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440 Build advice #701603 05/18/10 08:11 PM 05/18/10 08:11 PM
Joined: Dec 2009 Posts: 43 Hartville OH 3 340minihemi OP member
340minihemi OP member 3 Joined: Dec 2009 Posts: 43 Hartville OH	I am building a 440 for my brothers '67R/T. He wants a good running street car that can be driven distances,doesnt require alot of tinkering and can still handle the late model Mustangs, will probably never see strip action. Going to keep stock crank/rods,looking at KB hyper pistons,torn between the 9.5 and 10.0 C.R. I have a set of template ported 452's. I like the looks of the Lunati 268 camshaft, some sort of alum dual plane intake{stock hood} he has some magnum exhaust manifolds, a 750vac Holley, thinking about a 2400-2600 stall for the 727,has 3.23 gears. How does it sound?

Post deleted by Defbob [Re: 340minihemi] #701604 05/18/10 08:57 PM 05/18/10 08:57 PM
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Re: 440 Build advice #701605 05/18/10 09:45 PM 05/18/10 09:45 PM
Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 5,314 Carstairs, Alberta, Canada dave571 master
dave571 master Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 5,314 Carstairs, Alberta, Canada	Quote: 10.1 comp might be to much with iron heads, unless you don't mind running GOOD gas all the time. I will agree with this, especially given the fairly mild camshaft that has been suggested. A little more cam, and it'll run on pump gas with iron heads.

Re: 440 Build advice [Re: dave571] #701606 05/18/10 10:12 PM 05/18/10 10:12 PM
Joined: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,226 Cookeville Chilort Will Work For Mopars
Chilort Will Work For Mopars Joined: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,226 Cookeville	Eddy heads, performer RPM intake (if it'll fit), Lunati 60303 cam, either compression ratio, go play with anything you want all day long. But then again, I'm kind of partial to that combo.

Re: 440 Build advice #701607 05/18/10 10:40 PM 05/18/10 10:40 PM
Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 9,336 South-Central (Sebring), FL Commando1 master
Commando1 master Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 9,336 South-Central (Sebring), FL	Quote: 10.1 comp might be to much with iron heads, unless you don't mind running GOOD gas all the time. Nonsense. Whatever CR you have with aluminum heads you can have with iron heads. I wish someone would put this myth to bed. Manufactuers were running up to 12:1 in the sixties. With iron heads.

Re: 440 Build advice [Re: Commando1] #701608 05/18/10 10:51 PM 05/18/10 10:51 PM
Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 902 Seattle, WA R rss super stock
rss super stock R Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 902 Seattle, WA	Quote: Manufactuers were running up to 12:1 in the sixties. With iron heads. and with sixties gas

Re: 440 Build advice [Re: 340minihemi] #701609 05/19/10 02:14 AM 05/19/10 02:14 AM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska R RapidRobert Circle Track
RapidRobert Circle Track R Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska	get quench. It'll be a pita w open chambers as the OC head recesses need to be machined to equalize the slope/depth of them then machine the KB quench pads and several mockups (why I like floating pins) and carefull measuring to get .035-040" on each cyl but this will give you a spot on foundation (long block) that'll let you run the most static CR and in the end the highest DCR that will function wo pinging w your choice of octane as slowing your timing to compromise this is a band aid that severely hurts power live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth

Re: 440 Build advice [Re: dave571] #701610 05/19/10 09:24 AM 05/19/10 09:24 AM
Joined: Mar 2008 Posts: 5,746 Ontario, Canada Dodgem master
Dodgem master Joined: Mar 2008 Posts: 5,746 Ontario, Canada	Quote: Quote: 10.1 comp might be to much with iron heads, unless you don't mind running GOOD gas all the time. I will agree with this, especially given the fairly mild camshaft that has been suggested. A little more cam, and it'll run on pump gas with iron heads.

