Quote:

---

...an over restored look ......I do want to drive this cars some

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

...an over restored look ......I do want to drive this cars some

---

Definition of Restore: return to its original or usable and functioning condition.

Definition of Modification: alteration - the act of making something different.


There is no such thing as "over-restoring" anything. If you make it different than original it is modified. For some reason many folks have a problem with the correct definition so they re-label it with verbiage they can live with. Cars that are changed or altered from original are simply "Modified".

On a personal note, every OE restoration I have been involved with WAS restored as a daily driver. Whether it is being used for show or is to be driven everyday, the restoration is the same. It is important to have a vehicle that functions like a new car AND appears like new. There is nothing worse than having a nice looking piece of junk! How many of you have seen cars that look nice but when the show is over it takes 30 seconds of cranking to start them, they billow black smoke out of the exhaust, you can't breath within ten feet of them and they can't idle unless they are continuously brake torqued? If a car is "restored" correctly it can be driven any time and anywhere. Isn't that what these cars were capable of when they were brand new?! ALL of these vehicles were manufactured as "Drivers"! Just because someone chooses to let them sit doesn't mean they can't or shouldn't function properly!!

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

...an over restored look ......I do want to drive this cars some

---

Definition of Restore: return to its original or usable and functioning condition.

Definition of Modification: alteration - the act of making something different.


There is no such thing as "over-restoring" anything. If you make it different than original it is modified. For some reason many folks have a problem with the correct definition so they re-label it with verbiage they can live with. Cars that are changed or altered from original are simply "Modified".

On a personal note, every OE restoration I have been involved with WAS restored as a daily driver. Whether it is being used for show or is to be driven everyday, the restoration is the same. It is important to have a vehicle that functions like a new car AND appears like new. There is nothing worse than having a nice looking piece of junk! How many of you have seen cars that look nice but when the show is over it takes 30 seconds of cranking to start them, they billow black smoke out of the exhaust, you can't breath within ten feet of them and they can't idle unless they are continuously brake torqued? If a car is "restored" correctly it can be driven any time and anywhere. Isn't that what these cars were capable of when they were brand new?! ALL of these vehicles were manufactured as "Drivers"! Just because someone chooses to let them sit doesn't mean they can't or shouldn't function properly!!

---

I agree on your point of view. But I would not call a car with a fully painted ubibody underside and components that are supposed to be bare iron or steel painted to appear correct but avoid corrossion a "modified" car.

Nobody will argue that keeping the underisde of a restored car clean and nice is a lot easier when you are dealing with a clearcoated surface vs. a primered surface.

If you drive the car somewhat often the "correctly" done car will look like a used car pretty fast, unless you are really a slave to the car about keeping it super clean after each drive. But on the other hand, Oh well, I guess thats what you have to do when you drive a 200k car down the road that you spent 2 years restoring. It should not bother you.

Man o man. Im kinda torn in between what to do.

I think I will probably perform a full OE restoration on the most valuable cars and then on the clones or lesser valuable cars (or cars I intend on driving more often) Ill go for the "over restored" look.

-------------But getting back to the main question: Will a correctly restored car always bring more money or have more potential buyers and/or interested parties than an "over restored" car?-----------

---

Quote:

---

If people were doing true OEM restos there would be surface rust on many of the under body componants just like the cars were when they were new sitting on the dealers lots.

---

Like I said before: When I bought my new 69 RR it took me three weekends for remove all those annoying grease pencil marks that they put all over it.

Quote:

---

If people were doing true OEM restos there would be surface rust on many of the under body componants just like the cars were when they were new sitting on the dealers lots.

---

For sure that they were indeed like that very soon after they left the factory, but the objective in an OE restoration is best case scenario the day it left the factory. Also in that all date codes/part numbers/factory procedures were duplicated as original to that car.
As stated by Dave, OE cars don't have to be dogs and should be as functional as they are beautiful. If you saw us at the 2009 Nats award ceremony, you would have seen us in the 1 of 12 HEMI GTX convert. slamming gears and getting rubber! If you can't do both, it's just a dog & pony show!
As for your question of getting the most $$$ out of which one, all I can say is the "prettier" of the 2 will appeal to more people. Many can't appreciate or even care what it takes to make a car OE correct-and that's fine. I actually overheard a guy laughing at an OE car, saying how sloppy the paint looked on the negative battery cable.. To each his own.

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

If people were doing true OEM restos there would be surface rust on many of the under body componants just like the cars were when they were new sitting on the dealers lots.

---

For sure that they were indeed like that very soon after they left the factory, but the objective in an OE restoration is best case scenario the day it left the factory. Also in that all date codes/part numbers/factory procedures were duplicated as original to that car.
As stated by Dave, OE cars don't have to be dogs and should be as functional as they are beautiful. If you saw us at the 2009 Nats award ceremony, you would have seen us in the 1 of 12 HEMI GTX convert. slamming gears and getting rubber! If you can't do both, it's just a dog & pony show!
As for your question of getting the most $$$ out of which one, all I can say is the "prettier" of the 2 will appeal to more people. Many can't appreciate or even care what it takes to make a car OE correct-and that's fine. I actually overheard a guy laughing at an OE car, saying how sloppy the paint looked on the negative battery cable.. To each his own.

---

Quote:

---

I agree on your point of view. But I would not call a car with a fully painted ubibody underside and components that are supposed to be bare iron or steel painted to appear correct but avoid corrossion a "modified" car.

---

It is not my point of view! I quoted the definition of each descriptive EXACTLY as they were taken from the dictionary. Whether you choose to accept or ignore that fact does not change reality one bit. If it is not restored to original specifications then it is modified. Plain and simple! Trying to decide which method will bring more money is like debating which color is prettier....Red or Blue? Facts are Facts and opinions are opinions. Do what you want and hopefully it will appeal to a buyer that has similar taste. As soon as you make a move either way, someone will always take the other side and come back with the typical, "Yeah but what about..... ".

Besides....people can't even convey a 100% non-opinionated FACT without someone responding with a contradicting phrase such as:

"But I would not call a car with a fully painted ubibody underside and components that are supposed to be bare iron or steel painted to appear correct but avoid corrossion a "modified" car."


