and cost of parts! But..if a motor is put together PROFESSIONALLY...do a PROFESSIONAL job!!! That's all I'm sayin'! DIDN'T CHECK CLEARANCES???...LUDICROUS!! 
, but don't worry he will make it right.
maybe small claims is your answer if they don't pay.
