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Need Help! Engine ran Backwards

Posted By: 64physhy

Need Help! Engine ran Backwards - 06/30/10 01:43 AM

I've been trying to get my carb running right on my 414 stroker for a while now. I haven't been able to get it to idle below about 2000 RPM without dying. I took it apart and blew it out, and found a couple chunks of plastic in it, so thought I found the problem. When I started it, it started right up, but still wouldn't idle below 2000 RPM, although I never got it warmed up enough to know for sure. I let it die after a couple minutes, and when I tried to start it again, the engine turned backwards for about 3 seconds...several revolutions.
The timing is locked out at 30* with a 20* start retard on an MSD E-Curve.
Carb is a Proform 750.
Compression is 10:1 with Iron Ram heads

Could I have skipped the timing chain when this happened? What all do I need to check??
Posted By: stumpy

Re: Need Help! Engine ran Backwards - 06/30/10 01:58 AM

Are you running a plastic coated timing gear. If you are then I would replace it with a metal set. Also pull your dirtibutor and check the gear on it.
Posted By: ahy

Re: Need Help! Engine ran Backwards - 06/30/10 02:14 AM

The oil pump doesn't pump oil running backwards but 3 seconds wouldn't likley be enough to hurt bearings ect.
Posted By: 64physhy

Re: Need Help! Engine ran Backwards - 06/30/10 02:24 AM

Timing gear is not plastic coated. I do have a chain tensioner, so not sure if that would matter for anything.
Posted By: thecarfarmer

Re: Need Help! Engine ran Backwards - 06/30/10 03:07 AM

Quote:

I've been trying to get my carb running right on my 414 stroker for a while now. I haven't been able to get it to idle below about 2000 RPM without dying. I took it apart and blew it out, and found a couple chunks of plastic in it, so thought I found the problem. When I started it, it started right up, but still wouldn't idle below 2000 RPM, although I never got it warmed up enough to know for sure. I let it die after a couple minutes, and when I tried to start it again, the engine turned backwards for about 3 seconds...several revolutions.
The timing is locked out at 30* with a 20* start retard on an MSD E-Curve.
Carb is a Proform 750.
Compression is 10:1 with Iron Ram heads

Could I have skipped the timing chain when this happened? What all do I need to check??




There are two things you're describing; they may both be related... or not.

Has this engine ever run right, or is this something that was just put together, and you can't get it to idle?

First thing I'd try is to rule out the carb. Either put a known good piece on the engine, and get running, or put the carb on a known good engine and see if it works.

Obviously, once the carb is on an engine that you know runs well, you can get some approximate idle mixture and speed set. If the engine in question hasn't run before, it's a good idea to have the carb pretty well proven.

So, if the carburetor is the culprit...

You found the plastic in the carb, right? Where did you find it? Float bowls? Jammed into metering orifices?

The real question there is: why is the plastic there? What has broken, and what has been plugged up with plastic shrapnel.

It might be something from manufacturing. Or something from a needle/seat, or c) none of the above.

The 'won't idle below 2K' thing sounds like it could be one of two problems: a big air leak, or idle circuits not working. I'm going to jump out on a limb and guess the Proform carb doesn't have the old-style power valve circuitry that can blow out with a backfire...

of course, if the engine spews black smoke, that might be a place to check.

If the idle circuits don't work, then you'll need to speed the engine up to pull out of the venturi boosters and get on the main circuit. This may be the cause of the problem. The cure is to disassemble the carb, taking notes (and pics if possible); note every gasket (is one torn/damaged/blocking?). Then sit down with a good book (like the "Holley" book sold at the speed shop, not a romance novel or anything) and chase all the passages with spray carb cleaner.

Check that the idle air bleeds are free, and blow cleaner thru every path in the idle circuit.

Reassemble the carb, and check that the gaskets you're putting in aren't going to leave anything unsealed or block any passages. Take more carb spray, and do one last set of checks for good luck that you still have connection from the idle mix holes to the circuits in the metering block, and the bleeds. Then put the bowls back on. Either pray or perform voodoo as your beliefs dictate.

If you put a carb on the engine that's proven to be good, and you still have the high idle speed, I'd look for a vacuum leak. A pretty big one.

PCV? Brake booster line? All those vacuum plugs tight? Vacuum advance?

I always check hoses first; they're easy enough to pinch w/ pliers and see what happens. Faster than taking 'em off to see if the gizmo at the other end is leaking.

Then start squirting carb spray at places where you can have leaks. Carb base, plenum, manifold runners. If you get a response from spraying somewhere (other than at the top of the carb), bingo!

Now,as far as running backwards... beats me. If the thing didn't run real nice with a good carb on it, I'd try a compression test, and I'd TDC the engine, and check that the intake valve closing is where it is supposed to be. A skipped tooth on a timing chain will show up as being out a bunch (I don't have one here to count, but I'd expect 15-20 degrees per tooth; something like that... someone here wlil probably know).

Hope this helps.

-Bill
Posted By: Evil Monkey

Re: Need Help! Engine ran Backwards - 06/30/10 05:16 AM

Quote:

chase all the passages with spray carb cleaner.





Remember to wear eye protection when doing this. When spraying the passages, the carb cleaner can go all kinds of directions, and the direction it likes to go the most is straight towards your eyes. It really stings... DAMHIK
Posted By: 64physhy

Re: Need Help! Engine ran Backwards - 06/30/10 05:27 AM

Quote:



Has this engine ever run right, or is this something that was just put together, and you can't get it to idle?
It was recently put together, but ran good for break-in, and a couple short drives, then started acting up.