Like it or not, if it didn't originally come like that from the factory then it has been Modified!!

Restore: Return to its original or usable and functioning condition.
Modification: Alteration - the act of making something different.

Quote:

---

If people were doing true OEM restos there would be surface rust....

---

....and acid rain spots AND scratches that were caused by belt buckles of potential buyers that leaned over the cars AND salt corrosion from the salt trucks as they scattered salt when they passed by in the Winter AND on AND on. I guess one could come up with infinite scenarios in order to hide or excuse their inability to make an OE part look brand new again! I'll go out on a limb here to say that no metal part on a car was ever extruded, forged or stamped with deliberate or "built in" rust.

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

If people were doing true OEM restos there would be surface rust....

---

....and acid rain spots AND scratches that were caused by belt buckles of potential buyers that leaned over the cars AND salt corrosion from the salt trucks as they scattered salt when they passed by in the Winter AND on AND on. I guess one could come up with infinite scenarios in order to hide or excuse their inability to make an OE part look brand new again! I'll go out on a limb here to say that no metal part on a car was ever extruded, forged or stamped with deliberate or "built in" rust.

---

Yeah, that is all true but my post about the rust was written in the same flavor of your restored vs. modified post. You will never get 10 people to agree on where to draw the line on what they think is the difference between the two regardless of what the dictionary says.

Quote:

---

It's only new once. Technically, if it's a 100% survivor with brake job, it's been modified. Having said that, I think it's kind of dumb to put all that time and money into a car that's purposely being restored in a way that is more prone to deteriorate. There will always be SOMETHING that the OE purists will complain about. There will ALWAYS be something that is not OE correct. A nice looking car stands on its own.

---

That is a good point...

There are a couple of problems with going OEM route. To do a "true" OEM job, you really need assembly line or "lunch pail" parts at this point as the bar has been raised so high that the level is almost unobtainable at this time. It's gotten to where just NOS is no longer good enough in most cases. Where are we going to find all of the original dated exhaust, glass, and countless other misc parts to perform a job to achieve a true OE standard? Don't misinterpret what I am saying by thinking I don't like or respect the effort that goes into an OEM job. I do, and hats off to all that achieve that level. It is a Herculean effort at times.

I have seen time and time again where cars that had exceptional detail, yet weren't OE level, or were even very tastefully modified were reaching the highest levels of value. As Paul stated above more seem to focus on how "pretty" the car is rather than how correct it is.

MB

Quote:

---

It's only new once. Technically, if it's a 100% survivor with brake job, it's been modified.

---

Quote:

---

It is a little unpredictable as to how much the total of a complete rotisserie restoration will end up costing. I'm working on one now that I would be lucky to break even on if I sold it when it's done. However, I am not fixing it to sell but restoring it to enjoy driving it often for a few years. It may still be break even at best if I ever sell it. You have all very desireable cars. If you are mostly just restoring your cars to ultimately sell, you could end up with more invested than you can get out of them, especially your time? You will probably be just as well off to restore only the car(s) that you might want to keep and do nothing to the cars that you want to sell. My personal preference on cars like you have is not over-restored. You can restore the parts to original and treat them so they do not rust and typically, you just need to be concerned with a good cleaning up after driving in bad weather. How you store them is also a factor. You can probably still make the same or a reasonable amount of profit without all the cost, time and trouble of doing so many restorations. Whomever you sell the cars to can then have the option of restoring their cars to their own liking. If you sell them for a profit without doing anything to them, at least you know you made a profit. It may not be that easy to ensure that you make a profit by the time you have all that time and money invested in them?

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

I agree on your point of view. But I would not call a car with a fully painted ubibody underside and components that are supposed to be bare iron or steel painted to appear correct but avoid corrossion a "modified" car.

---

It is not my point of view! I quoted the definition of each descriptive EXACTLY as they were taken from the dictionary. Whether you choose to accept or ignore that fact does not change reality one bit. If it is not restored to original specifications then it is modified. Plain and simple! Trying to decide which method will bring more money is like debating which color is prettier....Red or Blue? Facts are Facts and opinions are opinions. Do what you want and hopefully it will appeal to a buyer that has similar taste. As soon as you make a move either way, someone will always take the other side and come back with the typical, "Yeah but what about..... ".

Besides....people can't even convey a 100% non-opinionated FACT without someone responding with a contradicting phrase such as:

"But I would not call a car with a fully painted ubibody underside and components that are supposed to be bare iron or steel painted to appear correct but avoid corrossion a "modified" car."


Like it or not, if it didn't originally come like that from the factory then it has been Modified!!

Restore: Return to its original or usable and functioning condition.
Modification: Alteration - the act of making something different.

---

Quote:

---

(....I'm looking for the beating a dead horse icon but I can't find it...)

With all that being said I think I have an answer for you. I live very close to some restorations shops and the norm today is for cars that will be sold is a nice restoration......using many repop parts....gray, painted undercarriages, keeping overspray to an minimum. Keeping the cost low so the profits are high. NOS parts cost a lot of money....repop parts are not original but costs a lot less. Once a NOS part is installed, it's no longer a NOS part so what's the point???

The 2%ers will NEVER get all the money out of the cars that they put into it. There even worse off if they paid somebody else to do the work. The market is just not there today.

There is one shop here that has got this down to a science. He makes the paint real nice....powder coats many of the parts for longevity, applies many of the inspection marks....he make the cars look good and sorry to say, that is where the money is AND you can drive the daylights out of it.

---

Im starting to think we have a winner. However, I would only use repro parts when they are really nice repros. Poor fitting or easily visible "off" repros would be ruled out on my cars. I absolutely hate that!!!! How about when you see a cuda with a repro shaker bubble where they never took the time (because they are lazy or they just ingore it) to trim out the extra resin casting flas on the shaker grille openings. Man o man!!! That makes me cringe everytime!!!! Or what about when they use repro quarter panels and they dont trim out the excess lip off them. Or when they install one of those JUNK Challenger rear valances that are way too wide and they just shove em in without modifying them so they fit like OEM and they bow and look like they are sagging.

