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Over restoring vs.OEM restoration. Resale value.
#639624
03/14/10 12:27 PM
03/14/10 12:27 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,670
Lima, Peru
domingo
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EL Master
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OP
EL Master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,670
Lima, Peru
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Hi guys!
I have a few rare cars that I will be restoring in the following years.
Cars such as an original all numbers matching 69 HEMI Charger, a 4406 pack shaker Challenger 4 speed plum crazy, a Lemon twist 71 cuda 440-6 4 speed BB go wing car, a couple 71 cuda verts, a TA Challenger, etc.
I nam really torn in between going after
A) an OEM correct resto on all of them (with primered underbodies with overspray, bare metal surfaces, paint drips, etc), OEM steel exhaust systems, steel brake lines, etc.
B) an over restored look with paint as nice as the outside on the undeside as well, inner body panels, 3 stage paint all over. Detailed components,upgrade to stainless steel fuel and brake lines that are exact in appereance and function to the originals but polished stainless to keep them loking great forever, etc.
Problem is I do want to drive this cars some (I will care for them and only drive em occassionaly, but stillwant to enjoy them) and also I want them to keep looking nice, clean and fresh for as long as possible...something that cant be possible if shoting for an OEM resto where unpainted surfaces and primered undercarriages are bound to deteriorate QUICKLY if the cars arent treated like a full time trailer queen.
Problem is I might not keep them all ( I bought too many). I want to restore them all and sell some when the oportunity arises or after I decide which to keep and which not. But that may take a while and I do want to be able to recoup or make it as profitable as it could be when I sell...
So, do you think if I over restore the cars I might HURT their resale vale later on, or if they are done tastefully and extremely nice it should not matter much really even if they are not 100% OEM correct but made a little "better than new"?
Please not I would not use aftermarket parts, or cobble up stuff thats not supposed to be there from the factory. Im just talking about coating the whole body inn 2 stage urethane paint. Painting driveshafts and steering and suspension compoenents that are supposed to be bare metal, making the complete exhaust systems including the tips and mufflers in stainless steel resembling the originals in construction completely, stainless steel brake and fuel lines, etc.
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Re: Over restoring vs.OEM restoration. Resale value.
[Re: domingo]
#639625
03/14/10 01:08 PM
03/14/10 01:08 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,039
INDIANA
Paul Jacobs
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,039
INDIANA
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domingo, In looking at your list of cars, I would do OE resto's on at least some of them, since the values are quite high. What people don't realize, is that you CAN do an OE resto and drive them-just keep them out of the rain! No seriously, todays catalyzed primer is nothing like the old school stuff and holds up very well. We have some customers who drive their cars several times a month-even the OE ones. If the bare metal treated parts are treated CORRECTLY, they too will look new for a long time. Doing this right can sometimes be tricky. If you see small surface rust developing, some 0000 steel wool and cosmoline fixes it quickly. While I understand some people want no maintenence, I hate going to shows and seeing a very rare car sitting in some restoration booth with a bunch of painted or powdercoated suspension parts. If that is what an owner wants I'm all for it-but for an ultra rare car it seems like a shame. Whatever you do, ultimately you must be happy. You seem very knowledgable so I'm sure you'll make the right decision. 
Last edited by Paul Jacobs; 03/14/10 01:09 PM.
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Re: Over restoring vs.OEM restoration. Resale value.
[Re: domingo]
#639626
03/14/10 01:26 PM
03/14/10 01:26 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 5,123
Warrenton, VA
RoadRunnerJD
master
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master
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 5,123
Warrenton, VA
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It is a little unpredictable as to how much the total of a complete rotisserie restoration will end up costing. I'm working on one now that I would be lucky to break even on if I sold it when it's done. However, I am not fixing it to sell but restoring it to enjoy driving it often for a few years. It may still be break even at best if I ever sell it. You have all very desireable cars. If you are mostly just restoring your cars to ultimately sell, you could end up with more invested than you can get out of them, especially your time? You will probably be just as well off to restore only the car(s) that you might want to keep and do nothing to the cars that you want to sell. My personal preference on cars like you have is not over-restored. You can restore the parts to original and treat them so they do not rust and typically, you just need to be concerned with a good cleaning up after driving in bad weather. How you store them is also a factor. You can probably still make the same or a reasonable amount of profit without all the cost, time and trouble of doing so many restorations. Whomever you sell the cars to can then have the option of restoring their cars to their own liking. If you sell them for a profit without doing anything to them, at least you know you made a profit. It may not be that easy to ensure that you make a profit by the time you have all that time and money invested in them? 