Re: 440 Build advice [Re: rss] #701611 05/19/10 11:44 AM 05/19/10 11:44 AM
Joined: Mar 2008 Posts: 5,746 Ontario, Canada Dodgem master
Dodgem master Joined: Mar 2008 Posts: 5,746 Ontario, Canada	Quote: Quote: Manufactuers were running up to 12:1 in the sixties. With iron heads. and with sixties gas some people should not post answers when they are wrong and or don't know!

Re: 440 Build advice [Re: Dodgem] #701612 05/19/10 12:19 PM 05/19/10 12:19 PM
Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 9,336 South-Central (Sebring), FL Commando1 master
Commando1 master Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 9,336 South-Central (Sebring), FL	Quote: some people should not post answers when they are wrong and or don't know! Whether gas was better or not has nothing to do with what we are talking about. The comment was made: Quote: 10.1 comp might be to much with iron heads... I said that iron heads were as high as 12:1 in the 60's. WTF does that have to do with the quality of gasoline? YOU don't know what you are talking about. But don't take it from me. Here: Iron vs aluminum heads Quote: guess what we learned? ...zero difference anywhere in the power or detonation characteristics of the iron versus aluminum heads some people should not post at all when they are wrong and or don't know!

Re: 440 Build advice [Re: Commando1] #701613 05/19/10 02:26 PM 05/19/10 02:26 PM
Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 8,716 Baltimore/Denver 64Post master
64Post master Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 8,716 Baltimore/Denver	Quote: Quote: some people should not post answers when they are wrong and or don't know! Whether gas was better or not has nothing to do with what we are talking about. The comment was made: Quote: 10.1 comp might be to much with iron heads... I said that iron heads were as high as 12:1 in the 60's. WTF does that have to do with the quality of gasoline? YOU don't know what you are talking about. But don't take it from me. Here: Iron vs aluminum heads Quote: guess what we learned? ...zero difference anywhere in the power or detonation characteristics of the iron versus aluminum heads some people should not post at all when they are wrong and or don't know! Dude, quit while you're behind. Gas was 106+ octane in the 60's. Now it's 93/94 at best. No one is going to get away with 12:1 with iron heads on a street motor.

Re: 440 Build advice [Re: Commando1] #701614 05/19/10 02:26 PM 05/19/10 02:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 24,562 Brookeville, Md Mr.Yuck Not enough dumb comments...yet
Mr.Yuck Not enough dumb comments...yet Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 24,562 Brookeville, Md	you can run a 10:1, iron head on pump gas w/ no problems. Last 440 was around 10.5:1 iron heads ran fine on 93. would it run better w/ 110? sure but one can always bump the timing up at the track w/ good gas. [IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/pui5j.jpg[/IMG] Coming soon!!!!

Re: 440 Build advice [Re: Commando1] #701615 05/19/10 02:28 PM 05/19/10 02:28 PM
Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 902 Seattle, WA R rss super stock
rss super stock R Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 902 Seattle, WA	Quote: But don't take it from me. Here: Iron vs aluminum heads Not really relevant since they used a much more aggresive cam that would help to bleed off some cyclinder pressure as was suggested by previous posters. Check out KB pistons site. They have tech article with recommended compression ratios and sure seem to believe there is a difference between cast iron and aluminum heads. I'd believe KB before I'd believe some mag article done using a long duration cam.

Re: 440 Build advice [Re: Mr.Yuck] #701616 05/19/10 02:39 PM 05/19/10 02:39 PM
Joined: May 2010 Posts: 29 Tennessee B Bunk member
Bunk member B Joined: May 2010 Posts: 29 Tennessee	I currently run a 440 with 10.15 to 1 compression with 915 iron heads in my street car with no problems at all on 92 octane fuel. The piston's however are forged Weisco's and not the half and half KB's. Timing stays at 37 degrees and I run the MP 284 cam. I have ran 110 on the strip with no performance gain at all. As someone else stated, it depends on the cam and how much compression will be bled off. I have to believe that anything under 250 duration at .050 is gonna bleed enough compression to allow you to get away with up to 10.50 to 1 on 92 octane. Also, the timing shouldn't be dialed in too low either. This is based on what I know and have implemented.