You see a lot of cars built like that on ebay. You can clearly see when a car was built to be flipped and just make a buck. Regardless if its an attempt to an OEM resto, or a so called "over-resoration".

Quote:

---

"I dont think yu will be able to find the correct laquer paint anywhere nowadays."
None of the car you listed came from the factory with laquer painted exteriors. Specific parts maybe but not the exterior paint.

---

Quote:

---

I have yet to meet anyone that has gone for an OE gold rsto. and drives their car. The two don't mix! I restored mine the way the factory would have done it if they took two years to do it. Drivability and durability.
KID

---

i second,i'm happy with the same,just what makes ya happy,i like crusing and hammering it from time to time,not so upsetting when something brakes,then you would have to search for an nos part. good luck

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

"I dont think yu will be able to find the correct laquer paint anywhere nowadays."
None of the car you listed came from the factory with laquer painted exteriors. Specific parts maybe but not the exterior paint.

---

OK whatever the original paint was called, you cant get it nowadays. Thats what I was trying to convey.

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

I agree on your point of view. But I would not call a car with a fully painted ubibody underside and components that are supposed to be bare iron or steel painted to appear correct but avoid corrossion a "modified" car.

---

It is not my point of view! I quoted the definition of each descriptive EXACTLY as they were taken from the dictionary. Whether you choose to accept or ignore that fact does not change reality one bit. If it is not restored to original specifications then it is modified. Plain and simple! Trying to decide which method will bring more money is like debating which color is prettier....Red or Blue? Facts are Facts and opinions are opinions. Do what you want and hopefully it will appeal to a buyer that has similar taste. As soon as you make a move either way, someone will always take the other side and come back with the typical, "Yeah but what about..... ".

Besides....people can't even convey a 100% non-opinionated FACT without someone responding with a contradicting phrase such as:

"But I would not call a car with a fully painted ubibody underside and components that are supposed to be bare iron or steel painted to appear correct but avoid corrossion a "modified" car."


Like it or not, if it didn't originally come like that from the factory then it has been Modified!!

Restore: Return to its original or usable and functioning condition.
Modification: Alteration - the act of making something different.

---

Warning... Following this definition means that you need to use a single stage paint system (acrylic enamel). A clear coat/base coat paint is not original factory specifications....

also, if metallic paint, the suspended flakes in a base/clear will be much more noticeable which can even slightly change the shade.

Quote:

---

I think its a bit too generic to put the so called "over-restored" cars into the same bag as the a "modified" car with 20" wheels,a viper drivetrain and a custom interior with a monster tach atop the dashboard.

---

I don't recall expressing boundaries or degrees as it relates to being modified. While there are certainly degrees of being modified, just because one level (or extent) exceeds another doesn't take away from the fact that a car is "modified". Calling something "over-restored" is similar to stating that there are "Super Duper Mega-Virgins"! Something is simply "Virgin" or it is not! It is either restored (which means to original specs and appearance) or it is modified. It doesn't change a thing because some misuse or do not understand the definitions that they use on a daily basis. Reality is what it is!

Quote:

---

Warning... Following this definition means that you need to use a single stage paint system (acrylic enamel). A clear coat/base coat paint is not original factory specifications....

also, if metallic paint, the suspended flakes in a base/clear will be much more noticeable which can even slightly change the shade.

---

Correct!

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

(....I'm looking for the beating a dead horse icon but I can't find it...)

With all that being said I think I have an answer for you. I live very close to some restorations shops and the norm today is for cars that will be sold is a nice restoration......using many repop parts....gray, painted undercarriages, keeping overspray to an minimum. Keeping the cost low so the profits are high. NOS parts cost a lot of money....repop parts are not original but costs a lot less. Once a NOS part is installed, it's no longer a NOS part so what's the point???

The 2%ers will NEVER get all the money out of the cars that they put into it. There even worse off if they paid somebody else to do the work. The market is just not there today.

There is one shop here that has got this down to a science. He makes the paint real nice....powder coats many of the parts for longevity, applies many of the inspection marks....he make the cars look good and sorry to say, that is where the money is AND you can drive the daylights out of it.

---

Im starting to think we have a winner. However, I would only use repro parts when they are really nice repros. Poor fitting or easily visible "off" repros would be ruled out on my cars. I absolutely hate that!!!! How about when you see a cuda with a repro shaker bubble where they never took the time (because they are lazy or they just ingore it) to trim out the extra resin casting flas on the shaker grille openings. Man o man!!! That makes me cringe everytime!!!! Or what about when they use repro quarter panels and they dont trim out the excess lip off them. Or when they install one of those JUNK Challenger rear valances that are way too wide and they just shove em in without modifying them so they fit like OEM and they bow and look like they are sagging.

You see a lot of cars built like that on ebay. You can clearly see when a car was built to be flipped and just make a buck. Regardless if its an attempt to an OEM resto, or a so called "over-resoration".

---

Domingo,
For what its worth, I recently went through a very exhaustive rotissery restoration process. I started out restoring to factory spec but many hours/$$/FRUSTRATIONS later, I changed my game plan to BASF (I didnt make the car just made it better.. and to my liking). You can say I now have a near original factory with 10% overrestore (painted underside) and 10% equip. modify.

IMO, No car is ever a perfect resto and for the ones that are close, owners sweat hoping that one of the few deep pocket individuals will help them get their $$ back out of it.

Lastly, keep in mind that when many folks got their new factory spec cars home, they quickly modified them with "go-faster" engine/suspension modifications... Have fun with it...

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

I think its a bit too generic to put the so called "over-restored" cars into the same bag as the a "modified" car with 20" wheels,a viper drivetrain and a custom interior with a monster tach atop the dashboard.

---

I don't recall expressing boundaries or degrees as it relates to being modified. While there are certainly degrees of being modified, just because one level (or extent) exceeds another doesn't take away from the fact that a car is "modified". Calling something "over-restored" is similar to stating that there are "Super Duper Mega-Virgins"! Something is simply "Virgin" or it is not! It is either restored (which means to original specs and appearance) or it is modified. It doesn't change a thing because some misuse or do not understand the definitions that they use on a daily basis. Reality is what it is!