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Re: Over restoring vs.OEM restoration. Resale value.
[Re: domingo]
#639628
03/14/10 08:57 PM
03/14/10 08:57 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
...an over restored look ......I do want to drive this cars some
Definition of Restore: return to its original or usable and functioning condition.
Definition of Modification: alteration - the act of making something different.
There is no such thing as "over-restoring" anything. If you make it different than original it is modified. For some reason many folks have a problem with the correct definition so they re-label it with verbiage they can live with. Cars that are changed or altered from original are simply "Modified".
On a personal note, every OE restoration I have been involved with WAS restored as a daily driver. Whether it is being used for show or is to be driven everyday, the restoration is the same. It is important to have a vehicle that functions like a new car AND appears like new. There is nothing worse than having a nice looking piece of junk! How many of you have seen cars that look nice but when the show is over it takes 30 seconds of cranking to start them, they billow black smoke out of the exhaust, you can't breath within ten feet of them and they can't idle unless they are continuously brake torqued? If a car is "restored" correctly it can be driven any time and anywhere. Isn't that what these cars were capable of when they were brand new?! ALL of these vehicles were manufactured as "Drivers"! Just because someone chooses to let them sit doesn't mean they can't or shouldn't function properly!!
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Re: Over restoring vs.OEM restoration. Resale value.
#639629
03/14/10 09:41 PM
03/14/10 09:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,670
Lima, Peru
domingo
OP
EL Master
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OP
EL Master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,670
Lima, Peru
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Quote:
Quote:
...an over restored look ......I do want to drive this cars some
Definition of Restore: return to its original or usable and functioning condition.
Definition of Modification: alteration - the act of making something different.
There is no such thing as "over-restoring" anything. If you make it different than original it is modified. For some reason many folks have a problem with the correct definition so they re-label it with verbiage they can live with. Cars that are changed or altered from original are simply "Modified".
On a personal note, every OE restoration I have been involved with WAS restored as a daily driver. Whether it is being used for show or is to be driven everyday, the restoration is the same. It is important to have a vehicle that functions like a new car AND appears like new. There is nothing worse than having a nice looking piece of junk! How many of you have seen cars that look nice but when the show is over it takes 30 seconds of cranking to start them, they billow black smoke out of the exhaust, you can't breath within ten feet of them and they can't idle unless they are continuously brake torqued? If a car is "restored" correctly it can be driven any time and anywhere. Isn't that what these cars were capable of when they were brand new?! ALL of these vehicles were manufactured as "Drivers"! Just because someone chooses to let them sit doesn't mean they can't or shouldn't function properly!!
I agree on your point of view. But I would not call a car with a fully painted ubibody underside and components that are supposed to be bare iron or steel painted to appear correct but avoid corrossion a "modified" car.
Nobody will argue that keeping the underisde of a restored car clean and nice is a lot easier when you are dealing with a clearcoated surface vs. a primered surface.
If you drive the car somewhat often the "correctly" done car will look like a used car pretty fast, unless you are really a slave to the car about keeping it super clean after each drive. But on the other hand, Oh well, I guess thats what you have to do when you drive a 200k car down the road that you spent 2 years restoring. It should not bother you.
Man o man. Im kinda torn in between what to do.
I think I will probably perform a full OE restoration on the most valuable cars and then on the clones or lesser valuable cars (or cars I intend on driving more often) Ill go for the "over restored" look.
-------------But getting back to the main question: Will a correctly restored car always bring more money or have more potential buyers and/or interested parties than an "over restored" car?-----------
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Re: Over restoring vs.OEM restoration. Resale value.
