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0.800 lift on EZ heads #51510 01/20/08 02:20 AM 01/20/08 02:20 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 30,995 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 30,995 Oregon	Well it hasn't been easy and I'm still not done. Basically the EZ heads don't really like this much lift! The standard valve setup gives you about 1.900 installed height which isn't quite enough to get 0.800 lift. I went with a +0.050 retainer and a +0.050 lock to get to 2.00 but that combination made the rocker arm rub on the retainer. With a standard lock and some fudging around it looks like I can get setup at 1.975. The PSI springs I'm using coil bind at 1.100 so I should have room to get close to 0.800 lift. Here is a picture of the EZ heads with the cam at full lift. This cam has .830 gross lift so with lash it is about 0.800 net. 4123002-800_lift.jpg (628 downloads)

Re: 0.800 lift on EZ heads [Re: AndyF] #51511 01/20/08 02:27 AM 01/20/08 02:27 AM
Joined: May 2004 Posts: 617 Corvallis,OR 540CUDA super street
540CUDA super street Joined: May 2004 Posts: 617 Corvallis,OR	PRH 540,T-ram,-1's tagged and insured. 9.24et 146.13mph 1.30 60'3300#s

Re: 0.800 lift on EZ heads [Re: 540CUDA] #51512 01/20/08 03:28 AM 01/20/08 03:28 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 74,978 U.S.S.A. JohnRR I Win
JohnRR I Win Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 74,978 U.S.S.A.	Quote:

Re: 0.800 lift on EZ heads [Re: JohnRR] #51513 01/20/08 03:58 AM 01/20/08 03:58 AM
Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 633 NY/NJ DV8 mopar addict
DV8 mopar addict Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 633 NY/NJ	Whoaaa boy! That is steep! What ratio rocker are you using? ~S~ "The function of man is to live, not exist..."

Re: 0.800 lift on EZ heads [Re: AndyF] #51514 01/20/08 08:59 AM 01/20/08 08:59 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,020 Andrews,In. U.S.of A. 6 67_Satellite super stock
67_Satellite super stock 6 Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,020 Andrews,In. U.S.of A.	O.K., maybe I missed a previous post or something,but why so much lift? Is this just an exercise to find out how much is possible?

Re: 0.800 lift on EZ heads [Re: AndyF] #51515 01/20/08 10:26 AM 01/20/08 10:26 AM
Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,074 Wichita Kansas CH3NO2 super stock
CH3NO2 super stock Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,074 Wichita Kansas	What do they flow Andy? Engine by DeTar http://www.kansasbadman.com

Re: 0.800 lift on EZ heads [Re: DV8] #51516 01/20/08 12:23 PM 01/20/08 12:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 30,995 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 30,995 Oregon	Those are Jesel 1.70 ratio rocker arms. Here is a picture from the other side showing the pushrods. To clear this much lift we had to use a tapered pushrod. That still didn't clear so I had to set up the pushrods in a lathe and touch them up a little bit on the ends. Jesel makes a pushrod that clears but they cost about $30 each. 4123554-800_pushrod.jpg (419 downloads)

Re: 0.800 lift on EZ heads [Re: AndyF] #51517 01/20/08 01:52 PM 01/20/08 01:52 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 6,293 Rock Springs Bob_Coomer master
Bob_Coomer master Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 6,293 Rock Springs	I run the Jesel 1.7's on my -1 heads, I dont remember the pushrod being that close to the rocker, I also run standard ball on ball pushrods (Non Tapered 3/8) from Manton. Andy, Do you think this would help clearance problem? Im running bout .790 gross lift before lash. The way the cup style adjuster srews set in the recess, it might give added pushrod clearance over the ball cup style pushrods.

Re: 0.800 lift on EZ heads [Re: 67_Satellite] #51518 01/20/08 02:17 PM 01/20/08 02:17 PM
Joined: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,981 SE Michigan TS3303 top fuel
TS3303 top fuel Joined: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,981 SE Michigan	Quote: O.K., maybe I missed a previous post or something,but why so much lift? Is this just an exercise to find out how much is possible? is this an allout max horsepower headsup type engine? IMO opening the valve that far past the useable range of the intake port is a waste of energy, reduces durability, increases wear on the valve train. not worth the extra 2-5hp that you might get. springs will have a very short life.

Re: 0.800 lift on EZ heads [Re: AndyF] #51519 01/20/08 02:45 PM 01/20/08 02:45 PM
Joined: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,949 land of 10,000______'s B BDS871Cuda top fuel
BDS871Cuda top fuel B Joined: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,949 land of 10,000______'s	Quote: Well it hasn't been easy and I'm still not done. Basically the EZ heads don't really like this much lift! The standard valve setup gives you about 1.900 installed height which isn't quite enough to get 0.800 lift. I went with a +0.050 retainer and a +0.050 lock to get to 2.00 but that combination made the rocker arm rub on the retainer. With a standard lock and some fudging around it looks like I can get setup at 1.975. The PSI springs I'm using coil bind at 1.100 so I should have room to get close to 0.800 lift. Here is a picture of the EZ heads with the cam at full lift. This cam has .830 gross lift so with lash it is about 0.800 net. Andy, is this for a class that must use EZ heads? What's the info on this? Snap your neck, mega G-force launch, is all I want!