---

Quote:

---

Absolutely Beautiful work Mike. It looks Fantastic!

---

Thanks Dave

When considering value, all I can add is that I did another R4 red A12 car that was a 4 speed some time back for the same guy. This car was modified and had headers and frame connectors, among other things but was a very nicely done car that also ran pretty hard, but not quite as hard as the black car runs. Like the black car, it had some very nice paint and body work.

That car wound up in the hands of Colin Comer, who sold it a few years back for 150K at the BJ circus. The motor and trans were not #'s matching. And he didn't do anything to it from when I had it in my shop. i thought that was pretty steep for a non #'s car that was modified, but it looked, ran, and sounded good.

Who knows what the future holds, but perhaps the correctly restored OEM cars will be the heavies, now that the uneducated buyers with the loose wallets have faded into the background.

MB

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

"I dont think yu will be able to find the correct laquer paint anywhere nowadays."
None of the car you listed came from the factory with laquer painted exteriors. Specific parts maybe but not the exterior paint.

---

OK whatever the original paint was called, you cant get it nowadays. Thats what I was trying to convey.

---

Paul Jacobs, since you are reading this.... Wasn't it single stage enamel?
Can't you still get it from PPG?
What do you use on your OE restorations?

---

Quote:

---

All these posts defining, refining, and offering underlying definitions of over restored vs. OE concours hasnt answered the mans initial OPs requestion on resale. The man asked about resale.....
In the end, I prefer an over restored car because.....

---

His question WAS answered quite a few times within this thread! Ignoring the responses because they do not correlate with your particular view does not qualify the oversight. There is no defining line within this subject matter. I commented in an earlier post: "Do what you want and hopefully it will appeal to a buyer that has similar taste. As soon as you make a move either way, someone will always take the other side and come back with the typical, "Yeah but what about..... ".

There are pros and cons for each side. The subject matter is completely pursuant to a person's likes or dislikes. I doubt anyone will find a book or manual that provides that proverbial "line in the sand" as to what is better or which style brings more $$$.

Quote:

---

I would never actually OWN an OE car. Let the games begin...

---

Me neither.

MB

Quote:

---

The man asked about resale.

---

I gave my opinion at least twice in this thread

I know, I am irrelevant

MB

Quote:

---

An 'over restored' car will have a larger target audience and chances are will sell faster and maybe even for similar amounts. Thus creating a better chance to recoupe the investement verses and OE level done car

case in point - my former car. It is not, was not, nor was it ever intended to be an OE level car in any way shape or form from the very beginning.
This has to be a record for a single 4 barrel 340 challenger hardtop
http://www.barrett-jackson.com/applicati...;pop=0&it=1

to the OP, do what makes you and/or your intended client market happy and run with it

ps
PJ, I call shotgun

---

Bill

That car looks awesome! I would have passed on it because of the master cylinder. J/K, of course.

MB

Quote:

---

I know, I am irrelevant MB

---

You are being much to modest Mike! I know that some consider these posts to be but the concepts and opinions are what provides substance to the original question. There will always be small subdivides that constitute a general theme. I find it comical that some STILL continue to ignore reality and fight the obvious truth. For instance consider the comment, " I have an issue with the description of modified...... Many shows allow up to 3 modifications before you were put into the modified class."

If you repeat that over and over, it's contradictory content becomes clearer and clearer. For the purpose of illustration lets rephrase that concept in a different manner. Suppose a teacher tells her students that they can miss up to 3 days of school and STILL be awarded a "Perfect" attendance award! Or can you imagine asking an old girlfriend/boyfriend if they are still a Virgin and they reply, "Why of course!!! I have only had Sex three times in my life!"
It is a riot the acceptable contradictions that have made their way into this Hobby. We continue to lower the bar to make others feel comfortable or justified for their incorrect deviations. Does anyone else ever wonder why so many areas of our Hobby seem to digress?!

Quote:

---

You guys are funny. You might be surprised to see what I prefer. This is my build-for me. I would never actually OWN an OE car. Let the games begin...

---

Bill, you can have shotgun if I can ride in the back. Heck, I'll take the trunk. Very cool.

Joe

Quote:

---

You have to think in the mind of a factory worker of that era. They did not give a sh** and wanted to just get the job done with a minimal amount of effort......Our cars are NOT OE anymore, that time has past. ....Sorry but these cars are a waste of money if you go for that gold OE resto crap instead of driving like it was built for.

---

Hi Pat,
It is really neat that you have an older car for being a relatively young man. I am sure that you are just as sincere as the next guy but where did you come up with your information? Do you really think that NONE of the employees had a positive work ethic or that EVERY person working for Chrysler was determined to do the worst job they possibly could? You obviously have your opinion regarding these cars being "driven" but what about the guy who isn't worried about the monetary aspect? What about those who document and research them so the history and heritage of these cars are not forgotten? We don't live in the 1700's but I would guarantee that those who attended school HAD to take History courses which referenced that particular century. For what purpose? We no longer live in the 1700's! Why does it have to be one way or the highway in this Hobby?

Isn't the diversity the primary aspect that makes this Hobby interesting? I would think that this World would be a horribly boring place if everyone thought and acted exactly like I did. Going on Vacation (to a new Country for instance) is exciting because it gives one the opportunity to experience things beyond our normal everyday lives. You might believe that driving these old dinosaurs is the next best thing since sliced bread! I would MUCH rather climb behind the wheel of a new Viper, Z06 Corvette, Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc.... but would never tell you that you are wrong for the way you feel! I appreciate the old cars because they WERE the preclude to the Super-cars that we drive today. Differing views should not make us enemies within the same automotive fraternity. While I don't necessarily like every vehicle on an equal basis, I have a respect and admiration for the entire automotive industry. Some people "hate" certain makes and models of cars. The fact is, that without the introduction of some of those "hated" cars, YOUR favorite model might never have come to fruition! Don't be too dismissive of the views and opinions of others. You will become a grouchy old man way before your time!