[Re: domingo]
#639630
03/14/10 10:27 PM
03/14/10 10:27 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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If people were doing true OEM restos there would be surface rust on many of the under body componants just like the cars were when they were new sitting on the dealers lots. 
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Re: Over restoring vs.OEM restoration. Resale value.
[Re: domingo]
#639631
03/14/10 10:36 PM
03/14/10 10:36 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 6,446
NJ-USA
HPMike
master
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master
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 6,446
NJ-USA
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
...an over restored look ......I do want to drive this cars some
Definition of Restore: return to its original or usable and functioning condition.
Definition of Modification: alteration - the act of making something different.
There is no such thing as "over-restoring" anything. If you make it different than original it is modified. For some reason many folks have a problem with the correct definition so they re-label it with verbiage they can live with. Cars that are changed or altered from original are simply "Modified".
On a personal note, every OE restoration I have been involved with WAS restored as a daily driver. Whether it is being used for show or is to be driven everyday, the restoration is the same. It is important to have a vehicle that functions like a new car AND appears like new. There is nothing worse than having a nice looking piece of junk! How many of you have seen cars that look nice but when the show is over it takes 30 seconds of cranking to start them, they billow black smoke out of the exhaust, you can't breath within ten feet of them and they can't idle unless they are continuously brake torqued? If a car is "restored" correctly it can be driven any time and anywhere. Isn't that what these cars were capable of when they were brand new?! ALL of these vehicles were manufactured as "Drivers"! Just because someone chooses to let them sit doesn't mean they can't or shouldn't function properly!!
I agree on your point of view. But I would not call a car with a fully painted ubibody underside and components that are supposed to be bare iron or steel painted to appear correct but avoid corrossion a "modified" car.
Nobody will argue that keeping the underisde of a restored car clean and nice is a lot easier when you are dealing with a clearcoated surface vs. a primered surface.
If you drive the car somewhat often the "correctly" done car will look like a used car pretty fast, unless you are really a slave to the car about keeping it super clean after each drive. But on the other hand, Oh well, I guess thats what you have to do when you drive a 200k car down the road that you spent 2 years restoring. It should not bother you.
Man o man. Im kinda torn in between what to do.
I think I will probably perform a full OE restoration on the most valuable cars and then on the clones or lesser valuable cars (or cars I intend on driving more often) Ill go for the "over restored" look.
-------------But getting back to the main question: Will a correctly restored car always bring more money or have more potential buyers and/or interested parties than an "over restored" car?-----------
To answer your question. NO.
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Re: Over restoring vs.OEM restoration. Resale value.
#639632
03/14/10 10:40 PM
03/14/10 10:40 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,109
Hiram, Georgia
474218
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,109
Hiram, Georgia
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Quote:
If people were doing true OEM restos there would be surface rust on many of the under body componants just like the cars were when they were new sitting on the dealers lots.
Like I said before: When I bought my new 69 RR it took me three weekends for remove all those annoying grease pencil marks that they put all over it.
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Re: Over restoring vs.OEM restoration. Resale value.
#639634
03/14/10 11:38 PM
03/14/10 11:38 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,039
INDIANA
Paul Jacobs
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,039
INDIANA
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Quote:
If people were doing true OEM restos there would be surface rust on many of the under body componants just like the cars were when they were new sitting on the dealers lots.
For sure that they were indeed like that very soon after they left the factory, but the objective in an OE restoration is best case scenario the day it left the factory. Also in that all date codes/part numbers/factory procedures were duplicated as original to that car.
As stated by Dave, OE cars don't have to be dogs and should be as functional as they are beautiful. If you saw us at the 2009 Nats award ceremony, you would have seen us in the 1 of 12 HEMI GTX convert. slamming gears and getting rubber! If you can't do both, it's just a dog & pony show!
As for your question of getting the most $$$ out of which one, all I can say is the "prettier" of the 2 will appeal to more people. Many can't appreciate or even care what it takes to make a car OE correct-and that's fine. I actually overheard a guy laughing at an OE car, saying how sloppy the paint looked on the negative battery cable..  To each his own.