Re: 440 Build advice #701617 05/19/10 02:43 PM 05/19/10 02:43 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 21,072 Niles , Ohio T therocks oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
therocks oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah. T Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 21,072 Niles , Ohio	I was running 15.5 in my 440 with Iron heads.It ran on 93 octane.I really couldnt hammer it on the street as it would have clatter but for just driving it was OK.I do have a big cam at .588.With the aluminum heads its much better.I do have to agree anout 10 to 1 is about all you want in a mild build.My kids 62 300 413 runs about that and it never clatters.Rocky Chrysler Firepower

Re: 440 Build advice [Re: 64Post] #701618 05/19/10 03:52 PM 05/19/10 03:52 PM
Joined: Apr 2008 Posts: 90 NL F Frederick member
Frederick member F Joined: Apr 2008 Posts: 90 NL	That carcraft test doesn't prove anything. They are to far away from the detonation limit with 260@0.050 and only 10.88:1 compression. They are even admitting it on the second page: "We're not going to be quite so cocky about debunking the claim that you can run higher compression on pump gas with aluminum than with iron. Our test does not definitively prove that. It may not have even tested it." 383B, 9.8:1, Lunati 60302(220/226@0.050 262/268Dur, 0.475"/0.494", Stealth heads, Performer manifold, QF SS-750-AN carb, 3.31Diff, A833 4-speed manual.

Re: 440 Build advice [Re: Frederick] #701619 05/19/10 04:42 PM 05/19/10 04:42 PM
Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 9,336 South-Central (Sebring), FL Commando1 master
Commando1 master Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 9,336 South-Central (Sebring), FL	You all can naysay until the cows come home but that won't change the most important fact: For identical CR's, you do not have an advantage with aluminum heads. They'll both knock at exactly the same point.

Re: 440 Build advice [Re: Commando1] #701620 05/19/10 05:45 PM 05/19/10 05:45 PM
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	KB237's usually make nearer 9.6--9.7 with a trued up 452 head deal--get the distributor curve just right and premium pump is easy without the quench saga--IF you do a perfect quench deal it gives you an edge but normal dudes in the back yard can run fast and without trouble by getting the curve right ( many ways and folks to do this like FBO) ---I agree that NO way with 10% ( and SOON to be 15% alky ) that you can run any more CR than this and be safe--quench will help but the gas we buy WILL be 15% sooner than you wear that thing out so get ready and plan ahead.......Turning the timing back to keep a higher CR from killing itself knocking--just guts it---no way around it...........

Re: 440 Build advice [Re: Commando1] #701621 05/19/10 07:55 PM 05/19/10 07:55 PM
Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 4,319 Puyallup, WA S StealthWedge67 master
StealthWedge67 master S Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 4,319 Puyallup, WA	"Dude, Quit while you're behind!"... Thats some funny sh!t, I'm gonna remember that. Quote: You all can naysay until the cows come home but that won't change the most important fact: For identical CR's, you do not have an advantage with aluminum heads. They'll both knock at exactly the same point. Aluminum dissipates heat faster and more effectively than iron. So the theory that it will allow the charge in the cylinder to resist detonation slightly longer than the same charge with an iron head would figure to be true. Not to mention the fact that millions of people have experienced it to be true. Now, you're not going to get away with 12:1 compression on pump gas no matter what heads you run. LemonWedge - Street heavy / Strip ready - 11.07 @ 120

Re: 440 Build advice [Re: StealthWedge67] #701622 05/19/10 08:48 PM 05/19/10 08:48 PM
Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 9,336 South-Central (Sebring), FL Commando1 master
Commando1 master Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 9,336 South-Central (Sebring), FL	Quote: Now, you're not going to get away with 12:1 compression on pump gas no matter what heads you run. You can't read. I never said that you could run 12:1 on today's gas. Go back and look. I keep saying that using aluminum heads is NOT an advantage over iron heads on today's lower octane gas, whether they are BOTH 8:1, 10:1, or 12:1. You just have a woody over aluminum heads without knowing why.

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