Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#62589
12/13/09 04:49 PM
12/13/09 04:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,575 The Netherlands
BigBlockMopar
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,575
The Netherlands
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Quote:
I'm considering sleeving my 440 to get the bore size down and make some serious power.Who makes the thickest sleeves?
Don't be such a fool man... Everyone knows you gotta double sleeve it for extra strength! I think Cometic even makes 'MLS', Multi Layered Sleeves
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: dodge_nut]
#62591
12/13/09 05:29 PM
12/13/09 05:29 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
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Hey Ghost, I'm not perfect either, nor right all the time. I gotten some really good posts from you, as well as some other members. Thanks for the "education without the BIAS", Ghost. Just remember we are all still "learning" and I'm no GURU. Hats off to you all. NOTE: I will try to answer your questions to the best of my ability.
your answers are based upon opinion, conjecture and theoretical modifications of builds written up in this (and maybe other) forum threads.
YOU HAVE NOT PROVIDED ANY PERSONAL QUANTITATIVE DATA FOR YOUR HYPOTHESES EITHER FROM DYNO OR DRAG STRIP PERFORMANCE NUMBERS.
Due to this, your answers are about as legitimate and trustworthy as half the people who put up "forum" knowledge due to stuff they read from other people, who have read from other people, who have actually done the work. 413's are not special blocks, its the owners of them who believe they are.
i guess if i had "GURU" or "MASTER" or some QUANTITATIVE title under my user name then I would be believed.. wouldn't pull the wool over anybodies eyes..
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: Greg55_99]
#62592
12/14/09 04:48 PM
12/14/09 04:48 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533 Indiana
Fury Fan
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2006
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Indiana
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Oh boy! Another 413 food fight! I can talk about motorhome 413's because I've got one and built it nearly 30 years ago. Here's a short list of things I pitched when I got my motor home 413:
Heads got swappped for 440 items. Intake from Weiand. Couldn't use the cam or even the cam sprocket because the MH 413 version I had used a gear driven cam that turned backwards. Rockers and pushrods. Water pump and housing. Balancer. Oil pan. Distributor and drive gear. Pistons. Exhaust manifolds.
Well, FWIW, you used an industrial 413, so yeah, most of it was useless for a streetcar engine.
If you had started with a passcar engine, like the OP asked about, you wouldn't have had to change a thing (unless you wanted to).
Parts I seek:
driver doorpanel, 65 Sport Fury, prefer black, needs to be 7-8 on 10 scale, might buy set
16" x 6" Dodge truck wheel(s), from early 70s?, takes 9" dogdish - need for a research job so cheaper is better.
69-73 C-body caliper brackets and/or splashields
Send a PM.
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: 62maxwgn]
#62594
12/15/09 08:40 PM
12/15/09 08:40 PM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Quote:
One more,in 65 Chrysler had a single 4bbl 413,rated at 360HP,10.10 comp,470 ft lbs torque,the 66 and later non HP 440's were rated at 350 horse,480 ft.lb torque. Even if you compare with a HP 440 at 375 horse,torque is still the same 480 ft.lbs,that's only 15hp and 10 ft.lbs of torque with 27 more cu.in.than the 413, with the old 516 heads and all three had the same comopression ratio.
good point. if you go buy hp/ci the 360hp the 413 made should equate to 383hp for the non-hp 440 with superior cylinder heads. seems the 440 is missing 33hp mabey that 225 \6 got it.
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: BigBlockMopar]
#62595
12/15/09 09:15 PM
12/15/09 09:15 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318 Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
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I've heard Andy is secretly working on a new book. Here's a sneak preview...
Just ribbin' ya Andy!
LMAO! I don't check this thread out for nearly a week and look what I miss! That was a good one, thanks for the laugh!
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
#62596
12/15/09 09:36 PM
12/15/09 09:36 PM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Quote:
Quote:
One more,in 65 Chrysler had a single 4bbl 413,rated at 360HP,10.10 comp,470 ft lbs torque,the 66 and later non HP 440's were rated at 350 horse,480 ft.lb torque. Even if you compare with a HP 440 at 375 horse,torque is still the same 480 ft.lbs,that's only 15hp and 10 ft.lbs of torque with 27 more cu.in.than the 413, with the old 516 heads and all three had the same comopression ratio.
good point. if you go buy hp/ci the 360hp the 413 made should equate to 383hp for the non-hp 440 with superior cylinder heads. seems the 440 is missing 33hp mabey that 225 \6 got it.
