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505" B1 build with turbo. Need ideas/sanity check. #693646 05/10/10 01:32 AM 05/10/10 01:32 AM
Joined: Jul 2009 Posts: 492 IL E EchoSixMike OP mopar
EchoSixMike OP mopar E Joined: Jul 2009 Posts: 492 IL	Well at least making sure my insanity works well enough. Is intended to be a fun car, but will see strip time, probably some road course time as well. What I have: -the chassis 68 Charger 12 pt cage SFI'd for 8.50 coil over, rack and pinion front end ladder bar rear 9" Strange Ford with 4.30 gearset 6spd T56 with 0.50 top overdrive McCleod 1200hp "street" dual disk clutch -the engine 505" Megablock w/B1 originals GRP aluminum rods unknown pistons, probably whatever brand Koffel uses cast B1 intake -the tentative plan The engine will be going to a local machine shop, which has done good work for me in the past. They do a lot of large inch brand X stuff, as well as some turbo Cosworth stuff for the open wheel guys. I have a good comfort level with the shop. My chassis guy does excellent fab work on turbo stuff and has me sold on the benefits of an EFI turbo car over a large cam NA car for street use. What I plan on doing is pulling the aluminum rods and pistons out of the motor and replacing with steel rods, brand undetermined, probably Eagle or Crower. Looking at getting compression around 9.5 or 10:1, which seems to be about as good as it gets with 65cc combustion chambers in a 4.375 bore. I'm looking very hard at Big Stuff EFI; comments, experience? Also turbo and cam recommendations? I'm not set on any given power level, although on E85, intercooled, I'm expecting well north of 1000HP. Given this amount of power, my most pressing concern is not destroying anything expensive due to failure to plan. Fire away. S/F.....Ken M

Re: 505" B1 build with turbo. Need ideas/sanity check. [Re: EchoSixMike] #693647 05/10/10 11:43 AM 05/10/10 11:43 AM
Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 4,590 Indy J joshking440 Lunch is on me!
joshking440 Lunch is on me! J Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 4,590 Indy	Mike, Hey man, good luck with that build. It will be a monster....I have attached a few links of my build which is very similar to what you are doing, with the turbo and what not... Im no pro but I can possibly help with any unknowns you may have, IMHO i would run the aluminum rods... https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...part=1&vc=1 https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...rue#Post4959756

Re: 505" B1 build with turbo. Need ideas/sanity check. [Re: joshking440] #693648 05/10/10 11:50 AM 05/10/10 11:50 AM
Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 4,590 Indy J joshking440 Lunch is on me!
joshking440 Lunch is on me! J Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 4,590 Indy	Dont rule out the blow thru carb...they work really well and are a decent amount less expensive. I also notice your gears are pretty low. I am running 3:55's but they said I could have ran 3:23's and been ok!

Re: 505" B1 build with turbo. Need ideas/sanity check. [Re: joshking440] #693649 05/10/10 12:24 PM 05/10/10 12:24 PM
Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 4,590 Indy J joshking440 Lunch is on me!
joshking440 Lunch is on me! J Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 4,590 Indy	As far as turbo size is concearned, I would start with a 98mm and look up in size. I think you will be happy with that, as I know I am with my 106 and I have tons of room to grow. There is another memeber on here... 8valves is his screen name and hopefully he will chime in with some of his expertice as well...

Re: 505" B1 build with turbo. Need ideas/sanity check. [Re: joshking440] #693650 05/10/10 02:37 PM 05/10/10 02:37 PM
Joined: Jul 2009 Posts: 492 IL E EchoSixMike OP mopar
EchoSixMike OP mopar E Joined: Jul 2009 Posts: 492 IL	Thanks Josh. This car is going to see significant street time, which is why I'm trying to get away from the Al rods. I've seen all sorts of info, going both ways, regarding street use, I'd prefer to spend the money once and do it right the 1st time. Do you recall the dish specs for your pistons? That looks very similar to where I plan on going. I notice from your dyno sheets that the torque really starts coming in about 5000rpm, is that correct? Do you have your turbo specs for A/R, trim, etc? The 4.30 gearset was from the original build plan; I'm probably going to go to something in the 3.55-3.73 range, but my concern is the transmission durability. I want the tires to be the weak link in the driveline. The EFI is planned for low speed drivability/idle quality. I plan on running spray bar oiling of the lifters, if not pushrod oiling, so low rpm lifter durability should be a non-issue, I hope. S/F.....Ken M

