Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: BigBlockMopar]
#62489
12/11/09 08:00 PM
12/11/09 08:00 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714 Spokane Washington
ScottSmith_Harms
Mr Wizzard
|
Mr Wizzard
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
|
Quote:
Funky heads? Whatchoo talkin' 'bout?
Speaking of funky heads... Here's another non-special engine, the cheaper cousin' of the early Hemi;
There's a 57 Saratoga with one of those sitting here in Spokane, big ol' pink 4 door, basically a survivor with a couple isolated rust issues from way back. If he gets real on his price I might buy it, those old "Poly" Hemi's are freaking KEWL engines!
|
|
|
Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#62491
12/11/09 09:24 PM
12/11/09 09:24 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275 Desert Tracker
HYPER8oSoNic
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
|
Well thank you and I will make you THE official spokesperson for how to build a winning 440. Problem is you are no Dick Landy, Tom Hoover, Herb McCantless, Larry Shepard even Ray Barton. They would tell you every popular performance mill is worth building. 440's are most popular with ample cubes, but for a budget-minded person who has 413's the same rule applies on building but with a little more emphasis on torque. Torque is what get you out the "hole". Unless you leave above 3500 RPM, torque is king. As for the technical jargon, I believe and listen to the "old school" engine builders and racers. They know far more technical info. than myself, so I don't play around with knowledge, it is a shared resource when building engines, trannys or putting a car together.
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids" "Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
|
|
|
Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#62492
12/11/09 09:30 PM
12/11/09 09:30 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275 Desert Tracker
HYPER8oSoNic
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
|
Quote:
Quote:
I would consider a 413 (cheap to build in the long run, more torque where you need it low midrange)
How is a 413 cheap to build in the long run if the only way to get half decent piston is to go custom? Other than that every other aspect of the rebuild would cost the same as on a 440.
Quote:
I agree with some of of your thread, but a 600 anything I'd run a STEEL CRANK. As far as the small bore/small valves they are on the right path to produce TORQUE. Plus the flame travel across the piston is less meaning less chance of DETONATION. More torque in some way offsets horsepower at the lower and midrange of the rpm scale.
I challenge you to build a 413 that would beat an identically built 440 can on the strip or on the street. All this tech jargon is good stuff, in theory, but the real world has proven all that to not really make enough difference to affect your timeslip at the track. Detonation control isn't a big issue on a 440 if you know how to setup your engine and I don't think that 413 is going to make more torq in the bottom end, at least nothing that would show up on the butt dyno or the drag strip. The fact is the 413 isn't a bad engine, there's just no reason to run it over a 440. There are a couple 413 devotees on here who just don't want to hear the truth.
Some people just don't like history. On the subject of price, we all know stroker cranks cost MORE than pistons for a 413.
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids" "Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
|
|
|
Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: CokeBottleKid]
#62493
12/11/09 09:50 PM
12/11/09 09:50 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275 Desert Tracker
HYPER8oSoNic
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
|
Take your glasses off!! Correction in print: 440's are superior to 413's in SOME ways, 440's have their place on the street and the track, and so do 413's, youngster. Repeating, if there were no Ram-Induction, Max-Wedges or, Cross-Rams, there would be no Magnums, Commandos or Six Barrel/Six Packs. "RBs", and even some standard "B" mills, were weaned on hi-performance, multi-carb technology ("old school science").
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids" "Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
|
|
|
Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: dogdays]
#62494
12/11/09 09:59 PM
12/11/09 09:59 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275 Desert Tracker
HYPER8oSoNic
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
|
Quote:
No they are not special. They are in the "can't give it away" category. Also, 413s equally built with a 440 will always have less torque as torque is primarily determined by cubic inches. But what to do with a good 413 block? This is why I developed my recipe for a 472 built on a 413 nearly free block. Use the stock rods and a 4.15" stroker crank. Bore the engine to fit standard bore cast 383 pistons, the type with compression height about 1.83 or lower. Put it together, it is going to have to be balanced, should be close though. Use any set of open chamber cast iron heads, the 452s are nice. Use a camshaft with about 230 degrees of intake duration, we are building a torque motor. Use your favorite 440 intake.
If you do it right with home porting on the heads using the templates, you should end up with an honest 400 hp and 550 lb-ft of torque (guess-top dyno). This engine will outpull a similarly built 440 up to say 4500 rpm. Compression ratio will be around 9.5:1, pump gas friendly.
Or you can sell the 413 for 11 cents a pound.
R.
Torque rating is pretty close. Good recipe, great ingredients, but I would go a tad higher in compression. Thanks for the idea.
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids" "Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
|
|
|
Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: stumpy]
#62496
12/11/09 10:40 PM
12/11/09 10:40 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275 Desert Tracker
HYPER8oSoNic
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
|
Quote:
Hey hyper, 413s are old school has been motors. The reason they didn't keep making them is they weren't good enough to stick with. New engineering with the 426 wedge setup made them obsolete. The 62 dart in my sig picture, taken in 1966,is a cross ram 413 so I have experience. They are a great period piece for nostaliga but not for todays race builds. [/quote Thanks for the nostalgia bit "Stumpy", but I do like to combine "old school science" with "todays technology". If the motors back then were strong enough to run in the 12's and 11's back then, this day and age of improved cams, ignition and other engine parts will up the ante by least a full second or, better with CAREFUL techniques and simple but KEY BLUEPRINTING practices. That is what I am saying. Never throw away usefull piece. There was a time when "station wagons" did not fit it at the "strip". Anything can run!! Note: I know the rules for class racing very well, but to run the brackets I WOULD run a 413.
