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Need Help! Engine ran Backwards #736989
06/29/10 09:43 PM
06/29/10 09:43 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 154
Escondido, CA
64physhy Offline OP
member
64physhy  Offline OP
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Escondido, CA
I've been trying to get my carb running right on my 414 stroker for a while now. I haven't been able to get it to idle below about 2000 RPM without dying. I took it apart and blew it out, and found a couple chunks of plastic in it, so thought I found the problem. When I started it, it started right up, but still wouldn't idle below 2000 RPM, although I never got it warmed up enough to know for sure. I let it die after a couple minutes, and when I tried to start it again, the engine turned backwards for about 3 seconds...several revolutions.
The timing is locked out at 30* with a 20* start retard on an MSD E-Curve.
Carb is a Proform 750.
Compression is 10:1 with Iron Ram heads

Could I have skipped the timing chain when this happened? What all do I need to check??

Re: Need Help! Engine ran Backwards [Re: 64physhy] #736990
06/29/10 09:58 PM
06/29/10 09:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,935
Grand Prairie,Texas
stumpy Offline
I Win
stumpy  Offline
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Posts: 32,935
Grand Prairie,Texas
Are you running a plastic coated timing gear. If you are then I would replace it with a metal set. Also pull your dirtibutor and check the gear on it.

Re: Need Help! Engine ran Backwards [Re: stumpy] #736991
06/29/10 10:14 PM
06/29/10 10:14 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,664
IN
A
ahy Offline
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ahy  Offline
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IN
The oil pump doesn't pump oil running backwards but 3 seconds wouldn't likley be enough to hurt bearings ect.

Re: Need Help! Engine ran Backwards [Re: stumpy] #736992
06/29/10 10:24 PM
06/29/10 10:24 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 154
Escondido, CA
64physhy Offline OP
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64physhy  Offline OP
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Escondido, CA
Timing gear is not plastic coated. I do have a chain tensioner, so not sure if that would matter for anything.

Re: Need Help! Engine ran Backwards [Re: 64physhy] #736993
06/29/10 11:07 PM
06/29/10 11:07 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 871
WA 98043
thecarfarmer Offline
super stock
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Posts: 871
WA 98043
Quote:

I've been trying to get my carb running right on my 414 stroker for a while now. I haven't been able to get it to idle below about 2000 RPM without dying. I took it apart and blew it out, and found a couple chunks of plastic in it, so thought I found the problem. When I started it, it started right up, but still wouldn't idle below 2000 RPM, although I never got it warmed up enough to know for sure. I let it die after a couple minutes, and when I tried to start it again, the engine turned backwards for about 3 seconds...several revolutions.
The timing is locked out at 30* with a 20* start retard on an MSD E-Curve.
Carb is a Proform 750.
Compression is 10:1 with Iron Ram heads

Could I have skipped the timing chain when this happened? What all do I need to check??




There are two things you're describing; they may both be related... or not.

Has this engine ever run right, or is this something that was just put together, and you can't get it to idle?

First thing I'd try is to rule out the carb. Either put a known good piece on the engine, and get running, or put the carb on a known good engine and see if it works.

Obviously, once the carb is on an engine that you know runs well, you can get some approximate idle mixture and speed set. If the engine in question hasn't run before, it's a good idea to have the carb pretty well proven.

So, if the carburetor is the culprit...

You found the plastic in the carb, right? Where did you find it? Float bowls? Jammed into metering orifices?

The real question there is: why is the plastic there? What has broken, and what has been plugged up with plastic shrapnel.

It might be something from manufacturing. Or something from a needle/seat, or c) none of the above.

The 'won't idle below 2K' thing sounds like it could be one of two problems: a big air leak, or idle circuits not working. I'm going to jump out on a limb and guess the Proform carb doesn't have the old-style power valve circuitry that can blow out with a backfire...

of course, if the engine spews black smoke, that might be a place to check.

If the idle circuits don't work, then you'll need to speed the engine up to pull out of the venturi boosters and get on the main circuit. This may be the cause of the problem. The cure is to disassemble the carb, taking notes (and pics if possible); note every gasket (is one torn/damaged/blocking?). Then sit down with a good book (like the "Holley" book sold at the speed shop, not a romance novel or anything) and chase all the passages with spray carb cleaner.

Check that the idle air bleeds are free, and blow cleaner thru every path in the idle circuit.