Two points:
1. The 360hp version of the 413 had a hotter cam than the 350hp 440. (The New Yorker 413 had a milder cam than either of them and a 340hp rating.)
2. In the 50's and 60's, advertised horsepower ratings were often more about marketing than real horsepower. One of the worst examples was a 1958 Ford 352 that was supposed to have 300 horsepower but only made 200 actual horsepower on an engine (not chassis) dyno.
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: 62maxwgn]
#62598
12/16/09 12:16 AM
12/16/09 12:16 AM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275 Desert Tracker
HYPER8oSoNic
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
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Quote:
One more,in 65 Chrysler had a single 4bbl 413,rated at 360HP,10.10 comp,470 ft lbs torque,the 66 and later non HP 440's were rated at 350 horse,480 ft.lb torque. Even if you compare with a HP 440 at 375 horse,torque is still the same 480 ft.lbs,that's only 15hp and 10 ft.lbs of torque with 27 more cu.in.than the 413, with the old 516 heads and all three had the same comopression ratio.
Correct on all accounts.
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids" "Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
#62600
12/16/09 12:22 AM
12/16/09 12:22 AM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275 Desert Tracker
HYPER8oSoNic
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
One more,in 65 Chrysler had a single 4bbl 413,rated at 360HP,10.10 comp,470 ft lbs torque,the 66 and later non HP 440's were rated at 350 horse,480 ft.lb torque. Even if you compare with a HP 440 at 375 horse,torque is still the same 480 ft.lbs,that's only 15hp and 10 ft.lbs of torque with 27 more cu.in.than the 413, with the old 516 heads and all three had the same comopression ratio.
good point. if you go buy hp/ci the 360hp the 413 made should equate to 383hp for the non-hp 440 with superior cylinder heads. seems the 440 is missing 33hp mabey that 225 \6 got it.
Two points:
1. The 360hp version of the 413 had a hotter cam than the 350hp 440. (The New Yorker 413 had a milder cam than either of them and a 340hp rating.)
2. In the 50's and 60's, advertised horsepower ratings were often more about marketing than real horsepower. One of the worst examples was a 1958 Ford 352 that was supposed to have 300 horsepower but only made 200 actual horsepower on an engine (not chassis) dyno.
Thank you for your input. You hit on the point that we were trying to "illustrate" to the forum. Great Tech!!!
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids" "Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: dirtybee]
#62601
12/16/09 12:36 AM
12/16/09 12:36 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,111 Bowie, MD
Reggie
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,111
Bowie, MD
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well i'm convinced. i'll be putting a chainsaw motor in my bee next weekend 'cause i wanna go REAL fast.
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: dodge_nut]
#62602
12/16/09 01:04 AM
12/16/09 01:04 AM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275 Desert Tracker
HYPER8oSoNic
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Hey Ghost, I'm not perfect either, nor right all the time. I gotten some really good posts from you, as well as some other members. Thanks for the "education without the BIAS", Ghost. Just remember we are all still "learning" and I'm no GURU. Hats off to you all. NOTE: I will try to answer your questions to the best of my ability.
your answers are based upon opinion, conjecture and theoretical modifications of builds written up in this (and maybe other) forum threads.
YOU HAVE NOT PROVIDED ANY PERSONAL QUANTITATIVE DATA FOR YOUR HYPOTHESES EITHER FROM DYNO OR DRAG STRIP PERFORMANCE NUMBERS.
Due to this, your answers are about as legitimate and trustworthy as half the people who put up "forum" knowledge due to stuff they read from other people, who have read from other people, who have actually done the work.
413's are not special blocks, its the owners of them who believe they are.