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids" "Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
|
|
|
Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: HYPER8oSoNic]
#62497
12/11/09 10:55 PM
12/11/09 10:55 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275 Desert Tracker
HYPER8oSoNic
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
|
The "so called" new engineering on the 426 Mill was simply a bore change and factory upgrades (stronger internals and valvetrain pieces) along with an increase in compression. Basic hot rod technology by Chrysler to increase power output. Same tech was apllied to the 440. Chrysler never really retired these motors, they were shifted over to the industial/truck division. 440 was the top engine due to it's cubes to power both cars and trucks to save money, as big engine evolution started going downhill due to the looming oil situation in the 70's. Otherwise we would have more choices again in engines.
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids" "Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
|
|
|
Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: stumpy]
#62498
12/11/09 11:05 PM
12/11/09 11:05 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275 Desert Tracker
HYPER8oSoNic
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
|
By the way, great looking car "Stumpy". Have not seen an actual "production looking" version in a long time. A great picture. Thanks for the memories.
+
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids" "Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
|
|
|
Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#62500
12/12/09 08:55 AM
12/12/09 08:55 AM
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Quote:
Quote:
I would consider a 413 (cheap to build in the long run, more torque where you need it low midrange)
How is a 413 cheap to build in the long run if the only way to get half decent piston is to go custom? Other than that every other aspect of the rebuild would cost the same as on a 440.
Quote:
I agree with some of of your thread, but a 600 anything I'd run a STEEL CRANK. As far as the small bore/small valves they are on the right path to produce TORQUE. Plus the flame travel across the piston is less meaning less chance of DETONATION. More torque in some way offsets horsepower at the lower and midrange of the rpm scale.
I challenge you to build a 413 that would beat an identically built 440 can on the strip or on the street. All this tech jargon is good stuff, in theory, but the real world has proven all that to not really make enough difference to affect your timeslip at the track. Detonation control isn't a big issue on a 440 if you know how to setup your engine and I don't think that 413 is going to make more torq in the bottom end, at least nothing that would show up on the butt dyno or the drag strip. The fact is the 413 isn't a bad engine, there's just no reason to run it over a 440. There are a couple 413 devotees on here who just don't want to hear the truth.
make that 3 Devotees (i think you and AndyF should try building one FIRST before you guys throw out blanket statements). can't build a 413 to go eh? lol. a pontiac 455 has a bore and stroke of 4.15" × 4.21". nobody can deney that in the day it was a wickedly strong engine. 413 has a 4.18" x 3.75" bore and stroke .030" larger bore then the pontiac 455. valve sizes are roughly the same too. I wager that cube for cube.. ie: stroke a 413 to a 4" stroke making 439cid (yes i know custom pistons blah, blah, blah). the way smaller bore 413 will make more horsepower & torque then the larger bore 440. thats a guarantee.
|
|
|
Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: dodge_nut]
#62502
12/12/09 09:58 AM
12/12/09 09:58 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275 Desert Tracker
HYPER8oSoNic
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
|
Once again I will say this SLOWLY FOR READING IMPAIRED. 440 are superior in SOME ways to the 413. As for you ALL OUT racers at the track and class racers, we all know cubic inches rule. I am not arguing that point, and respect what you do and bring to the technology table. My hat is off to you guys. The group I am talking about are the bracket racers/street machiners who want to run with what they have, instead of throwing good 413 blocks to the wayside. Some cannot afford to run 440's at the time and that is where my thread is directed, without your negative rhetoric shooting them down. Again 413's can be made to run very well if you have the time to build it and place it in the right chassis. As for 400's everbody thought that they were junkyard fodder until somebody used their noggin and str0ked them. Now, we have 400 stroker motors running harder than 440's. See my point, ANYTHING can be made to run, It just takes patience, innovation and good common sense. As for the term "youngster", I do apologize to all for the so called "put down", however if you knew about 413's back then, we would not be debating now would we. No, we would be sharing "speed secrets and building tips", to the young guns and the die hards who held on to their 30-40+ year old rides. My ending, encorage those who have less knowledge of what they are running 440's or OTHER SIZE Mopar mills. Maybe they just might surprise us all bringing a "new idea" to the forum. To the 440 guys, respect to you all, but don't knock down the lessser sibling motors. they have their place on the strip also.
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids" "Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
|
|
|
Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
#62503
12/12/09 10:01 AM
12/12/09 10:01 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275 Desert Tracker
HYPER8oSoNic
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
|
Ghost, you said it well man.
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids" "Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
|
|
|
Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: I go fast]
#62505
12/12/09 10:09 AM
12/12/09 10:09 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275 Desert Tracker
HYPER8oSoNic
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
|
Quote:
This sort of equates to which is better,a 360 or a 20 cu,in less 340.It's a personal choice and cost is a moot point because it's only one persons money,he can spend as he chooses.If you like a 413,build what you want,same goes for a 440.Actually it's nobody's business but your own.If any of you guys ever drove (and I mean ACTUALLY drove) a solid lifter 62 300H,you might have a slightly different outlook on a 413.
That IS what I am trying to say. Simply put thread without the "put down", Thanks again man.
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids" "Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
|
|
|
Re: Are 413 Engines really all that special?
[Re: HYPER8oSoNic]
#62507
12/12/09 10:17 AM
12/12/09 10:17 AM
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Quote:
Ghost, you said it well man.
my only regret is that i now single handedly raised the price of a 413 from scrap value to $1000 for a bare block LOL! i might add though that if this topic was about the 413 MAXI engine. this whole conversasion would have taking a drastically different direction. plus looks at all these stroker smallblock engines. 4.12" or 4.18" bores with 4" & 4.25" strokes. are these nay sayers gonna deny that those engines are not worth building either?
|
|
|
|
|