Re: 505" B1 build with turbo. Need ideas/sanity check. [Re: EchoSixMike] #693651 05/10/10 03:15 PM 05/10/10 03:15 PM
Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 4,590 Indy J joshking440 Lunch is on me!
joshking440 Lunch is on me! J Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 4,590 Indy	I understand your apprehensive about the aluminum rods on the street, but my car is in the same catagory as yours, it will see 85% street time, and if you miss a tune it sure is nice to have a buffer... My turbo is a pt106 with a 1.5 a/r I would talk to Scott about the oiling, but fyi remember to get a grove cut in the #4 bearing journal of the cam. As far as the dyno numbers, my lack of e-85 knowledge put me back a bit. The motor was actually pretty lean at the time we made the pulls, but the plugs really read ok. We didnt start the dyno pull until 4300, so I think thats why the motor appears to really starts to come in. We were making 450 hp and 600 ft lbs at 3800 just kinda warming it up. The cam is a 715 lift and .248 at .050 with a 114 lsa The piston is a diamond, feel free to call them on specs its part number 56525 We got the compression down to about 9.4 or so. The carb for me was a money thing, I couldnt afford the difference, and I wasnt willing to bite of anymore that I couldnt already chew as far as a learning curve! But that carb sat and idled at 800 rpms straight out of the box with not a problem, and other than being a bit lean up top the thing was amazing, so with that said, if you look to tighten the budget, C&S build the most amazing e85 low thru carb on the planet, and it will support 2000hp if needed

Re: 505" B1 build with turbo. Need ideas/sanity check. [Re: joshking440] #693652 05/10/10 06:05 PM 05/10/10 06:05 PM
Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 846 Illinois moparmattkos mopar addict
moparmattkos mopar addict Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 846 Illinois	Im with Josh, I am also building a Turbo Big block 512 with big ez 325cc heads. I am also using a 106mm turbo with a 1.5 ar. I plan on going to e85 Blow through dominator with a methanol injecter when needed to chill the boost. 1000 hp will be a piece of cake for that build and will be very easy on parts. Good luck and post pics!!! I hope to start posting my mock up pics next week www.sikosracing.net Heads up Drag racing

Re: 505" B1 build with turbo. Need ideas/sanity check. [Re: EchoSixMike] #693653 05/13/10 09:36 PM 05/13/10 09:36 PM
Joined: Mar 2010 Posts: 7 Lloydminster, Canada B BombSquad member
BombSquad member B Joined: Mar 2010 Posts: 7 Lloydminster, Canada	The T-56 is my biggest concern, any of the really "built" T-56's lose the tall overdrive to hold together and go with something around a .75 6th gear. Plus they cost a fortune and still aren't as bulletproof as they'd have you believe. On a road course the RB stroker and big single turbo will be undriveable unless you have a electronic boost controller and set it to zero. At the strip the 4.30 out back and slicks and big turbo is going to be a handful. Spin, shift, hook up, spin, shift, hook up. I would also pick a good Watts link setup over a ladder bar for the rear suspension if you're mostly on the street and like good handling. Those are just my opinions. I just thought I'd post because I am going pro-touring with my 68 Charger and have been around high-hp street cars. I think the engine build is way too much make a "fun" car as you say. Breaking loose at 150mph is fun until you put it sideways at that speed. Traction will always be an issue and even drag radials will be melting on the street as soon as the stroker gets on the boost. My suggestion is to dial back the engine build and keep the turbo or keep the cubes and ditch the turbo. If you have 700-800rwhp it's going to be just ridiculous on the street or at a road course, let alone 1200-1500rwhp. If you still want 1000+ hp I'd go with a beefed up automatic instead and a Gear Vendors overdrive so at least you'll be getting your money's worth from all that power.

