440 Build advice

Posted By: 340minihemi

440 Build advice - 05/19/10 12:11 AM

I am building a 440 for my brothers '67R/T. He wants a good running street car that can be driven distances,doesnt require alot of tinkering and can still handle the late model Mustangs, will probably never see strip action. Going to keep stock crank/rods,looking at KB hyper pistons,torn between the 9.5 and 10.0 C.R. I have a set of template ported 452's. I like the looks of the Lunati 268 camshaft, some sort of alum dual plane intake{stock hood} he has some magnum exhaust manifolds, a 750vac Holley, thinking about a 2400-2600 stall for the 727,has 3.23 gears. How does it sound?

Posted By: Anonymous

Post deleted by Defbob - 05/19/10 12:57 AM

Posted By: dave571

Re: 440 Build advice - 05/19/10 01:45 AM

Quote:

10.1 comp might be to much with iron heads, unless you don't mind running GOOD gas all the time.

I will agree with this, especially given the fairly mild camshaft that has been suggested.

A little more cam, and it'll run on pump gas with iron heads.

Posted By: Chilort

Re: 440 Build advice - 05/19/10 02:12 AM

Eddy heads, performer RPM intake (if it'll fit), Lunati 60303 cam, either compression ratio, go play with anything you want all day long. But then again, I'm kind of partial to that combo.

Posted By: Commando1

Re: 440 Build advice - 05/19/10 02:40 AM

Quote:

10.1 comp might be to much with iron heads, unless you don't mind running GOOD gas all the time.

Nonsense. Whatever CR you have with aluminum heads you can have with iron heads. I wish someone would put this myth to bed. Manufactuers were running up to 12:1 in the sixties. With iron heads.

Posted By: rss

Re: 440 Build advice - 05/19/10 02:51 AM

Quote:

Manufactuers were running up to 12:1 in the sixties. With iron heads.

and with sixties gas

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: 440 Build advice - 05/19/10 06:14 AM

get quench. It'll be a pita w open chambers as the OC head recesses need to be machined to equalize the slope/depth of them then machine the KB quench pads and several mockups (why I like floating pins) and carefull measuring to get .035-040" on each cyl but this will give you a spot on foundation (long block) that'll let you run the most static CR and in the end the highest DCR that will function wo pinging w your choice of octane as slowing your timing to compromise this is a band aid that severely hurts power

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: 440 Build advice - 05/19/10 01:24 PM

Quote:

Quote:

10.1 comp might be to much with iron heads, unless you don't mind running GOOD gas all the time.

I will agree with this, especially given the fairly mild camshaft that has been suggested.

A little more cam, and it'll run on pump gas with iron heads.

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: 440 Build advice - 05/19/10 03:44 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Manufactuers were running up to 12:1 in the sixties. With iron heads.

and with sixties gas

some people should not post answers when they are wrong and or don't know!

Posted By: Commando1

Re: 440 Build advice - 05/19/10 04:19 PM

Quote:

some people should not post answers when they are wrong and or don't know!

Whether gas was better or not has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

The comment was made:

Quote:

10.1 comp might be to much with iron heads...

I said that iron heads were as high as 12:1 in the 60's.

W*T*F does that have to do with the quality of gasoline?

YOU don't know what you are talking about.

But don't take it from me. Here:
Iron vs aluminum heads

Quote:

guess what we learned? ...zero difference anywhere in the power or detonation characteristics of the iron versus aluminum heads

some people should not post at all when they are wrong and or don't know!

Posted By: 64Post

Re: 440 Build advice - 05/19/10 06:26 PM

Quote:

Quote:

some people should not post answers when they are wrong and or don't know!

Whether gas was better or not has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

The comment was made:
Quote:

10.1 comp might be to much with iron heads...

I said that iron heads were as high as 12:1 in the 60's.

W*T*F does that have to do with the quality of gasoline?

YOU don't know what you are talking about.

But don't take it from me. Here:
Iron vs aluminum heads

Quote:

guess what we learned? ...zero difference anywhere in the power or detonation characteristics of the iron versus aluminum heads

some people should not post at all when they are wrong and or don't know!

Dude, quit while you're behind.

Gas was 106+ octane in the 60's. Now it's 93/94 at best.

No one is going to get away with 12:1 with iron heads on a street motor.

Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: 440 Build advice - 05/19/10 06:26 PM

you can run a 10:1, iron head on pump gas w/ no problems. Last 440 was around 10.5:1 iron heads ran fine on 93. would it run better w/ 110? sure but one can always bump the timing up at the track w/ good gas.