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Re: Over restoring vs.OEM restoration. Resale value.
[Re: Paul Jacobs]
#639635
03/15/10 01:32 AM
03/15/10 01:32 AM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Quote:
If people were doing true OEM restos there would be surface rust on many of the under body componants just like the cars were when they were new sitting on the dealers lots.
For sure that they were indeed like that very soon after they left the factory, but the objective in an OE restoration is best case scenario the day it left the factory. Also in that all date codes/part numbers/factory procedures were duplicated as original to that car.
As stated by Dave, OE cars don't have to be dogs and should be as functional as they are beautiful. If you saw us at the 2009 Nats award ceremony, you would have seen us in the 1 of 12 HEMI GTX convert. slamming gears and getting rubber! If you can't do both, it's just a dog & pony show!
As for your question of getting the most $$$ out of which one, all I can say is the "prettier" of the 2 will appeal to more people. Many can't appreciate or even care what it takes to make a car OE correct-and that's fine. I actually overheard a guy laughing at an OE car, saying how sloppy the paint looked on the negative battery cable.. To each his own.
However many of our more beloved high dollar Mopars were sales bank cars such as A12s, AARs, T/As, Superbirds, and Daytonas and they sat there for a long time rusting long before they got to the dealer lots.
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Re: Over restoring vs.OEM restoration. Resale value.
[Re: HPMike]
#639636
03/15/10 01:50 AM
03/15/10 01:50 AM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
I agree on your point of view. But I would not call a car with a fully painted ubibody underside and components that are supposed to be bare iron or steel painted to appear correct but avoid corrossion a "modified" car.
It is not my point of view! I quoted the definition of each descriptive EXACTLY as they were taken from the dictionary. Whether you choose to accept or ignore that fact does not change reality one bit. If it is not restored to original specifications then it is modified. Plain and simple! Trying to decide which method will bring more money is like debating which color is prettier....Red or Blue? Facts are Facts and opinions are opinions. Do what you want and hopefully it will appeal to a buyer that has similar taste. As soon as you make a move either way, someone will always take the other side and come back with the typical, "Yeah but what about..... ".
Besides....people can't even convey a 100% non-opinionated FACT without someone responding with a contradicting phrase such as:
"But I would not call a car with a fully painted ubibody underside and components that are supposed to be bare iron or steel painted to appear correct but avoid corrossion a "modified" car."
Like it or not, if it didn't originally come like that from the factory then it has been Modified!!
Restore: Return to its original or usable and functioning condition.
Modification: Alteration - the act of making something different.
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Re: Over restoring vs.OEM restoration. Resale value.
#639637
03/15/10 02:03 AM
03/15/10 02:03 AM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
If people were doing true OEM restos there would be surface rust....
....and acid rain spots AND scratches that were caused by belt buckles of potential buyers that leaned over the cars AND salt corrosion from the salt trucks as they scattered salt when they passed by in the Winter AND on AND on. I guess one could come up with infinite scenarios in order to hide or excuse their inability to make an OE part look brand new again! I'll go out on a limb here to say that no metal part on a car was ever extruded, forged or stamped with deliberate or "built in" rust.  
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Re: Over restoring vs.OEM restoration. Resale value.
#639638
03/15/10 02:10 AM
03/15/10 02:10 AM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Quote:
If people were doing true OEM restos there would be surface rust....
....and acid rain spots AND scratches that were caused by belt buckles of potential buyers that leaned over the cars AND salt corrosion from the salt trucks as they scattered salt when they passed by in the Winter AND on AND on. I guess one could come up with infinite scenarios in order to hide or excuse their inability to make an OE part look brand new again! I'll go out on a limb here to say that no metal part on a car was ever extruded, forged or stamped with deliberate or "built in" rust.
Yeah, that is all true but my post about the rust was written in the same flavor of your restored vs. modified post. You will never get 10 people to agree on where to draw the line on what they think is the difference between the two regardless of what the dictionary says.
