Re: new Hemi conversion vs 440 stroker
[Re: Alikazam]
#788085
09/01/10 12:46 PM
09/01/10 12:46 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,096 Irving, TX
feets
Senior Management
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Senior Management
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,096
Irving, TX
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Ali, you'll never get through to Yuck and some of the others. Progress is good. The architecture in the new hemi is light years ahead of the old wedges that were based on 50s era technology. The only thing the new engines lack is displacement. There is simply NO WAY an old 360 will make the same power as a 5.7 without giving up street manners and efficiency. The 6.1 will make more power than a similarly equipped 440. It's easy to make stupid power out of a 440. The same things can be done to the 6.1 to make it just as strong. It takes a pair of big money wedge heads to match the flow of the stock 6.1 heads. Add a little work to the new stuff and you'll be chasing B1 or big Indy heads to keep up.
Doesn't anybody rememebr the Jeep SRT running 9s with a full interior?
The new engine is a little pricier than the wedges. It's a little more difficult to swap at the moment too. However, those swaps are getting easier as more people get on board.
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind. - Stu Harmon
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Re: new Hemi conversion vs 440 stroker
[Re: Alikazam]
#788086
09/01/10 01:24 PM
09/01/10 01:24 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 72 San Angelo, Texas
Cevidicus
member
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member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 72
San Angelo, Texas
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450-500ish crank HP from 03-08 5.7 with stock heads(not ported) Requires something like this for a conversion into a classic with a carb: 750 TTI headers or <200 for manifolds 400 Milodon oil pan, windage tray, gasket set 600 Indy Modman intake 550ish 700-750 carb 750 MSD Hemi 6 ignition controller/harness for carb conversion 425 Inertia Motorsports cam Mild to wild custom ground 125 push rods 165 adjustable timing set 300+ valve springs <100 conversion flex plate or flex plate spacer set 135 TTi conversion brackets totals $4300 Thats not including the core engine with accessories (2000), power sterring conversion($?), A/c conversion($?), SB trans, or rings, rod, main, cam bearings and gasket set(500) if needed. Oh and the Lokar throttle/Kick down cables (200?) So you are looking at around $7000-$8000 if you start out from scratch to swap in a lopy idleing 5.7. Add anywhere from 1000 to 2500 if you want to go EFI. NOT including the fuel system. All in all not 'cheap' by any means. Even if all the stock components are used it is still costly and time consuming. And avoid the '09+ 5.7's with the VVT. Read my thread at FABO http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=97262 and you will understand why. Now Can someone post a part by part breakdown of a 440 build for comparison? I hope this helps. CM
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Re: new Hemi conversion vs 440 stroker
[Re: Cevidicus]
#788087
09/01/10 01:40 PM
09/01/10 01:40 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 72 San Angelo, Texas
Cevidicus
member
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member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 72
San Angelo, Texas
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Even if you keep the stock cam, the timing chain tensioner and valve springs(you can use stock 6.1 springs) should be replaced. On HorsePowerTV they took a boneyard 5.7 and rebuilt it with elect water pump($700!) and FAST EZEFI ($2000+), headers, stock cam with new rings, bearings and dyno'd 400 HP 400 ft lbs tq Oh, I forgot about replacing the MDS lifers and solonoids. Another 150-300 bones The 09 Eagle heads can not be used in stock form on the 03-08 5.7 short blocks because of thier 66cc chambers vs. the 08's 84cc. Inertia has Eagle heads with enlarged chambers that yield 10.75 + compression ratio on the 08 down short block. Otherwise those heads will have like 12.5:1 CR! If you are a glutton for punishment, like me, Nothing Beats the Cool Factor of a Modern Powerplant. But, you have to think out every detail and do your home work to make it work and not waste money. I say go Gen III Hemi. How many 1st gen Challengers have big blocks? 90%?
Last edited by Sweet H2O; 09/01/10 01:55 PM.
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Re: new Hemi conversion vs 440 stroker
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#788088
09/01/10 01:57 PM
09/01/10 01:57 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318 Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
Build what you want to run/drive the way you want.
Then whats the point of asking everybodys opinion? He asked for it, and he got it. Yeah, go with the new Hemi then. Drop literally thousands of dollars on something that will run like a mild 360. Thats an apples and oranges comparison anyway. Gee, stroked 440, or a stock 5.7 Hemi. Speaking of, I was thinking about combinations for my Charger. What do you think? Maybe pick up a stock slant 6, or a 528 Hemi??? Hmm...too close to call! Decisions decisions....
If you read my post you will see I suggested the 440 over the 5.7. I agree bang for your buck the 440 is a much better option. I just think your comment of threatening to walk right by his car at a car show if he puts in a 5.7 hemi is totally ridiculous. Because I'm sure that's the deciding factor for him.