Re: 505" B1 build with turbo. Need ideas/sanity check. [Re: BombSquad] #693654 05/13/10 10:56 PM 05/13/10 10:56 PM
Joined: Mar 2010 Posts: 66 SRQ, FL 8valves member
8valves member Joined: Mar 2010 Posts: 66 SRQ, FL	What do you estimate the weight of the car will be when done? I would go for a gear in the 3.00-3.2X range if you stick to your gameplan for powerplant. The torque will pull the gear, even with the 6 speed. No worries there. The length of the gear will help the car have a bit more managable of a powerband. Still not easy, but manageable. If you plan on doing ANY roadcourse work (REAL roadcourse action, not drive around the course point it straight and shoot) then realistically the oversized turbo plan is the one for you. An electronic boost controller will do no good, as boost will only go as low as your wastegate springs allow generally. If you run anything more than a 4-5 psi gate spring, which you likely will, then the setup will build more torque at low rpm then you will plant regardless if there is any steering angle applied. That's where the larger, laggier turbo setup can be your friend. It may just be late enough that you can learn to drive with it as you come out of the corners, much like the old school turbo Porsche guys do. Otherwise, some EMS systems such as AEM or Motec (I'm sure others, just haven't dealt with them as much) will have a VSS dependent boost function. The low end torque will still be there, but that would allow you to pour the power on the straight hard as the speeds increase. Why E85? Just for fun, or is it readily accessible for you and cheap? There's nothing wrong with it in the least, it's great. Just make sure whomever is behind the keyboard has a good understanding of it, and knows how to calibrate your WB02 sensor for it, or adjust accordingly. Ask Josh about that. Aaron M

Re: 505" B1 build with turbo. Need ideas/sanity check. [Re: 8valves] #693655 05/14/10 04:54 AM 05/14/10 04:54 AM
Joined: Jul 2009 Posts: 492 IL E EchoSixMike OP mopar
EchoSixMike OP mopar E Joined: Jul 2009 Posts: 492 IL	I'm trying to get it under 3400 lbs, if possible. E85 is available at several local stations. It was $2.63/gal last time I drove past. Bombsquad, the car will have a panhard bar for the rear suspension. I'm beginning to think I may have to make it into a wing car S/F.....Ken M

Re: 505" B1 build with turbo. Need ideas/sanity check. [Re: EchoSixMike] #693656 05/14/10 08:44 AM 05/14/10 08:44 AM
Joined: May 2008 Posts: 1,238 North Cackilacky S sdaurity pro stock
sdaurity pro stock S Joined: May 2008 Posts: 1,238 North Cackilacky	The new XFI has a function for boost by MPH and you can set your curve to whatever you want and I have done this on lots of street cars and it works great. and you can set the traction control very aggressive for tire spin. Just a thought. One day I will have something cool here.

Re: 505" B1 build with turbo. Need ideas/sanity check. [Re: sdaurity] #693657 05/17/10 10:58 PM 05/17/10 10:58 PM
Joined: Mar 2010 Posts: 66 SRQ, FL 8valves member
8valves member Joined: Mar 2010 Posts: 66 SRQ, FL	Quote: The new XFI has a function for boost by MPH and you can set your curve to whatever you want and I have done this on lots of street cars and it works great. and you can set the traction control very aggressive for tire spin. Just a thought. Most EMS systems have a VSS based boost control. But I've found that people who strike the right balance between it and the TCS are few and far between. If it's on your drivewheels or off the tailshaft you better have perfect traction, otherwise your boost is raising as it sees the higher VSS signal due to the wheelspin. Thus, more wheelspin. Aaron M

Re: 505" B1 build with turbo. Need ideas/sanity check. [Re: 8valves] #693658 05/18/10 08:30 AM 05/18/10 08:30 AM
Joined: May 2008 Posts: 1,238 North Cackilacky S sdaurity pro stock
sdaurity pro stock S Joined: May 2008 Posts: 1,238 North Cackilacky	Quote: Quote: The new XFI has a function for boost by MPH and you can set your curve to whatever you want and I have done this on lots of street cars and it works great. and you can set the traction control very aggressive for tire spin. Just a thought. Most EMS systems have a VSS based boost control. But I've found that people who strike the right balance between it and the TCS are few and far between. If it's on your drivewheels or off the tailshaft you better have perfect traction, otherwise your boost is raising as it sees the higher VSS signal due to the wheelspin. Thus, more wheelspin. Yeah, I know how it works since I did suggest it. I was just adding another option for the guy. Good luck with your project . If you have any more questions seems the "EXPERTS" are already here I'll just keep out of it. One day I will have something cool here.