Quote:

---

If they were so positive about their work, then why would their be dripping spots of primer underneath the body of our cars, build sheets put wherever they wanted, or paint jobs that fall short of current standards of today? My point being is that they did not care. Just wanted to get the job done and earn their wage to support their families just like any person today wants to do.....Can't blame some of the other kids my age for driving ricers, cause all it does is piss the last generation off.

---

Hold your horses there Pat! No one has blamed you or anyone else posting here. First of all the underside primer drips were due to the vehicles coming out of a Dip Tank, not sloppy employees. This process is STILL being done the exact same way today! Many of the broadcast sheets were left in an inconspicuous, out of the way place....not out in the open! You have to disassemble certain parts of a car just to find them. As far as the paint jobs "that fall short of current standards of today" you have to remember that they are no longer painted by factory employees. They are painted by computerized robotics that are consistent to the exact millimeter. Technology and time has allowed for the improvements. Would you criticize the advancement of modern day surgeries because 30 years ago they were archaic in comparison with today's technology? Gall bladder surgery used to lay you up for DAYS now it can be performed as an out patient procedure. The "old" procedures were NECESSARY for these advancements to take place.
Don't listen to anyone who gives you grief about your opinions as they relate to your era or interests. If you look at my original post, I commended you on your interest regarding these old cars! Enjoy this Hobby for what it means to you and have fun.

Quote:

---

Many don't know that there was a hugh migration of iliterate people from the south back in the 60s seeking the better paying union jobs in the auto plants. This along with people that just didn't care and the lack of factory QC, there are a lot of differences in these old cars when they were new. Sure, there were exceptions with people that did care but all of them had time limitations on an assembly line that did not stop.

---

Hmmm

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Many don't know that there was a hugh migration of iliterate people from the south back in the 60s seeking the better paying union jobs in the auto plants. This along with people that just didn't care and the lack of factory QC, there are a lot of differences in these old cars when they were new. Sure, there were exceptions with people that did care but all of them had time limitations on an assembly line that did not stop.

---

Hmmm

---

Quote:

---

My thoughts on the factory line worker is that of any person who is earning a basic minimum wage working in an industrial type environment. That being said, it was very hard to find people that were positive about their work.

If they were so positive about their work, then why would their be dripping spots of primer underneath the body of our cars, build sheets put wherever they wanted, or paint jobs that fall short of current standards of today? My point being is that they did not care. Just wanted to get the job done and earn their wage to support their families just like any person today wants to do.

My issue with the hobby are the types where they have a heart attack over a starter relay not having the right part number on it. Or I'll drive my 80' malibu and older guys are like " Why did you stick with iron heads, for an extra 200$ you could have had aluminums". The problem that makes me stay away from car shows so much is that the "older crowd" critiques and bashes on the younger guys so much that the hobby no longer becomes fun. It makes us think that no matter what we do, we will never gain respect from the past generation. Can't blame some of the other kids my age for driving ricers, cause all it does is piss the last generation off.

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

My thoughts on the factory line worker is that of any person who is earning a basic minimum wage working in an industrial type environment. That being said, it was very hard to find people that were positive about their work.

If they were so positive about their work, then why would their be dripping spots of primer underneath the body of our cars, build sheets put wherever they wanted, or paint jobs that fall short of current standards of today? My point being is that they did not care. Just wanted to get the job done and earn their wage to support their families just like any person today wants to do.

My issue with the hobby are the types where they have a heart attack over a starter relay not having the right part number on it. Or I'll drive my 80' malibu and older guys are like " Why did you stick with iron heads, for an extra 200$ you could have had aluminums". The problem that makes me stay away from car shows so much is that the "older crowd" critiques and bashes on the younger guys so much that the hobby no longer becomes fun. It makes us think that no matter what we do, we will never gain respect from the past generation. Can't blame some of the other kids my age for driving ricers, cause all it does is piss the last generation off.

---

Right you are about the extremists who frown on non OE cars but you have that in any hobby, sport, passion, etc... Whats great about our passion is that the majority of folks LOVE cars (esp. MOPARS) and can appreciate a survivor, a perfect 100 pt. resto, a resto-Mod or even a custom. This keeps the fun in it.. And at the end of the day the true "value" of any car is purely subjective and is meaningless until someone is actually writing a check!

Ps. Its good to see the next gen stepping in to keep the passion for early muscle alive...

---

Quote:

---

I think it's the other way around? You have way more extremists who frown on those striving for an OE car. The OE guys I meet are generally all enthusiasts with varied experience. Just because they prefer what they're doing doesn't mean they frown upon anyone elses likes. There are plenty of guys who get on here that are trying to present their cars as restored that just open themselves up to constructive criticism. Some are looking for it and some resent it. Most of the time, it's a misunderstanding by the rest of the participants who don't even have a dog in the fight!

---

Quote:

---

Sorry if I offended you but it is a fact.

No slight on those people just a fact that the uneducated were looking to better themselves. Many of those assembly line jobs did not require the ability to read or write and were very repetitive simple jobs. Unfortunately, sometimes a supervisor would switch them to a job that did require it without knowing they couldn't and it caused problems until straighted out.

---

it ok darel me no fended i just borned hear an a prawd southner

Seriously, I was kidding with my first reply, you made it sound like the Grapes of Wrath migration, you're probably right but I bet it started after the war when car sales started to boom late 40's

Quote:

---

seriously modified car with a blower sticking out the hood or obviously wrong coil etc. Were talking about cars that are restored and those restored to "as close" condition as it would have come off the line......Whether the car has "flat unfolded" carpet or not it's still not original unless it was NOS.

---

Wow! This really can't be that difficult to understand....can it?! Exactly what does "seriously modified" actually mean? Is it similar to being a little bit or lot-ta bit pregnant? The definition of "Restore" is definitive, not relative to the subject matter! It is what it is!!! People choose to compromise and dilute it's meaning to facilitate their particular agenda.

And concerning your remark about, "flat unfolded" carpet or not it's still not original".... Did we just change trains of thought again? Restoring something has nothing to do with it's "originality".

To answer your question, "I mean who wants everything original anyway." That is very easy to answer! Anyone who still wants it original.