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Re: new Hemi conversion vs 440 stroker
[Re: feets]
#788089
09/01/10 02:07 PM
09/01/10 02:07 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562 Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
Ali, you'll never get through to Yuck and some of the others. Progress is good. The architecture in the new hemi is light years ahead of the old wedges that were based on 50s era technology. The only thing the new engines lack is displacement. There is simply NO WAY an old 360 will make the same power as a 5.7 without giving up street manners and efficiency. The 6.1 will make more power than a similarly equipped 440. It's easy to make stupid power out of a 440. The same things can be done to the 6.1 to make it just as strong. It takes a pair of big money wedge heads to match the flow of the stock 6.1 heads. Add a little work to the new stuff and you'll be chasing B1 or big Indy heads to keep up.
Doesn't anybody rememebr the Jeep SRT running 9s with a full interior?
The new engine is a little pricier than the wedges. It's a little more difficult to swap at the moment too. However, those swaps are getting easier as more people get on board.
I don't really have anything against them. However right now it's NOT a cheap swap. And it souldn't be entertained by somebody that doesn't have deep pockets. I think Daytona has the best reply here by running down the actual cost of things. For the OP to think he can drop a 5.7 into his Challey and roll and spend less time and $$$ than by building a mild 440 is crazy. If somebody gave him the 5.7 he's still looking at thousands of dollars not mention the time to get it all up and running. AND it might match the HP numbers (oh and he's not talking about an 09 engine) it's at a much higher RPM and will make no where near the torque of a 440.
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Re: new Hemi conversion vs 440 stroker
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#788090
09/01/10 03:12 PM
09/01/10 03:12 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562 Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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HERE save yourself some $$$ and aggravation. Plus you can sell the exhaust manis for a few hundred, the heads and intake for another $500. (since you already have the stealths. With a little more cam this could be a real strong runner for your e-body.
Fresh 68 forged steel crank engine 440 + .030. Carb to pan Including nice set of 68-69 HP exhaust manifolds. I believe this to be an original hi po engine but stamped numbers on top pad are almost gone. Pan rail numbers are PT440S24610641. Casting date 1 26 68. Balanced forged piston rotating assy with moly rings. Redone stock rods with new pins and fasteners. All machine work just done, crank turned, block square decked align honed, bored .030, new cam bearings etc. Top line new or rebuilt parts. Mildly ported iron heads all fresh, stainless valves. Hyd cam 442 465 272 282. Edelbrock Performer Intake. Engine tested and cam broken in with Brad Penn break in oil containing all proper additives. Pro assembled. Stock style pan with windage tray. Prefer local pickup here in N.E. Ohio but will deliver reasonable distance for fuel cost or free delivery to Norwalk Chrysler Classic with pre payment. Can also deliver to local shipper for palletizing and shipping at buyers expense. Can arrange for buyer to hear run on test stand depnding upon engine builder schedule.
Engine tested and cam broken in using Brad Penn break in oil containing all proper additives. Runs, looks and sounds great.
Asking $3895
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Re: new Hemi conversion vs 440 stroker
[Re: hemibeep]
#788092
09/01/10 09:17 PM
09/01/10 09:17 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 72 San Angelo, Texas
Cevidicus
member
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member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 72
San Angelo, Texas
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60 for block off plate 60 for remote oil filter..... If using car front cover, you need iether a custom radiator or that long ass hose from an 09 truck...
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Re: new Hemi conversion vs 440 stroker
[Re: torqueaddict]
#788094
09/02/10 08:20 AM
09/02/10 08:20 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562 Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
Honestly I am starting to think it will be the same by the time I put both motors in, the only difference is I could probably put the 440 in myself. I guess if I cant sell the 440source heads then the decision may be made for me I have the rods, the block, and crank. I know even to build a "mild 440" this will be somewhat expensive the whole reason for the stroker, hemi battle was because my machinist said why build a motor you dont want for $700 cheaper than the motor you want. I may have to wait until the hemi swap becomes cheaper, this is a really tough choice tho. With unlimited money I think I would have to go new 6.1 hemi javascript:void(0)
I guess you didn't read my last post complete NEW 440 intake to oil pan $3800 OBO. AND it will drop right in. I guess cost isn't really your main concern. good luck finding a 6.1 for under 6k.
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Re: new Hemi conversion vs 440 stroker
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#788095
09/02/10 09:37 AM
09/02/10 09:37 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,274 A gulag near you.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,274
A gulag near you.
