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Re: I tryed E 85 on old blue
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#775156
08/17/10 08:39 PM
08/17/10 08:39 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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Quote:
Saw E-85 at a staion near work today $2.52 a Gallon! I guess it's too late for me to swap my 440-6 over..lol
Of course you can't compare gallon to gallon as you have to use significantly more E85 than gasoline. The gain in heat energy is approximately 10% for straight ethanol. Just remember all that heat doesn't go to making HP. Approximately 45% goes out the tail pipe, 30% goes out the cooling system, and 25% makes useable power. 25% of 10% is only 2.5% - so if everything is right, you might gain 2.5% in power - and that's with straight ethanol. Obviously with E85 it will be something less than 2.5%. Since race gas and ethanol have about the same octane rating, if you consider detonation as the limiting factor for making power, it's a wash. The big bennie would come in latent heat of evaporation, aka., heat of vaporization or cooling. With the cooler charge you could possibly run a higher CR and stay out of detonation. Remember, the benefit in HP to running a higher CR really flattens out after about 12:1. After that the engine stresses start to go way up ( look how diesel engines are built ) while power gains rapidly deminish. Add this to the costs involved in modifying your fuel system to handle the addition fuel, toxicity/ afinity for water with ethanol, possible valve recession and lubrication issues, and - well, I aint sold yet. I realize that it will be difficult to put a $ number to all these factors, and some will occur over time, but to some extent, they will occur. JMHO, and I applaude those that are trying it ( even if they gotta deal with green boosters and jet blocks  ). I'll keep pumpin Ethal for a while. 
Fastest 300
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Re: I tryed E 85 on old blue
[Re: Crizila]
#775157
08/17/10 09:03 PM
08/17/10 09:03 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Quote:
Saw E-85 at a staion near work today $2.52 a Gallon! I guess it's too late for me to swap my 440-6 over..lol
Of course you can't compare gallon to gallon as you have to use significantly more E85 than gasoline. The gain in heat energy is approximately 10% for straight ethanol. Just remember all that heat doesn't go to making HP. Approximately 45% goes out the tail pipe, 30% goes out the cooling system, and 25% makes useable power. 25% of 10% is only 2.5% - so if everything is right, you might gain 2.5% in power - and that's with straight ethanol. Obviously with E85 it will be something less than 2.5%. Since race gas and ethanol have about the same octane rating, if you consider detonation as the limiting factor for making power, it's a wash. The big bennie would come in latent heat of evaporation, aka., heat of vaporization or cooling. With the cooler charge you could possibly run a higher CR and stay out of detonation. Remember, the benefit in HP to running a higher CR really flattens out after about 12:1. After that the engine stresses start to go way up ( look how diesel engines are built ) while power gains rapidly deminish. Add this to the costs involved in modifying your fuel system to handle the addition fuel, toxicity/ afinity for water with ethanol, possible valve recession and lubrication issues, and - well, I aint sold yet. I realize that it will be difficult to put a $ number to all these factors, and some will occur over time, but to some extent, they will occur. JMHO, and I applaude those that are trying it ( even if they gotta deal with green boosters and jet blocks ). I'll keep pumpin Ethal for a while.
It takes 30% more E-85 to make the same BTU as gas
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Re: I tryed E 85 on old blue
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#775158
08/17/10 09:55 PM
08/17/10 09:55 PM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 2,110
toledo, ohio
plasticfantastic
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 2,110
toledo, ohio
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Quote:
I finally got my Lm-1 back so sometime soon I'm going
to check mine out again.... I got it idling nice now
(on my 396ci)but I need to check the mid again
YAY!!!!
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Re: I tryed E 85 on old blue
[Re: Leigh]
#775160
08/17/10 10:38 PM
08/17/10 10:38 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
If the fuel mixture ratio is stoic for the type of fuel being used, how is more or less of that type of fuel, being either used, or passed through the engine, a factor in percentage of efficiency? Are they (E85 and gasoline) not capable of less than 12.5-1? I don't get the negative. If one is seeing 9 or 10-1, well yes. But 12-1? I don't get it. Help!
I'm not really understanding your question... but
stoic is stoic... based on the fuel being used
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Re: I tryed E 85 on old blue
[Re: plasticfantastic]
#775161
08/17/10 10:40 PM
08/17/10 10:40 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Quote:
I finally got my Lm-1 back so sometime soon I'm going
to check mine out again.... I got it idling nice now
(on my 396ci)but I need to check the mid again
YAY!!!!