Re: 505" B1 build with turbo. Need ideas/sanity check. [Re: sdaurity] #693659 05/18/10 09:59 PM 05/18/10 09:59 PM
Joined: Mar 2010 Posts: 66 SRQ, FL 8valves member
8valves member Joined: Mar 2010 Posts: 66 SRQ, FL	Quote: Quote: Quote: The new XFI has a function for boost by MPH and you can set your curve to whatever you want and I have done this on lots of street cars and it works great. and you can set the traction control very aggressive for tire spin. Just a thought. Most EMS systems have a VSS based boost control. But I've found that people who strike the right balance between it and the TCS are few and far between. If it's on your drivewheels or off the tailshaft you better have perfect traction, otherwise your boost is raising as it sees the higher VSS signal due to the wheelspin. Thus, more wheelspin. Yeah, I know how it works since I did suggest it. I was just adding another option for the guy. Good luck with your project . If you have any more questions seems the "EXPERTS" are already here I'll just keep out of it. Don't take it to heart. The facts are what they are sadly. Most people sutrggle to get that particular combination right, hence why you see just about every racer working with the NLR AMS-1000 now. I don't see it as any better of a solution, and it too has it's own faults to be aware of when using it. The setup you described is certainly great, so long as some effort and care is put in to it. That was my point. Thanks for the ego boost though. Aaron M

Re: 505" B1 build with turbo. Need ideas/sanity check. [Re: 8valves] #693660 05/19/10 09:37 AM 05/19/10 09:37 AM
Joined: Jan 2006 Posts: 452 nc cold85 mopar
cold85 mopar Joined: Jan 2006 Posts: 452 nc	with that big of a motor why not o with a 106 turbo and I would do efi. I run a 88 on mine for 275 races and it has a large exhaust housing and spools fine and on the unlimited turbo races we put the 106 on it and it spools fine. And all of this is with a 358ci sbf

Re: 505" B1 build with turbo. Need ideas/sanity check. [Re: EchoSixMike] #693661 06/02/10 07:20 AM 06/02/10 07:20 AM
Joined: Sep 2005 Posts: 1,843 Maryland O OriginalRT top fuel
OriginalRT top fuel O Joined: Sep 2005 Posts: 1,843 Maryland	Why not consider twins? two small turbos will spool up alot quicker eliminating lag. I've played alot with turbo stuff and for what you're after, I think you'd be a lot happier w/ two smaller wheels vs one large one. If its in the budget, EFI is absolutely the way to go. I do this stuff for a living and would absolutely recomend it. While there are some really good blow through carbs out there, for the best in street manners and some semblence of fuel mileage, you just cant beat the EFI. I've played with alot of different systems. Personally I like the XFI. Its user freindly, they have good support and it does most everthing you'll need. but I use BS3 on all my drag radial stuff. It has alot more to offer in overall control in staged limiting. It can be a little quirky and has some idiocincricies that drive me crazy but it works second to none when you're trying to put 2000HP down via a drag radial on stock suspension. If the right recipe is followed, your HP goal should be exceeded easily. Good luck on this, I'll be keeping an eye on this thread for sure.

Re: 505" B1 build with turbo. Need ideas/sanity check. [Re: OriginalRT] #693662 06/05/10 08:16 AM 06/05/10 08:16 AM
Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,664 IN A ahy master
ahy master A Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,664 IN	A comment on rods... The Eagle is a good rod. I'm running a set on a NA BB around 550 HP. From what I've seen above 700-800 HP they get marginal. You will be way over that in HP so I'd consider either high end steel rods (Oliver?) or a fresh set of aluminum rods. For the road work are you considering Aero modifications? You'll probably have the HP to approach 200 MPH but it won't stay on the road without come considerable Aero help.

Re: 505" B1 build with turbo. Need ideas/sanity check. [Re: ahy] #693663 06/07/10 02:19 AM 06/07/10 02:19 AM
Joined: Jul 2009 Posts: 492 IL E EchoSixMike OP mopar
EchoSixMike OP mopar E Joined: Jul 2009 Posts: 492 IL	Well, considering that 600'ish HP had these guys doing near 200mph in the 60's, with a 1000hp I could have a school bus breaking 200. Been thinking a great deal about areodynamics. I might wind up building a pseudo bird: at the very least filling in the rear windshield like a Charger 500 and working to control under car airflow. S/F.....Ken M

Post deleted by Defbob [Re: joshking440] #693664 06/07/10 11:59 PM 06/07/10 11:59 PM
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Re: 505" B1 build with turbo. Need ideas/sanity check. #693665 06/08/10 02:24 AM 06/08/10 02:24 AM
Joined: Jul 2009 Posts: 492 IL E EchoSixMike OP mopar
EchoSixMike OP mopar E Joined: Jul 2009 Posts: 492 IL	It's a crossbolted Megablock. The T56 I've purchased is rated at 750ft lbs, which admittedly, is marginal. 8.5:1 is gonna have the slugs pretty far down in the hole. Doing the math on .060 deep and .045 gasket gets me around 9.5-9.7:1 with a 24cc dish piston. Is this OK?? S/F.....Ken M

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