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Quote:
Quote:
Honestly I am starting to think it will be the same by the time I put both motors in, the only difference is I could probably put the 440 in myself. I guess if I cant sell the 440source heads then the decision may be made for me I have the rods, the block, and crank. I know even to build a "mild 440" this will be somewhat expensive the whole reason for the stroker, hemi battle was because my machinist said why build a motor you dont want for $700 cheaper than the motor you want. I may have to wait until the hemi swap becomes cheaper, this is a really tough choice tho. With unlimited money I think I would have to go new 6.1 hemi javascript:void(0)
I guess you didn't read my last post complete NEW 440 intake to oil pan $3800 OBO. AND it will drop right in. I guess cost isn't really your main concern. good luck finding a 6.1 for under 6k.
Jeff you're pretty much talking to yourself at this point.
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Re: new Hemi conversion vs 440 stroker
[Re: torqueaddict]
#788097
09/02/10 10:25 AM
09/02/10 10:25 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562 Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
I guess you didn't read my last post complete NEW 440 intake to oil pan $3800 OBO. AND it will drop right in. I guess cost isn't really your main concern. good luck finding a 6.1 for under 6k. [/quo
I read your post but for 3800 I can buy a stroker kit and have my block machined. If I am going to build a 440 I may as well build the 440 I want. Besides I dont like buying stuff from other states unless its from a reputable manufacturer. That way if something goes wrong you have some form of recourse. If cost was no Issue, I would just buy a brand new 6.1 from Indy for 7k. Look man, I understand you love raised block motors, thats cool. But when it comes to reliability and factor Gen 3 Hemi's cant be beat. If you know me personally you know I dont want to be like everyone else. Thats why I got a mopar in the first place. Where I live there are none and if someone has one its a piece of junk or one that isnt cool (thats why I would not want the common big block) . I respect your opinion and value your comments and anyone elses. I will keep you posted on the build as it progresses I still havent made a decision but you have made me think.
I like both. You posted a question and I told you what I think you easiest, cheapest option is. Sounds like you had your mind set before you made the post. Good luck with your project.
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Re: new Hemi conversion vs 440 stroker
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#788098
09/02/10 01:10 PM
09/02/10 01:10 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 185 east bay ca
torqueaddict
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 185
east bay ca
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Quote:
Quote:
I guess you didn't read my last post complete NEW 440 intake to oil pan $3800 OBO. AND it will drop right in. I guess cost isn't really your main concern. good luck finding a 6.1 for under 6k. [/quo
I read your post but for 3800 I can buy a stroker kit and have my block machined. If I am going to build a 440 I may as well build the 440 I want. Besides I dont like buying stuff from other states unless its from a reputable manufacturer. That way if something goes wrong you have some form of recourse. If cost was no Issue, I would just buy a brand new 6.1 from Indy for 7k. Look man, I understand you love raised block motors, thats cool. But when it comes to reliability and factor Gen 3 Hemi's cant be beat. If you know me personally you know I dont want to be like everyone else. Thats why I got a mopar in the first place. Where I live there are none and if someone has one its a piece of junk or one that isnt cool (thats why I would not want the common big block) . I respect your opinion and value your comments and anyone elses. I will keep you posted on the build as it progresses I still havent made a decision but you have made me think.
I like both. You posted a question and I told you what I think you easiest, cheapest option is. Sounds like you had your mind set before you made the post. Good luck with your project.
I was leaning I really want a 440 stroker but the Hemi seemed cheaper. Guys were saying if I buy the parts used for the Hemi you can do the swap pretty cheap.
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Re: new Hemi conversion vs 440 stroker
[Re: RTSrunner]
#788099
09/02/10 01:43 PM
09/02/10 01:43 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 387 Almont, MI.
gdemon
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 387
Almont, MI.
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Ive done 4 hemi swaps so far and i think the prices are a little high. First off you can buy a complete 6.1 brand new for less then 6250 from the dealer. https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...e=1&fpart=1used 5.7 $1000 on the high end oil pan and pick up $300 gasket is reusable Motor mounts $125 TTI Exhaust manifolds $free comes with motor Harness and computer $1400 Hot Wire Throttle Control $240 Dealer elect fan $15 u pick yard Rad Alum $200 Ebay 6.1 rad Hoses $50 Dealer Electric Fuel pump kit $350 Rock Valley Flex Plate $100 Mancini 45 deg oil filter adpt $50 Dealer 6.1 cam $115 Dealer 16 6.1 exhaust springs $80 Dealer 16 6.1 push rods $40 Dealer $4065. Now there is a Guy in the new product section that has harnesses for $ 895. and then find a used Computer for a 2004 dodge ram manual trans. I got mine for $100. Im sure I for got something but this pretty well sums it up. I know its not s stroker motor but a Gen III can make some nice hp too.My Demon got 20.1mpg @ 75 mph with a 355 gear and no overdrive coming back from the Nats.