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

seriously modified car with a blower sticking out the hood or obviously wrong coil etc. Were talking about cars that are restored and those restored to "as close" condition as it would have come off the line......Whether the car has "flat unfolded" carpet or not it's still not original unless it was NOS.

---

Wow! This really can't be that difficult to understand....can it?! Exactly what does "seriously modified" actually mean? Is it similar to being a little bit or lot-ta bit pregnant? The definition of "Restore" is definitive, not relative to the subject matter! It is what it is!!! People choose to compromise and dilute it's meaning to facilitate their particular agenda.

And concerning your remark about, "flat unfolded" carpet or not it's still not original".... Did we just change trains of thought again? Restoring something has nothing to do with it's "originality".

To answer your question, "I mean who wants everything original anyway." That is very easy to answer! Anyone who still wants it original.

---

Quote:

---

Your freaking out over an absolute definition here.....I just don't think most of us really care about the exact absolute definition. A totally original car ....

---

Quote:

---

I just really don't care about what your ranting about.

---

So did we just switch topics of discussion again?

Quote:

---

Hi guys!

I have a few rare cars that I will be restoring in the following years.

Cars such as an original all numbers matching 69 HEMI Charger, a 4406 pack shaker Challenger 4 speed plum crazy, a Lemon twist 71 cuda 440-6 4 speed BB go wing car, a couple 71 cuda verts, a TA Challenger, etc.

I nam really torn in between going after

A) an OEM correct resto on all of them (with primered underbodies with overspray, bare metal surfaces, paint drips, etc), OEM steel exhaust systems, steel brake lines, etc.
B) an over restored look with paint as nice as the outside on the undeside as well, inner body panels, 3 stage paint all over. Detailed components,upgrade to stainless steel fuel and brake lines that are exact in appereance and function to the originals but polished stainless to keep them loking great forever, etc.

Problem is I do want to drive this cars some (I will care for them and only drive em occassionaly, but stillwant to enjoy them) and also I want them to keep looking nice, clean and fresh for as long as possible...something that cant be possible if shoting for an OEM resto where unpainted surfaces and primered undercarriages are bound to deteriorate QUICKLY if the cars arent treated like a full time trailer queen.

Problem is I might not keep them all ( I bought too many). I want to restore them all and sell some when the oportunity arises or after I decide which to keep and which not. But that may take a while and I do want to be able to recoup or make it as profitable as it could be when I sell...

So, do you think if I over restore the cars I might HURT their resale vale later on, or if they are done tastefully and extremely nice it should not matter much really even if they are not 100% OEM correct but made a little "better than new"?

Please not I would not use aftermarket parts, or cobble up stuff thats not supposed to be there from the factory. Im just talking about coating the whole body inn 2 stage urethane paint. Painting driveshafts and steering and suspension compoenents that are supposed to be bare metal, making the complete exhaust systems including the tips and mufflers in stainless steel resembling the originals in construction completely, stainless steel brake and fuel lines, etc.

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

I just really don't care about what your ranting about.

---

So did we just switch topics of discussion again?

---

I'm sure you will until you feel that you have the last word, or whatever measure it is this week you are going by to feel superior to others.

Maybe you will quit the board again.

Quote:

---

feel superior

---

Hey....its my good old buddy from way back when! Maybe your lack of self esteem (or identity) is what causes you to feel I that am somehow "superior." I am just a RegularCarGuy! Nothing special with or about me! You might try to at least mask your personal insecurities rather than expose them with opinions on how others must feel! Good to hear from you!!!! I hope you have been doing fantastic!!! What a WONDERFUL Surprise!!!!

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

feel superior

---

Hey....its my good old buddy from way back when! Maybe your lack of self esteem (or identity) is what causes you to feel I that am somehow "superior." I am just a RegularCarGuy! Nothing special with or about me! You might try to at least mask your personal insecurities rather than expose them with opinions on how others must feel! Good to hear from you!!!! I hope you have been doing fantastic!!! What a WONDERFUL Surprise!!!!

---

Good to see you back looking for something to hold over others. Board wasn't the same w/o you

Quote:

---

What were talking about again??

---

"OVER"
Restored! You see Paul when you place, hold or position the word "OVER" above something or "others", you can then consider it as being "OVER" Restored. When you move or store something from one location to another, that ALSO can be classified as being "Re-Stored"!
Brother Paul.....will you please be so kind as to lead us in a verse of Kumbayah?!

Quote:

---

Great thread with good insight from all sides.

I have the deepest respect for Dave Walden and others who go the extra several miles to bring a car to the closest version of perfection. Say what you want, their efforts help us all in more ways than one.

Along those lines I'd have to say what everyone already understands... serious multi car collectors, who make the 'high end' market, will almost always prefer OE standards. I'm guessing the occasional O.R. car that makes it into a collection is bought as a daily driver or some sort of sacrificial toy.

I'd add that below that upper end market 'factory appearing' 'FAST' cars have had an impact on the everyday enthusiast considering a resto. To ratchet on the initial question... what level of performance, if any, increases resale value? Do buyers prefer bone stock specs, high compression whiplash, or somewhere in the middle?

If you lean towards higher performance in your resto effort you're generally leaning away from OE.

---

Quote:

---

First off let me start by saying, you single handedly brought us to this definition discussion. Secondly, I am well aware of what the definitions are but wanted to point out that their usage varies.

So using your definitions:

(Definition of Restore: return to its original or usable and functioning condition.)
So what did you restore. Restore the finish of the car, restore the shine to the paint, restore working power and function to non functioning parts, restore the appearance, etc etc.

(Definition of Modification: alteration - the act of making something different.)
So what does modified refer to? Modified using parts that did not come on the car?? For instance, in discussing the flat unfolded carpet you replied "They are accurate reproductions but we never say they are original. They are original IN APPEARANCE."- So technically since this was not an original part of the car you did not restor it, but rather replaced it. Is it now modified according to your very strict definition?
Or can we imply that the understanding of the words "to restore a car" is generally meant to bring back in appearance what was originally there. I think the honest intent is in general appearance. Otherwise buying a replacement carpet instead of restoring the original (to the car) carpet would be considered modified.