That is YOUR opinion, and by you posting it in this forum, we can either rebuke it or respect it. I do respect other opinions of this forum, however, when it comes to singiling out a mill to be the "ULTIMATE", I draw the line. AS I SAID EARLIER, in this forum, not EVERYBODY has a 440. There is definitely nothing wrong with the 440, it makes great power, is very streetable and in some chassis can be your worst nightmare, if you are lined up against it. I am speaking for the guys who do not have 440's but 413's. 413's can be made to run AS hard as a 440, built differently. It will definitely scare 440's enough not to pick on it either at the track or on the "street". 413's are definitely no slouches !!! ALL I am basically saying is, if you 440 guys want to pick on your "slightly younger 413 bretheren", you just might get shut down badly. They will definitely hold their own anywhere. I would watch who you'd pick a fight (run) with. AS for a DYNO or Personal data on the power output of the 413, don't need it!! The Ramcharger Race Club/Team, Dick Landy, Dick Maxwell, Al Eckstrand and nearly two dozen or more Chrysler Engineers/ Racers and Engine Builders provided enough race clinics, speed parts and technical info. so that WE WOULD NOT BE BICKERING ABOUT WHO'S THE SUPERIOR MILL. If that was the case, Mopar performance, again "FOR THE READING IMPAIRED", would not have GROUPED the 413 and the 440 in the SAME performance buildup menu. Enough said, Just run with what you have and be happy.
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids" "Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: HYPER8oSoNic]
#62604
12/16/09 01:21 AM
12/16/09 01:21 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,304 Northern Indiana
mr_belvedere
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,304
Northern Indiana
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if you 440 guys want to pick on your "slightly younger 413 bretheren",
I thought 413s were older than 440s......?
Seriously, can we get some kool-aid over here?
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: HYPER8oSoNic]
#62605
12/16/09 01:23 AM
12/16/09 01:23 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,304 Northern Indiana
mr_belvedere
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,304
Northern Indiana
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Quote:
I'm considering sleeving my 440 to get the bore size down and make some serious power. Who makes the thickest sleeves?
You would be better off stroking it. You would gain some more low-midrange torque in the below 4000 rpm range.
You do know the post you quoted is sarcasm, right?
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: HYPER8oSoNic]
#62606
12/16/09 01:35 AM
12/16/09 01:35 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318 Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
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Quote:
413's can be made to run AS hard as a 440, built differently.
Nobody's denying that. But that's an apples to oranges comparasin. I can build a turbo fwd 4cyl mopar that will spank a differently built 413 on the street and the whole way down the track. But that's an apples to oranges comparasin. All we're saying is the 440 will have a slight edge over AN IDENTICALLY BUILT 413 across the whole powerband. Nobody is saying the 413 won't make good power or that the 440 is the ultimate motor. As I said before, that difference is not likely to be much of anything on the drag strip or on the street. The 440 will have the slight edge in a perfect world. However in a perfect world motors are tuned to perfection, all drivers are pros and tracks are prepped amazingly. I don't know what it's like around you, but here 413's are as scarce as 361's and RB383's. Just seems to be none of them around, however I can find a 383, 400 or 440 if I hit up the classifieds.
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Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: dodge_nut]
#62607
12/16/09 01:38 AM
12/16/09 01:38 AM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275 Desert Tracker
HYPER8oSoNic
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
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Quote:
Quote:
Hey Ghost, I'm not perfect either, nor right all the time. I gotten some really good posts from you, as well as some other members. Thanks for the "education without the BIAS", Ghost. Just remember we are all still "learning" and I'm no GURU. Hats off to you all. NOTE: I will try to answer your questions to the best of my ability.
your answers are based upon opinion, conjecture and theoretical modifications of builds written up in this (and maybe other) forum threads.
YOU HAVE NOT PROVIDED ANY PERSONAL QUANTITATIVE DATA FOR YOUR HYPOTHESES EITHER FROM DYNO OR DRAG STRIP PERFORMANCE NUMBERS.
Due to this, your answers are about as legitimate and trustworthy as half the people who put up "forum" knowledge due to stuff they read from other people, who have read from other people, who have actually done the work.
413's are not special blocks, its the owners of them who believe they are.
By the way, you talk about timeslips. you had not indicated what chassis, you wanted to see the mill in. Secondly, as far as the 413's and MAX-WEDGE 413's, you can go to any HISTORICAL CHRYSLER PERFORMANCE WEBSITE and look up the info on 413 road tests and performance data. I do not use OTHER FORUMS to gather data. MY own personal experiences and data from Chrysler tech books, Direct Connection (now) Mopar Performance and constantly talking to local racers/builders as well as Chrysler Techs. MY opinions are not "gospel", but I CAN point you in the "right way" for more performance. If I am wrong, I do admit it. When I am right, I have info to back it up. Opinions I respect most, unless they either make no sense or you're trying to be an "irritant". If the latter, your wasting YOUR time.
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids" "Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
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