69 Barracuda
70 Cuda
70 Cuda
70 Cuda Conv.
70 T/A Challenger
70 Sport Fury GT
71 Demon 5.7 Hemi
72 Demon
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Re: new Hemi conversion vs 440 stroker
[Re: gdemon]
#788100
09/02/10 01:55 PM
09/02/10 01:55 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562 Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
Ive done 4 hemi swaps so far and i think the prices are a little high. First off you can buy a complete 6.1 brand new for less then 6250 from the dealer. https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...e=1&fpart=1 used 5.7 $1000 on the high end oil pan and pick up $300 gasket is reusable Motor mounts $125 TTI Exhaust manifolds $free comes with motor Harness and computer $1400 Hot Wire Throttle Control $240 Dealer elect fan $15 u pick yard Rad Alum $200 Ebay 6.1 rad Hoses $50 Dealer Electric Fuel pump kit $350 Rock Valley Flex Plate $100 Mancini 45 deg oil filter adpt $50 Dealer 6.1 cam $115 Dealer 16 6.1 exhaust springs $80 Dealer 16 6.1 push rods $40 Dealer
$4065. Now there is a Guy in the new product section that has harnesses for $ 895. and then find a used Computer for a 2004 dodge ram manual trans. I got mine for $100. Im sure I for got something but this pretty well sums it up. I know its not s stroker motor but a Gen III can make some nice hp too.My Demon got 20.1mpg @ 75 mph with a 355 gear and no overdrive coming back from the Nats.
Only problem with all that is you are getting a USED engine and that's just the cost of the parts, meaning he'd have to be able to do all the work himself. I think these swaps will become easier and cheaper in the years out when more aftermarket products hit the street and more people do it. He can also run an O/D trans w/ the 440 and get decent MPG's.
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Re: new Hemi conversion vs 440 stroker
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#788101
09/02/10 02:15 PM
09/02/10 02:15 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 15,126 85086
moparpollack
Lil Herman
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Lil Herman
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 15,126
85086
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When I get home I want to do a hemi conversion in my 72 Duster. Here's the benefit to the new hemi, you can beat the tar out of them and unless you throw a rod thru the pan your ounly out $1k if you break something. With the stroker 440 you have a scrap iron that will take $$$$ to rebuild. To me this is like being in the 60-70s if you puked a motor you can go to the junkyard get a motor do a cam swap and you are back in business on the cheap.
56 Plaza 63 D100 step side 67 Coronet, 68 Roadrunner, 69 Super Bees, 69 Coronet 500 convertible, 70 Roadrunner Post, 79 D150 360, and a severe case of Mopar a,d,d
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Re: new Hemi conversion vs 440 stroker
[Re: moparpollack]
#788102
09/02/10 02:23 PM
09/02/10 02:23 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 387 Almont, MI.
gdemon
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 387
Almont, MI.
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True it is a used engine. My last Hemi I got had 9000 miles on it. Its not new but pretty close.So if your not in a big hurry and have time to shop you can find some great deals.
Jerry
69 Barracuda
70 Cuda
70 Cuda
70 Cuda Conv.
70 T/A Challenger
70 Sport Fury GT
71 Demon 5.7 Hemi
72 Demon
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Re: new Hemi conversion vs 440 stroker
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#788103
09/02/10 05:40 PM
09/02/10 05:40 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 185 east bay ca
torqueaddict
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 185
east bay ca
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Quote:
Quote:
Ive done 4 hemi swaps so far and i think the prices are a little high. First off you can buy a complete 6.1 brand new for less then 6250 from the dealer. https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...e=1&fpart=1 used 5.7 $1000 on the high end oil pan and pick up $300 gasket is reusable Motor mounts $125 TTI Exhaust manifolds $free comes with motor Harness and computer $1400 Hot Wire Throttle Control $240 Dealer elect fan $15 u pick yard Rad Alum $200 Ebay 6.1 rad Hoses $50 Dealer Electric Fuel pump kit $350 Rock Valley Flex Plate $100 Mancini 45 deg oil filter adpt $50 Dealer 6.1 cam $115 Dealer 16 6.1 exhaust springs $80 Dealer 16 6.1 push rods $40 Dealer
$4065. Now there is a Guy in the new product section that has harnesses for $ 895. and then find a used Computer for a 2004 dodge ram manual trans. I got mine for $100. Im sure I for got something but this pretty well sums it up. I know its not s stroker motor but a Gen III can make some nice hp too.My Demon got 20.1mpg @ 75 mph with a 355 gear and no overdrive coming back from the Nats.
Only problem with all that is you are getting a USED engine and that's just the cost of the parts, meaning he'd have to be able to do all the work himself. I think these swaps will become easier and cheaper in the years out when more aftermarket products hit the street and more people do it. He can also run an O/D trans w/ the 440 and get decent MPG's.
I'm really not in any rush I may put the source heads on my 383 change my rear end and just wait till I move cross country to do anything( this will give me a chance to complete my car and enjoy the bb I already have
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