This was my point earily. The definitions are understood but how they are applied is still up to opinion. So when you blasted someone for saying something was "over-restored" and got on your soap box to educate us all you opened the conversation up for debate, thus taking all of us off course. And for the record I believe 99% of us here understand what someone means when they say over-restored. In most cases they are saying to bring back to an original look in appearance with some deviations for personal preference to improve the car. Maybe a better quality paint job, maybe a nicer carpet that doesnt fade with UV rays, or a dash pad that doesn't crack after a year in the sun. It is personal taste on what the perceived improvement is. However, the OP was not saying I want to over restore the car with glass packs, shag carpet, and fuzzy dice. Im sure that was not his intent. I think he just wanted to say, will I get the most resale by sticking 100% to what the factory did in appearance (paint dabs, decals, drips, overspray etc) or can I do things like spray color on the underside, use stainless steel brake lines and go base coat clear coat and what kind of money can I expect?

---

Quote:

---

So using your definitions:

(Definition of Restore: return to its original or usable and functioning condition.)

(Definition of Modification: alteration - the act of making something different.)

---

First of all, they were never "MY" definitions. They were taken straight from Websters Dictionary. Second, you have (once again) twisted the definition of "Restore" to accommodate YOUR particular agenda. Why did you decide to ONLY grasp the "original" part of the definition? Didn't you notice that it ALSO referenced "usable" and "functioning condition" in CONJUNCTION with with the word "original". If anyone used your twisted rationale, the word "Restore" contradicts it's own definition and meaning! Maybe the expanded definition will make it a little easier to understand.

Main Entry: re·store
Pronunciation: \ri-ˈstȯr\
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): re·stored; re·stor·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French restorer, from Latin restaurare to renew, rebuild, alteration of instaurare to renew
Date: 14th century

1 : to return (something, esp a work of art or building) to an original or former condition.
2 : to bring back to or put back into a former or original state.
3 : return to its original or usable and functioning condition.
4 : to put someone or something back in a former position.

Now is that simple enough? Is a different color or slick paint job the "former condition/original state" of an OE car? Is painting or powder coating bare metal components considered the "former condition/original state" of an OE car? Is a different tire size than the factory size considered the "former condition/original state" for an OE car? Do you understand the concept of "former condition/original state" as it is used in the definition "Restore" or do you want to play semantics, parse and twist those particular meanings too? Like I stated earlier, under your logic the word "Restore" is an illogical moot point and should be completely removed from the English language. Your logic would make it impossible to "restore" anything! "Restore" has nothing to do with something maintaining or keeping it's "originality". You might want to consider going back in history to argue and change those definitions. I can assure you they were established in the English language LONG before I was born. I had absolutely nothing to do with their inception!

Quote:

---

Dom- your never gonna sell any of your cars anyhow- so? And we'd have to pay all the import costs too- to get them back in the states where they belong!

And to Dave- You have to be a little "special" to do what you do. I could never possess the amount of patience that you have to have to do what you have done-

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

First off let me start by saying, you single handedly brought us to this definition discussion. Secondly, I am well aware of what the definitions are but wanted to point out that their usage varies.

So using your definitions:

(Definition of Restore: return to its original or usable and functioning condition.)
So what did you restore. Restore the finish of the car, restore the shine to the paint, restore working power and function to non functioning parts, restore the appearance, etc etc.

(Definition of Modification: alteration - the act of making something different.)
So what does modified refer to? Modified using parts that did not come on the car?? For instance, in discussing the flat unfolded carpet you replied "They are accurate reproductions but we never say they are original. They are original IN APPEARANCE."- So technically since this was not an original part of the car you did not restor it, but rather replaced it. Is it now modified according to your very strict definition?
Or can we imply that the understanding of the words "to restore a car" is generally meant to bring back in appearance what was originally there. I think the honest intent is in general appearance. Otherwise buying a replacement carpet instead of restoring the original (to the car) carpet would be considered modified.

This was my point earily. The definitions are understood but how they are applied is still up to opinion. So when you blasted someone for saying something was "over-restored" and got on your soap box to educate us all you opened the conversation up for debate, thus taking all of us off course. And for the record I believe 99% of us here understand what someone means when they say over-restored. In most cases they are saying to bring back to an original look in appearance with some deviations for personal preference to improve the car. Maybe a better quality paint job, maybe a nicer carpet that doesnt fade with UV rays, or a dash pad that doesn't crack after a year in the sun. It is personal taste on what the perceived improvement is. However, the OP was not saying I want to over restore the car with glass packs, shag carpet, and fuzzy dice. Im sure that was not his intent. I think he just wanted to say, will I get the most resale by sticking 100% to what the factory did in appearance (paint dabs, decals, drips, overspray etc) or can I do things like spray color on the underside, use stainless steel brake lines and go base coat clear coat and what kind of money can I expect?

---

Thats the whole point of this post.

After reading all the responses, I suppose it doesnt matter much really.

I guess the potential market for an over restored car is bigger than for an OEM concourse resto.

However, when we are talking about RARE & EXPENSIVE cars...do the people that want those cars are always more inclined towards OEM correctness or not necessarily???

I know that for a clone car or a specially optrioned car but not necessarily mega rare or expensive over restoreing is the way to go.

But what about when you are talking about cars that surpass the 100k mark in value? Im taking about the 71 4406 shaker 4 speed bb go wing cuda, or the 69 HEMI charger, or lets say a cuda vert or something like a HEMI Daytona???? Should it be any different or not??? Will over restoring actually HURT cars like these???

---

Quote:

---

I'm curious to see if anyone has ever restored an OEM winner with a stealth 'over performance' drivetrain. I'm thinking no, but curious.

As I said, FAST has impacted restoration preferences. Yes PSMCR has been around longer but FAST, due to smart promotion, friendly media coverage, and incredible ETs, benefits considerably at internet car forums... where restoration plans are hatched.

FAST show cars have now branded the thought of 'over performance' on the mind. Those who plan on restoring beyond trailer ramp capabilities see 'over performance' as something to marry with 'over restored'.