Posted By: rss

Re: 440 Build advice - 05/19/10 06:28 PM

Quote:

But don't take it from me. Here:
Iron vs aluminum heads

Not really relevant since they used a much more aggresive cam that would help to bleed off some cyclinder pressure as was suggested by previous posters.

Check out KB pistons site. They have tech article with recommended compression ratios and sure seem to believe there is a difference between cast iron and aluminum heads. I'd believe KB before I'd believe some mag article done using a long duration cam.

Posted By: Bunk

Re: 440 Build advice - 05/19/10 06:39 PM

I currently run a 440 with 10.15 to 1 compression with 915 iron heads in my street car with no problems at all on 92 octane fuel. The piston's however are forged Weisco's and not the half and half KB's. Timing stays at 37 degrees and I run the MP 284 cam. I have ran 110 on the strip with no performance gain at all. As someone else stated, it depends on the cam and how much compression will be bled off. I have to believe that anything under 250 duration at .050 is gonna bleed enough compression to allow you to get away with up to 10.50 to 1 on 92 octane. Also, the timing shouldn't be dialed in too low either. This is based on what I know and have implemented.

Posted By: therocks

Re: 440 Build advice - 05/19/10 06:43 PM

I was running 15.5 in my 440 with Iron heads.It ran on 93 octane.I really couldnt hammer it on the street as it would have clatter but for just driving it was OK.I do have a big cam at .588.With the aluminum heads its much better.I do have to agree anout 10 to 1 is about all you want in a mild build.My kids 62 300 413 runs about that and it never clatters.Rocky

Posted By: Frederick

Re: 440 Build advice - 05/19/10 07:52 PM

That carcraft test doesn't prove anything.
They are to far away from the detonation limit with 260@0.050 and only 10.88:1 compression.

They are even admitting it on the second page:
"We're not going to be quite so cocky about debunking the claim that you can run higher compression on pump gas with aluminum than with iron. Our test does not definitively prove that. It may not have even tested it."

Posted By: Commando1

Re: 440 Build advice - 05/19/10 08:42 PM

You all can naysay until the cows come home but that won't change the most important fact:

For identical CR's, you do not have an advantage with aluminum heads. They'll both knock at exactly the same point.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: 440 Build advice - 05/19/10 09:45 PM

KB237's usually make nearer 9.6--9.7 with a trued up 452 head deal--get the distributor curve just right and premium pump is easy without the quench saga--IF you do a perfect quench deal it gives you an edge but normal dudes in the back yard can run fast and without trouble by getting the curve right ( many ways and folks to do this like FBO) ---I agree that NO way with 10% ( and SOON to be 15% alky ) that you can run any more CR than this and be safe--quench will help but the gas we buy WILL be 15% sooner than you wear that thing out so get ready and plan ahead.......Turning the timing back to keep a higher CR from killing itself knocking--just guts it---no way around it...........

Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: 440 Build advice - 05/19/10 11:55 PM

"Dude, Quit while you're behind!"... Thats some funny sh!t, I'm gonna remember that.

Quote:

You all can naysay until the cows come home but that won't change the most important fact:

For identical CR's, you do not have an advantage with aluminum heads. They'll both knock at exactly the same point.

Aluminum dissipates heat faster and more effectively than iron. So the theory that it will allow the charge in the cylinder to resist detonation slightly longer than the same charge with an iron head would figure to be true. Not to mention the fact that millions of people have experienced it to be true.

Now, you're not going to get away with 12:1 compression on pump gas no matter what heads you run.

Posted By: Commando1

Re: 440 Build advice - 05/20/10 12:48 AM

Quote:

Now, you're not going to get away with 12:1 compression on pump gas no matter what heads you run.

You can't read. I never said that you could run 12:1 on today's gas. Go back and look. I keep saying that using aluminum heads is NOT an advantage over iron heads on today's lower octane gas, whether they are BOTH 8:1, 10:1, or 12:1.
You just have a woody over aluminum heads without knowing why.

Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: 440 Build advice - 05/20/10 05:06 AM

Quote:

I keep saying that using aluminum heads is NOT an advantage over iron heads on today's lower octane gas, whether they are BOTH 8:1, 10:1, or 12:1.

yes, you keep saying it, and I'll again say you're wrong.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one

Posted By: rss

Re: 440 Build advice - 05/20/10 05:51 AM

Quote:

I keep saying that using aluminum heads is NOT an advantage over iron heads on today's lower octane gas, whether they are BOTH 8:1, 10:1, or 12:1.

Go and try your hand at welding aluminum and then tell me that it doesn't have VERY different heat transfer qualities.

Detonation is caused by excessive heat in the combustion chamber. Because aluminum transfers heat away from the combustion chamber faster than cast iron, you are less likely to create the proper conditions to induce detonation.