Reassemble the carb, and check that the gaskets you're putting in aren't going to leave anything unsealed or block any passages. Take more carb spray, and do one last set of checks for good luck that you still have connection from the idle mix holes to the circuits in the metering block, and the bleeds. Then put the bowls back on. Either pray or perform voodoo as your beliefs dictate.

If you put a carb on the engine that's proven to be good, and you still have the high idle speed, I'd look for a vacuum leak. A pretty big one.

PCV? Brake booster line? All those vacuum plugs tight? Vacuum advance?

I always check hoses first; they're easy enough to pinch w/ pliers and see what happens. Faster than taking 'em off to see if the gizmo at the other end is leaking.

Then start squirting carb spray at places where you can have leaks. Carb base, plenum, manifold runners. If you get a response from spraying somewhere (other than at the top of the carb), bingo!

Now,as far as running backwards... beats me. If the thing didn't run real nice with a good carb on it, I'd try a compression test, and I'd TDC the engine, and check that the intake valve closing is where it is supposed to be. A skipped tooth on a timing chain will show up as being out a bunch (I don't have one here to count, but I'd expect 15-20 degrees per tooth; something like that... someone here wlil probably know).

Hope this helps.

-Bill


Seduce the attractive, and charm the rest. ****** 489 C.I.D., roller cam, aftermarket heads, tunnel ram, stock '54 Dodge rear axle assembly: which of these doesn't belong?
Re: Need Help! Engine ran Backwards [Re: thecarfarmer] #736994
06/30/10 01:16 AM
06/30/10 01:16 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 357
Lake Elmo, MN
Evil Monkey Offline
enthusiast
Evil Monkey  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 357
Lake Elmo, MN
Quote:

chase all the passages with spray carb cleaner.





Remember to wear eye protection when doing this. When spraying the passages, the carb cleaner can go all kinds of directions, and the direction it likes to go the most is straight towards your eyes. It really stings... DAMHIK


1974 'Cuda 360/TKO 1990 Ram Van 1998 Neon
Re: Need Help! Engine ran Backwards [Re: thecarfarmer] #736995
06/30/10 01:27 AM
06/30/10 01:27 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 154
Escondido, CA
64physhy Offline OP
member
64physhy  Offline OP
member

Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 154
Escondido, CA
Quote:



Has this engine ever run right, or is this something that was just put together, and you can't get it to idle?
It was recently put together, but ran good for break-in, and a couple short drives, then started acting up.

First thing I'd try is to rule out the carb. Either put a known good piece on the engine, and get running, or put the carb on a known good engine and see if it works.
Good Idea, but I don't have another engine that a 750 wouldn't choke out. I have another carb, but not sure if it's good, and it's a 650.

Obviously, once the carb is on an engine that you know runs well, you can get some approximate idle mixture and speed set. If the engine in question hasn't run before, it's a good idea to have the carb pretty well proven.

So, if the carburetor is the culprit...

You found the plastic in the carb, right? Where did you find it? Float bowls? Jammed into metering orifices?
In the float bowls. didn't see any in the metering orifices with a flashlight

The real question there is: why is the plastic there? What has broken, and what has been plugged up with plastic shrapnel.
probably from those crappy clear float bowl windows that have removed

It might be something from manufacturing. Or something from a needle/seat, or c) none of the above.

The 'won't idle below 2K' thing sounds like it could be one of two problems: a big air leak, or idle circuits not working. I'm going to jump out on a limb and guess the Proform carb doesn't have the old-style power valve circuitry that can blow out with a backfire...
Had found a leak around the base and replaced the gaskets. Come to think of it, I didn't check again after I replaced them, but I checked the carb base and it wasn't warped.

of course, if the engine spews black smoke, that might be a place to check.
no black smoke

If the idle circuits don't work, then you'll need to speed the engine up to pull out of the venturi boosters and get on the main circuit. This may be the cause of the problem. The cure is to disassemble the carb, taking notes (and pics if possible); note every gasket (is one torn/damaged/blocking?). Then sit down with a good book (like the "Holley" book sold at the speed shop, not a romance novel or anything) and chase all the passages with spray carb cleaner.

Check that the idle air bleeds are free, and blow cleaner thru every path in the idle circuit.

Reassemble the carb, and check that the gaskets you're putting in aren't going to leave anything unsealed or block any passages. Take more carb spray, and do one last set of checks for good luck that you still have connection from the idle mix holes to the circuits in the metering block, and the bleeds. Then put the bowls back on. Either pray or perform voodoo as your beliefs dictate.
Most of the above is way over my head

If you put a carb on the engine that's proven to be good, and you still have the high idle speed, I'd look for a vacuum leak. A pretty big one.