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Re: Over restoring vs.OEM restoration. Resale value.
[Re: intragration]
#639640
03/15/10 07:39 AM
03/15/10 07:39 AM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 6,446
NJ-USA
HPMike
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master
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 6,446
NJ-USA
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Quote:
It's only new once. Technically, if it's a 100% survivor with brake job, it's been modified. Having said that, I think it's kind of dumb to put all that time and money into a car that's purposely being restored in a way that is more prone to deteriorate. There will always be SOMETHING that the OE purists will complain about. There will ALWAYS be something that is not OE correct. A nice looking car stands on its own.
That is a good point...
There are a couple of problems with going OEM route. To do a "true" OEM job, you really need assembly line or "lunch pail" parts at this point as the bar has been raised so high that the level is almost unobtainable at this time. It's gotten to where just NOS is no longer good enough in most cases. Where are we going to find all of the original dated exhaust, glass, and countless other misc parts to perform a job to achieve a true OE standard? Don't misinterpret what I am saying by thinking I don't like or respect the effort that goes into an OEM job. I do, and hats off to all that achieve that level. It is a Herculean effort at times. 
I have seen time and time again where cars that had exceptional detail, yet weren't OE level, or were even very tastefully modified were reaching the highest levels of value. As Paul stated above more seem to focus on how "pretty" the car is rather than how correct it is.
MB
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Re: Over restoring vs.OEM restoration. Resale value.
[Re: intragration]
#639642
03/15/10 10:27 AM
03/15/10 10:27 AM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
It's only new once. Technically, if it's a 100% survivor with brake job, it's been modified.
Not true! You have just changed and diverted the conversation from something "restored" versus it's "originality". Two completely different subjects! No one ever argued that it can only be original once. You CAN give a car a "brake job" and the vehicle can STILL be correct with regards to what it has been "restored" with. The vehicle originally came with specified "brakes". (Did the tie rods or other suspension pieces originally come with cast blast paint or powder coating?) If you change the brakes from drum to disc or from 10 inch to 11 inch, THAT is a different story. My only point was that in order to be a "Restoration" liberties cannot be taken that alters the appearance or specifications that originally came on a vehicle. Once again, if you replace the "brakes" with an exact duplicate of what it came with then you have "restored" that particular aspect of the vehicle. No one is debating whether it is still "original".
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Re: Over restoring vs.OEM restoration. Resale value.
[Re: RoadRunnerJD]
#639643
03/15/10 12:23 PM
03/15/10 12:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,670
Lima, Peru
domingo
OP
EL Master
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OP
EL Master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,670
Lima, Peru
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Quote:
It is a little unpredictable as to how much the total of a complete rotisserie restoration will end up costing. I'm working on one now that I would be lucky to break even on if I sold it when it's done. However, I am not fixing it to sell but restoring it to enjoy driving it often for a few years. It may still be break even at best if I ever sell it. You have all very desireable cars. If you are mostly just restoring your cars to ultimately sell, you could end up with more invested than you can get out of them, especially your time? You will probably be just as well off to restore only the car(s) that you might want to keep and do nothing to the cars that you want to sell. My personal preference on cars like you have is not over-restored. You can restore the parts to original and treat them so they do not rust and typically, you just need to be concerned with a good cleaning up after driving in bad weather. How you store them is also a factor. You can probably still make the same or a reasonable amount of profit without all the cost, time and trouble of doing so many restorations. Whomever you sell the cars to can then have the option of restoring their cars to their own liking. If you sell them for a profit without doing anything to them, at least you know you made a profit. It may not be that easy to ensure that you make a profit by the time you have all that time and money invested in them?
Yes, you are very right with what you say. However, some of these cars I got at a very good price, and they are pretty nice, they are not rustbuckets. I have a fully implemented shop of my own so I can do the work myself and not spend much on labour....besides I enjoy it and it is a hobby I can do parallel to other activities.
Yes, some I will try to sell without putting a dime or a minute of my time on them, others I will restore and sell, others I will keep. I have restored a few already so I know aprox how much iut takes to do each of them depending on their actual condition.
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