Can you run a 10:1 motor with cast iron or aluminum, sure probably. Depends on lots of variables like cam, fuel octane and tuning. But all other things being equal, an iron headed motor is more likely to ping than an aluminum headed one.

Posted By: 340minihemi

Re: 440 Build advice - 05/20/10 10:29 AM

Thanks for responces, anybody run a 268 VooDoo in a mild 440?

Posted By: Dodgem

Re: 440 Build advice - 05/20/10 11:49 AM

Quote:

Quote:

some people should not post answers when they are wrong and or don't know!

Whether gas was better or not has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

The comment was made:
Quote:

10.1 comp might be to much with iron heads...

I said that iron heads were as high as 12:1 in the 60's.

W*T*F does that have to do with the quality of gasoline?

YOU don't know what you are talking about.

But don't take it from me. Here:
Iron vs aluminum heads

Quote:

guess what we learned? ...zero difference anywhere in the power or detonation characteristics of the iron versus aluminum heads

some people should not post at all when they are wrong and or don't know!

You are definitely challenged mentally and I guess we should recognize that and take higher ground.
BUT the limk you supplied is for a 10.88 to 1 CHEBBY RACE engine with race heads that have specially designed chamers and all. The cam is 260/260 duration @ .050 which on a little engine like that would be like a 272 @ .050 duraion cam in a 440 race race race you get it.

They set out to prove that the power loss myth that aluminum heads make less power than iron with everything being equal. the heads are the same race heads one aluminum and one cast with what will be a rich mixture (resist detonation as it slows burn) and they admit they never loaded it till high RPM's like having a 5000 stall and you are past detonation zone anyways

Plus their quote
"We're not going to be quite so cocky about debunking the claim that you can run higher compression on pump gas with aluminum than with iron. Our test does not definitively prove that. It may not have even tested it. We can say with complete confidence that we did not encounter detonation at any point during our testing, even at 10.88:1 compression. That could be because the cam was pretty big, with an intake-closing point 79 degrees ABDC. With cranking compression in the 185s, it was not taxing the detonation point even with 91 octane. Also, the Engine Masters thing has pretty well demonstrated that a dyno seems to have far more detonation tolerance than do actual driving conditions in a car. So, ultimately, we don't think we pushed that limit enough to make a positive finding."

You need to go back to real world school

Posted By: Commando1

Re: 440 Build advice - 05/20/10 01:09 PM

I'll call this a draw.

And we agree to disagree.

That's why this hobby is in our blood.

Posted By: lewtot184

Re: 440 Build advice - 05/20/10 01:15 PM

i use kb184's in both my iron head open chamber 440's. i believe with shorter cams and pump gas this is the ideal piston.

Posted By: 2boltmain

Re: 440 Build advice - 05/20/10 02:23 PM

The original poster listed what he had to work with. On top of that he probably has tight budget. Why do members automatically start calling for aftermarket heads, forged pistons, roller cams ect. He has some template ported iron heads. If they are good to go and dont need $$$$$$ they are fine! (Great actually) I hope the original posters goal is realistic- what he is doing is like a stock muscle car kicked up slightly. Super drivable with no fussiness and runs 13s in the 1/4. An honest 375-400hp..ish?

Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: 440 Build advice - 05/20/10 03:26 PM

Quote:

W*T*F does that have to do with the quality of gasoline?

One last note.... it has EVERYTHING to do with the quality of gasoline. They could run any head they wanted back in the day with 12.8:1 or higher compression BECAUSE they had good high octane fuel right out of the local pump.

I believe you probably understand this, but are not communicating your thoughts effectively here?? If you're not aware of how octane effects a fuels ability to resist detonation, then maybe its not us that doesn't know what we're talking about??

Posted By: 64Post

Re: 440 Build advice - 05/20/10 03:59 PM

Quote:

The original poster listed what he had to work with. On top of that he probably has tight budget. Why do members automatically start calling for aftermarket heads, forged pistons, roller cams ect. He has some template ported iron heads. If they are good to go and dont need $$$$$$ they are fine! (Great actually) I hope the original posters goal is realistic- what he is doing is like a stock muscle car kicked up slightly. Super drivable with no fussiness and runs 13s in the 1/4. An honest 375-400hp..ish?

Bingo!

Plus, it's a heavy car with high gears and an auto trans. That's a combo ripe for detonation with the wrong parts and bad/no quench.

Posted By: Dusted_Ya

Re: 440 Build advice - 05/20/10 06:54 PM

I'm running the lunati 60301 voodoo cam kit simply because I wanted to stick with the stock valve train (except chromemoly tube pushrods) for reliability, longevity and no maintenance.