PCV? Brake booster line? All those vacuum plugs tight? Vacuum advance?
nothing vacuum operated, all 3 ports capped on the carb.

I always check hoses first; they're easy enough to pinch w/ pliers and see what happens. Faster than taking 'em off to see if the gizmo at the other end is leaking.

Then start squirting carb spray at places where you can have leaks. Carb base, plenum, manifold runners. If you get a response from spraying somewhere (other than at the top of the carb), bingo!

Now,as far as running backwards... beats me. If the thing didn't run real nice with a good carb on it, I'd try a compression test, and I'd TDC the engine, and check that the intake valve closing is where it is supposed to be. A skipped tooth on a timing chain will show up as being out a bunch (I don't have one here to count, but I'd expect 15-20 degrees per tooth; something like that... someone here wlil probably know).

Hope this helps.

-Bill




Thanks for all the good info.

The other carb I have is a C&S built Holley 650 that's been sitting for a while. I took the bowls off today and it looked good, but smelled like stale gas. I might try it, but it's kind of a shot in the dark.

Re: Need Help! Engine ran Backwards [Re: stumpy] #736996
06/30/10 01:41 AM
06/30/10 01:41 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline
Striving for excellence
Kern Dog  Offline
Striving for excellence

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Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
When I was a teenager in high school, my sisters boyfriend said that he was trying to push start a 4 speed car. He was rolling it down a hill and jumped in, shoved it ito gear then popped the clutch. The problem WAS that it was in REVERSE! He said that it actually ran, but very rough. I still think that he was lying, but I have never personally tested this out.

Re: Need Help! Engine ran Backwards [Re: Kern Dog] #736997
06/30/10 07:03 AM
06/30/10 07:03 AM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,336
South-Central (Sebring), FL
Commando1 Offline
master
Commando1  Offline
master

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,336
South-Central (Sebring), FL
I've accidently run diesels backwards. Never heard of a gas doing that. Hey, now you have a marine engine.

Re: Need Help! Engine ran Backwards [Re: Kern Dog] #736998
06/30/10 07:44 AM
06/30/10 07:44 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,503
NJ
4
440challenger Offline
master
440challenger  Offline
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Posts: 4,503
NJ
Quote:

When I was a teenager in high school, my sisters boyfriend said that he was trying to push start a 4 speed car. He was rolling it down a hill and jumped in, shoved it ito gear then popped the clutch. The problem WAS that it was in REVERSE! He said that it actually ran, but very rough. I still think that he was lying, but I have never personally tested this out.




I bump start straight six fords all the time in R. It works

Re: Need Help! Engine ran Backwards [Re: 440challenger] #736999
06/30/10 09:14 PM
06/30/10 09:14 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline
Striving for excellence
Kern Dog  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Imagine 4 reverse speeds and one forward!

Re: Need Help! Engine ran Backwards [Re: 64physhy] #737000
06/30/10 10:40 PM
06/30/10 10:40 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,356
Kentucky
D
dfsmopars Offline
top fuel
dfsmopars  Offline
top fuel
D

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,356
Kentucky
I had a two stroke motorcycle that ran backwards. When the rpm would drop to an idle you could hear it start to die, recover and then idle back up. Then if you wern't thinking you'd pop the clutch and over the handle bars you'd go. I know two stroke is a different animal than four stroke. Maybe this is just useless information.


‘72 Charger, 5.9 Magnum, Tremec 5 spd., Pro-Touring
‘14 Big Horn, Quad Cab, 4x4, 1500
Re: Need Help! Engine ran Backwards [Re: 64physhy] #737001
07/01/10 12:17 AM
07/01/10 12:17 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 154
Escondido, CA
64physhy Offline OP
member
64physhy  Offline OP
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Posts: 154
Escondido, CA
I tried out the other carb, and it works now. Engine still kicked backwards once before I got it started, though. Double checked the timing when I got it running, and it's at 30*. Didn't kick back as bad as before. After it did it once, I got the car started, warmed it up for about a minute or so at around 1600 RPM, then let it go down to 1000 and it idled. Now I need to figure out what the problem is with the other carb.

Re: Need Help! Engine ran Backwards [Re: dfsmopars] #737002
07/01/10 09:07 PM
07/01/10 09:07 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline
Striving for excellence
Kern Dog  Offline
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Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
The motorcyxle story is friggin funny! Man, the look of surprise you must have had!
That was NOT useless information. It made ME laugh. Thank you!







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