Yeah I got it idling nice now Doug... no issues there
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Re: I tryed E 85 on old blue
[Re: Crizila]
#775163
08/18/10 11:44 AM
08/18/10 11:44 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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Quote:
Quote:
If the fuel mixture ratio is stoic for the type of fuel being used, how is more or less of that type of fuel, being either used, or passed through the engine, a factor in percentage of efficiency? Are they (E85 and gasoline) not capable of less than 12.5-1? I don't get the negative. If one is seeing 9 or 10-1, well yes. But 12-1? I don't get it. Help!
It is better than gasoline in terms of specific energy ( Ethanol = 3.00 SE and Gasoline = 2.92 SE ) since it's low heating value is more than offset by the low stoichiometric air-fuel ratio. In addition, max power is obtained at a much richer ratio so that under these conditions the SE is considerably higher than gasoline, where max power is obtained only at about 20% richer than stoic.
To put this another way - as an example: To make max power with gas, you gotta go 20% richer than the gas Stoic #. To make max power with ethanol, you gotta go 25% richer than its stoic #. More fuel, more power. It appears ( based on the guys on this sight that are using it ), it's good for maybe a tenth in ET. That's significant when your running 9's / 10's.
Fastest 300
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Re: I tryed E 85 on old blue
[Re: Crizila]
#775164
08/18/10 12:29 PM
08/18/10 12:29 PM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,442
LOWELL IN
QWK_ENUF
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,442
LOWELL IN
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to put it in laymans terms if you need 108-110 race gas in your race engine than you will SAVE MONEY switching to E85 if you can drive with unleaded pump gas than forget the E85 EXTRA E85 PERKS saves money runs cooler posible performance increase NEGATIVES initial conversion cost so far i have 4 cars i have converted to E85 the no brainer way and all run as good or better than race gas current cost is 2.09 gal for us and 3 of us are running 9 sec ET's i luv it 
WAXER
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Re: I tryed E 85 on old blue
[Re: joshking440]
#775166
08/18/10 04:12 PM
08/18/10 04:12 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,528
Mansfield, Tx
Jacob Pitt
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,528
Mansfield, Tx
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I just switched my Mom's Duster over to e85 and will be taking it to the track to try it out today. It ran on pump gas 93 but was pushing the limits with it in the heat. We'll see what it runs.
2013 NHRA D4 Stock Champ
#4 in the World IHRA Stock
2x IHRA Div.4 Stock Champ
14x Track Champ
All using a Ultimate Converter Concepts converter. Call Lenny today 704-892-6837
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Re: I tryed E 85 on old blue
[Re: Crizila]
#775168
08/18/10 06:00 PM
08/18/10 06:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
If the fuel mixture ratio is stoic for the type of fuel being used, how is more or less of that type of fuel, being either used, or passed through the engine, a factor in percentage of efficiency? Are they (E85 and gasoline) not capable of less than 12.5-1? I don't get the negative. If one is seeing 9 or 10-1, well yes. But 12-1? I don't get it. Help!
It is better than gasoline in terms of specific energy ( Ethanol = 3.00 SE and Gasoline = 2.92 SE ) since it's low heating value is more than offset by the low stoichiometric air-fuel ratio. In addition, max power is obtained at a much richer ratio so that under these conditions the SE is considerably higher than gasoline, where max power is obtained only at about 20% richer than stoic.
To put this another way - as an example: To make max power with gas, you gotta go 20% richer than the gas Stoic #. To make max power with ethanol, you gotta go 25% richer than its stoic #. More fuel, more power. It appears ( based on the guys on this sight that are using it ), it's good for maybe a tenth in ET. That's significant when your running 9's / 10's.
 toomuch math for me...ahhhhhhheeee
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Re: I tryed E 85 on old blue
[Re: CRT]
#775170
08/18/10 09:16 PM
08/18/10 09:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,929
NC
440Jim
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,929
NC
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Quote:
E 85 is the hot ticket.
What size gas carb were you running and what size E85 carb did you borrow?
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Now if you are from Oklahoma,--- 
Of coures, you can always buy it at the track if you run low 