It seems unless you're starting out definitively targeting high end collectors for unloading.... you'll likely end up over restoring.

Yes? No?

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

quote]


You might want to consider going back in history to argue and change those definitions. I can assure you they were established in the English language LONG before I was born. I had absolutely nothing to do with their inception!

---

Actually Dave, there is no "governing body" for the English language. Language is what we as a society make it. That is why you see new words added to dictionaries. For instance, you can look at old laws and see that "idiots" was a term for the mentally challenged. Today we use the new terminology and idiots applies to who people feel the term fits. it is no longer the "legal" term.

Quote:

---

"idiots" was a term for the mentally challenged.

---

You certainly don't have a problem relating to or translating that particular definition do you? Keep on spinning and twisting!!

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

I'm curious to see if anyone has ever restored an OEM winner with a stealth 'over performance' drivetrain. I'm thinking no, but curious.

As I said, FAST has impacted restoration preferences. Yes PSMCR has been around longer but FAST, due to smart promotion, friendly media coverage, and incredible ETs, benefits considerably at internet car forums... where restoration plans are hatched.

FAST show cars have now branded the thought of 'over performance' on the mind. Those who plan on restoring beyond trailer ramp capabilities see 'over performance' as something to marry with 'over restored'.

It seems unless you're starting out definitively targeting high end collectors for unloading.... you'll likely end up over restoring.

Yes? No?

---

As I stated in my post above, it all depends on who is buying on any given day and if there is competition for the car for sale.

As far as over performance drivetrains, I think that for most people they love it as long as it has the factory "look." That is what has made the F.A.S.T. cars so popular. When you think about it, most of us buy these cars out of a love for nostalgia. When we knew of or owned them new we typically wanted them to perform at there modified best but still wanted them to look stock. That was the street racers thing, let everybody you were racing think they were out of the box stock until the competition got the surprise in the 1/4 mile. I don't think that has really changed for the collector/buyer today. This is also why day 2 wheels, tachs, and a few other items are perfectly acceptable to most buyers. After all, they just bolt on anyway.

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

"idiots" was a term for the mentally challenged.

---

You certainly don't have a problem relating to or translating that particular definition do you? Keep on spinning and twisting!!

---

Twisting? Dave, you always are changing the subject in order to get away from yourself being wrong.

Are you really trying to say that definitions are static and that there is some sort of group that regulates them?

Let's see if you can stick with this or skirt the subject again.

Quote:

---

I really like that approach. In fact, with the rare cars I plan on putting the original engine blocks aside for safekeeping, and I will build the engines using a brand new block with stroker cranks and some ooomph to them.

I don't get it You're gonna spend all this time and money on OEM/RESTORE/OVER RESTORE [whatever you do] and you're gonna give the numbers match block/engine to the buyer so they can pay some more to make it right? Why bother???? Don't tell me your afraid to blow up the original block!


Im also steering towards over restoring them a little. Thats my personal taste on these cars.

Sounds like your mind is made up

I like to drive them without regrets, show them, and keep them looking nice and FRESH for as long as possible. I also want em to be realiable.

I hope that people find that appealing if it ever comes a time to sell.

---

Quote:

---

Twisting? Dave, you always are changing the subject in order to get away from yourself being wrong.

---

You are absolutely right! That must be what I am doing to hide my obvious pitfalls as they relate to the World of Restorations. Rather than just keep going back and forth here SomecArGuy, why not share with us the vehicles that you have in your portfolio!?! This is a Mopar Automobile Restoration forum right? I for one choose to "see" a Sermon rather than "hear" one any day of the week. You DO have a car or something associated with these opinions that you constantly argue about....right? Why not compare and show the results that have factored into your "correct" efforts versus mine? You can display how it should be done and I can show myself being "wrong" as usual! Are you Game SomeCarGuy or will you spin the challenge and come back with your usual irresolute rhetoric? This is your chance to really put me in my place and expose my true ignorance! A simple YES or NO will suffice. I'm ready when you are. Lets Go Big shooter!

Quote:

---

The best thing you can do is build the cars to a level that makes "You" happy.
If you build it as perfect and correct as you can, if you decide to sell it there will always be a buyer.

---

It still stands true today.

If you're a perfectionist (like Dave Walden ) that helps and is good thing.

Although I think Dave is going out of his way to keep raising the bar on what classifies as an O.E. restoration is to make it tougher on everyone else when your car is being judged.

If you build them right, there will always be a buyer, it's just a matter of getting the money you want out of it then.

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Twisting? Dave, you always are changing the subject in order to get away from yourself being wrong.

---

You are absolutely right! That must be what I am doing to hide my obvious pitfalls as they relate to the World of Restorations. Rather than just keep going back and forth here SomecArGuy, why not share with us the vehicles that you have in your portfolio!?! This is a Mopar Automobile Restoration forum right? I for one choose to "see" a Sermon rather than "hear" one any day of the week. You DO have a car or something associated with these opinions that you constantly argue about....right? Why not compare and show the results that have factored into your "correct" efforts versus mine? You can display how it should be done and I can show myself being "wrong" as usual! Are you Game SomeCarGuy or will you spin the challenge and come back with your usual irresolute rhetoric? This is your chance to really put me in my place and expose my true ignorance! A simple YES or NO will suffice. I'm ready when you are. Lets Go Big shooter!

---

A simple yes or no? From Dave Walden this comes?

I drive my cars Dave, you can't compete with me. You are the guy that had to have little baggies on your cars tires so they wouldn't get dirty, right? White '70 Challenger that isn't driven correct?

I modify, restore, rebuild, use, abuse, and generally enjoy my cars. If you think that anything you have done or will do with a car even remotely matters to me, you would be sadly mistaken. You know, just like always.

Quote:

---

Thanks Don! I have fun here. It gets silly sometimes but I don't let it get a "rise" out of me. I always thought that this part of the forum WAS actually related to Restoration and associated concepts/techniques?! Silly me...

---

Says the guy that proceeded to chastise others over definitions and other pointless stuff.

Does that mean that you are fed up again and are going to start your own board...again?

Thanks for the free entertainment Dave. I'm glad you are back. Really I am.