B1 Valve Gear Geometry ???
#638077
03/12/10 04:23 PM
03/12/10 04:23 PM
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sg66mopar
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Would you run these heads as is or buy the correct length intake valves and start over? It looks like the exhaust valves are pretty happy where they are but look at where the roller tip sits on the intake valve. The stands can't be shimmed up because then the springs/retainers will hit the under side of the rockers. Lash caps on the exhaust would make the valve tip heights about even but the ex. are about where they need to be already and that won't fix the intake valve problem. Intake Exhaust
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Re: B1 Valve Gear Geometry ???
[Re: supercomp]
#638080
03/12/10 06:21 PM
03/12/10 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Isn't there some blocks that go on there?
Yeah, there's normally a rocker stand at the end but I left it off so the rocker would show. The rest of the stands are in place and the shaft height is correct.
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Re: B1 Valve Gear Geometry ???
[Re: sg66mopar]
#638082
03/13/10 11:18 AM
03/13/10 11:18 AM
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,093 Long Beach, CA
Mike Swann
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Whats the spring PN, installed height of the E & I and how high do you intend to wind it up?
BTW, the ex looks pretty close.
8.30's @3400 lbs
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Re: B1 Valve Gear Geometry ???
[Re: Thumperdart]
#638085
03/13/10 04:01 PM
03/13/10 04:01 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
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Bob_Coomer
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Lash caps wont help...You need to correct th valve stem height problem first....This will require the head to have the seats machined correctly. Then machine the stands or shim them to get the correct geometry.... They are correct, no way will that work currently. The person who set the heads up should have checked that out IMO...
Last edited by Bob_Coomer; 03/13/10 04:02 PM.
[color:"red"]65 Hemi Belvedere coming soon [/color] [color:"#00FF00"]557" Indy engine 1.07 60ft 144mph in the 8th 2100 lbs package [/color]
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Re: B1 Valve Gear Geometry ???
[Re: Thumperdart]
#638087
03/13/10 04:21 PM
03/13/10 04:21 PM
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Lash caps on the intake would make the problem worse. If I put them on the exhaust side they would get the valve stem heights closer but the exhausts are real close to right already. This morning I mocked up 1 intake and 1 exhaust with no springs installed so I could run the gear through it's travel easily and take some measurements. The intake rollers get pretty close to centered on the valve tip at somewhere over half travel. Not right in my opinion but maybe workeable. If I can't get new valves here pretty fast I'll probably put it together this way and hope for the best 'til next season. The exhaust valves are .100 shorter than the intakes. I think they are just about right as is so if I can run them without lash caps they will probably be OK. If I was to run it this way it would mean two different length pushrods. If I can get the shorter intake valves that'll mean I have a brand new set of 5.50" long, 11/32" stem, 2.40" diameter titanium intake valves that I'm into around $1000 for sale. Anybody interested? Shimming the stands up probably won't work. As the shafts move up they get closer to the spring and retainer which eventually causes them to rub at the rocker radius and from prior experience I can tell you that's NOT good. Also, that would still leave the problem of two different height valve tips and different length pushrods.
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Re: B1 Valve Gear Geometry ???
[Re: sg66mopar]
#638088
03/13/10 09:15 PM
03/13/10 09:15 PM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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well, that's a mess for sure. i'm curious about the valve spring installed height on both the intake and exhaust. can you tell us what it is currently...
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Re: B1 Valve Gear Geometry ???
[Re: camastomcat]
#638090
03/13/10 10:28 PM
03/13/10 10:28 PM
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DRAM, I'm going to measure that tomorrow. I broke both my pairs of Starrett dial calipers today. Had them since 1978! I'll set up everything and use a telescoping gauge and micrometer. My motor dude says the installed heights are both wrong. Tom, Scott says they've been sending them out this way for years with no problems, It's pretty hard to disregard what Mitchell says I need to do. Guy and Roy (Paola) have both been building serious race stuff for what, 40 years? Mitchell puts together 2000+ HP funny car motors that live as long as most bracket motors. Guy's a good personal friend and he just wants to see my stuff live.
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Re: B1 Valve Gear Geometry ???
[Re: go green]
#638094
03/14/10 09:03 AM
03/14/10 09:03 AM
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HardcoreB
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Quote:
That's not correct and I would not accept that "they have been building engine for XX amount of years and who are you to questions my experience" Bull crap.
#1 who cares what the installed height is ,if the valve length is wrong it will not work
#2 The intake is to long period .
#3 If they piled up the valve job so bad that the valve is .100 deep in the seat , they have no business selling heads. ( not to mention that you will have brutally bad air flow.
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Re: B1 Valve Gear Geometry ???
[Re: sg66mopar]
#638097
03/14/10 12:54 PM
03/14/10 12:54 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 778 Sherwood park, Alberta.
go green
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Quote:
Tom, Scott says they've been sending them out this way for years with no problems, .
Well then they should have no problem selling those valves to someone else.
If you say the only differance between the intake and exhaust length is .100" then I would judge by your pictures that you valve job is spot on.
They are probably doing this modification to give you a greater installed height so you can run more lift.
It would of been better to have the exhaust +.100 , and put a .100" shim under the rocker stands and call it macaroni.
Or maybe get the 5.40" intake and have the heads assembled in a few hours.
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Re: B1 Valve Gear Geometry ???
[Re: go green]
#638098
03/14/10 02:14 PM
03/14/10 02:14 PM
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OK Guys I appreciate the input. I also want to say my intention here was just to get an idea if it would be safe to run the heads this way. If I went to the head builder and said "fix this" I'm sure they would. All I want to do at this point is get it put together as cheaply and quickly as possible but so it'll live, and not miss any more of the season than I have to.
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Re: B1 Valve Gear Geometry ???
[Re: sg66mopar]
#638099
03/14/10 04:55 PM
03/14/10 04:55 PM
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HardcoreB
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Quote:
I also want to say my intention here was just to get an idea if it would be safe to run the heads this way.
No Sir, no way.
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Re: B1 Valve Gear Geometry ???
[Re: HardcoreB]
#638100
03/14/10 08:34 PM
03/14/10 08:34 PM
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Nice Scott Another happy customer
Remember in here some don't think you should have a Opinion.. sad fact..
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Re: B1 Valve Gear Geometry ???
[Re: sg66mopar]
#638101
03/14/10 11:49 PM
03/14/10 11:49 PM
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polyspheric
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Just for fun: 1. Changing the rocker height, stem height, lash cap etc. all change the geometry - they are not adjustments. 2. There is no "correct" valve length, only correct for a specific geo method (Miller, etc.), rocker ratio, and lobe height. 3. The position of the roller on the stem with correct geo only 1/32" from the edge will do less damage than centered by trashing the geo - which is what is advised several times here.
What to do: STOP. Set the geometry using the parts you have now. Assuming mid-lift is your target, the roller should begin on the stem edge closest to the shaft side, roll across the stem to center @ 25% lift, continue across to 50% lift at the far side, stop, and reverse, passing through 75% on center and reaching full lift at the same position as closed. If it does that, and the roller is too close to the near edge, you need to shorten both the stands and valves to separate them by the difference between the vertical stand position and stem axis. Too close to the far edge: raise both.
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: B1 Valve Gear Geometry ???
[Re: sg66mopar]
#638104
03/16/10 02:27 PM
03/16/10 02:27 PM
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In case anybody missed my "update" here it is again. Scott contacted me and Koffel's is having Manley make me the shorter intake valves that my motor "Guy" (inside joke ) wants. Still hoping to salvage a little bit of this season!
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