First thing I'd try is to rule out the carb. Either put a known good piece on the engine, and get running, or put the carb on a known good engine and see if it works.
Good Idea, but I don't have another engine that a 750 wouldn't choke out. I have another carb, but not sure if it's good, and it's a 650.

Obviously, once the carb is on an engine that you know runs well, you can get some approximate idle mixture and speed set. If the engine in question hasn't run before, it's a good idea to have the carb pretty well proven.

So, if the carburetor is the culprit...

You found the plastic in the carb, right? Where did you find it? Float bowls? Jammed into metering orifices?
In the float bowls. didn't see any in the metering orifices with a flashlight

The real question there is: why is the plastic there? What has broken, and what has been plugged up with plastic shrapnel.
probably from those crappy clear float bowl windows that have removed

It might be something from manufacturing. Or something from a needle/seat, or c) none of the above.

The 'won't idle below 2K' thing sounds like it could be one of two problems: a big air leak, or idle circuits not working. I'm going to jump out on a limb and guess the Proform carb doesn't have the old-style power valve circuitry that can blow out with a backfire...
Had found a leak around the base and replaced the gaskets. Come to think of it, I didn't check again after I replaced them, but I checked the carb base and it wasn't warped.

of course, if the engine spews black smoke, that might be a place to check.
no black smoke

If the idle circuits don't work, then you'll need to speed the engine up to pull out of the venturi boosters and get on the main circuit. This may be the cause of the problem. The cure is to disassemble the carb, taking notes (and pics if possible); note every gasket (is one torn/damaged/blocking?). Then sit down with a good book (like the "Holley" book sold at the speed shop, not a romance novel or anything) and chase all the passages with spray carb cleaner.

Check that the idle air bleeds are free, and blow cleaner thru every path in the idle circuit.

Reassemble the carb, and check that the gaskets you're putting in aren't going to leave anything unsealed or block any passages. Take more carb spray, and do one last set of checks for good luck that you still have connection from the idle mix holes to the circuits in the metering block, and the bleeds. Then put the bowls back on. Either pray or perform voodoo as your beliefs dictate.
Most of the above is way over my head

If you put a carb on the engine that's proven to be good, and you still have the high idle speed, I'd look for a vacuum leak. A pretty big one.

PCV? Brake booster line? All those vacuum plugs tight? Vacuum advance?
nothing vacuum operated, all 3 ports capped on the carb.

I always check hoses first; they're easy enough to pinch w/ pliers and see what happens. Faster than taking 'em off to see if the gizmo at the other end is leaking.

Then start squirting carb spray at places where you can have leaks. Carb base, plenum, manifold runners. If you get a response from spraying somewhere (other than at the top of the carb), bingo!

Now,as far as running backwards... beats me. If the thing didn't run real nice with a good carb on it, I'd try a compression test, and I'd TDC the engine, and check that the intake valve closing is where it is supposed to be. A skipped tooth on a timing chain will show up as being out a bunch (I don't have one here to count, but I'd expect 15-20 degrees per tooth; something like that... someone here wlil probably know).

Hope this helps.

-Bill




Thanks for all the good info.

The other carb I have is a C&S built Holley 650 that's been sitting for a while. I took the bowls off today and it looked good, but smelled like stale gas. I might try it, but it's kind of a shot in the dark.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Need Help! Engine ran Backwards - 06/30/10 05:41 AM

When I was a teenager in high school, my sisters boyfriend said that he was trying to push start a 4 speed car. He was rolling it down a hill and jumped in, shoved it ito gear then popped the clutch. The problem WAS that it was in REVERSE! He said that it actually ran, but very rough. I still think that he was lying, but I have never personally tested this out.
Posted By: Commando1

Re: Need Help! Engine ran Backwards - 06/30/10 11:03 AM

I've accidently run diesels backwards. Never heard of a gas doing that. Hey, now you have a marine engine.
Posted By: 440challenger

Re: Need Help! Engine ran Backwards - 06/30/10 11:44 AM

Quote:

When I was a teenager in high school, my sisters boyfriend said that he was trying to push start a 4 speed car. He was rolling it down a hill and jumped in, shoved it ito gear then popped the clutch. The problem WAS that it was in REVERSE! He said that it actually ran, but very rough. I still think that he was lying, but I have never personally tested this out.




I bump start straight six fords all the time in R. It works
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Need Help! Engine ran Backwards - 07/01/10 01:14 AM

Imagine 4 reverse speeds and one forward!
Posted By: dfsmopars

Re: Need Help! Engine ran Backwards - 07/01/10 02:40 AM

I had a two stroke motorcycle that ran backwards. When the rpm would drop to an idle you could hear it start to die, recover and then idle back up. Then if you wern't thinking you'd pop the clutch and over the handle bars you'd go. I know two stroke is a different animal than four stroke. Maybe this is just useless information.
Posted By: 64physhy

Re: Need Help! Engine ran Backwards - 07/01/10 04:17 AM

I tried out the other carb, and it works now. Engine still kicked backwards once before I got it started, though. Double checked the timing when I got it running, and it's at 30*. Didn't kick back as bad as before. After it did it once, I got the car started, warmed it up for about a minute or so at around 1600 RPM, then let it go down to 1000 and it idled. Now I need to figure out what the problem is with the other carb.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Need Help! Engine ran Backwards - 07/02/10 01:07 AM

The motorcyxle story is friggin funny! Man, the look of surprise you must have had!
That was NOT useless information. It made ME laugh. Thank you!
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