Re: 0.800 lift on EZ heads [Re: Bob_Coomer] #51520 01/20/08 03:00 PM 01/20/08 03:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 30,995 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 30,995 Oregon	I'd think the ball end pushrod type would have more clearance but it has other problems. Jesel is promoting the cup end pushrod design these days so that is what we went with on this motor. It does make it harder to find pushrods though. Smith Bros did some custom ends for me on this motor.

Re: 0.800 lift on EZ heads [Re: AndyF] #51521 01/26/08 09:10 PM 01/26/08 09:10 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 30,995 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 30,995 Oregon	I got the Jesel tool (made by DRC) so I can change the valve springs on the motor. I didn't think the short handle would have enough leverage for these 300 lb on the seat springs but it seems to work just fine. I might make some thin shims to protect the retainer when using this tool. I'm not too keen on marring up the retainers when they are under so much load. 4141292-spring_tool.jpg (334 downloads)

Re: 0.800 lift on EZ heads [Re: AndyF] #51522 01/26/08 10:24 PM 01/26/08 10:24 PM
Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI MR_P_BODY Master
MR_P_BODY Master Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI	Andy, is there enough flow at .800 to make it worth your while? I would have figured it stalled by then Its surprising that the tool is strong enough to pop the springs off, I have the same and on my W-9 I have to pull 4 springs per head to get to the head studs

Re: 0.800 lift on EZ heads [Re: MR_P_BODY] #51523 01/27/08 06:47 PM 01/27/08 06:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 30,995 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 30,995 Oregon	Well even if the flow doesn't increase at .800 lift the port will see more area under the curve since the valve will be open higher and longer. We'll see what the dyno says. Here is a shot showing a standard Ti retainer with a +0.050 lock. This gives me 1.985 installed height and the Jesel rocker arm clears. I might be able to run this setup since it is just a hair under the recommended 2.00 installed height. The springs coil bind at 1.100 so there would be 0.085 clearance at full lift. 4143499-installed.jpg (364 downloads)

Re: 0.800 lift on EZ heads [Re: AndyF] #51524 01/27/08 06:58 PM 01/27/08 06:58 PM
Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 43,127 Bend,OR USA C Cab_Burge I Win
Cab_Burge I Win C Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 43,127 Bend,OR USA	I think a lot of people forget that a running motor never sees the valve held open very long like a flow bench measure flow at. As Andy said when you lift the valve open more the motor has the opportunity to suck in more air than it does at a lower valve lift for the same duration Now when you introduce valve train components like the Jessel rocker system, single tapered pushrods and the exotic valve materials and super good valve springs why not bump the valves open more Isn't hopping up a motor basically about getting more air and fuel into the motor so it will make more power.(IE: heat via a controlled explosion) Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)

Re: 0.800 lift on EZ heads [Re: Cab_Burge] #51525 01/27/08 07:23 PM 01/27/08 07:23 PM
Joined: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,981 SE Michigan TS3303 top fuel
TS3303 top fuel Joined: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,981 SE Michigan	yes you may get more area under the curve by over lifting the valve than a cam with less lift but the same duration and ramp angles. I'm no cam/head expert but I would rather do it with duration and ramp angles. size max lift to the head flow and duration/ramp angles to the size of the engine. The same head on a 440 vs a 540 will want very different grinds and custom ground cams are not that much more money. Theres more than one way to skin a cat as they say. Sounds like a good test scenario for a magazine article.

Re: 0.800 lift on EZ heads [Re: AndyF] #51526 01/27/08 08:25 PM 01/27/08 08:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 970 Farmington Hills, Mich Chuck@Best_Machine super stock
Chuck@Best_Machine super stock Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 970 Farmington Hills, Mich	Quote; " We have also learned that low-lift flow (meaning anything below .400-inch valve lift in a Pro Stock engine with a .900-inch lift camshaft) is relatively unimportant. Think about the valve events in a racing engine: From the point when the valve first moves off its seat until it reaches mid-lift, the piston is either going the wrong way (that is, it is rising in the cylinder) or it's parked near TDC. The piston doesn't begin to move away from the combustion chamber with enough velocity to lower the pressure in the cylinder until the valve is nearly halfway open. Consequently it is high-lift flow that really matters in a drag racing engine." David Reher, from Reher-Morrison www.BestMachineRacing.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/Best-Machine-Racing-Engines/135175363204822 (248)987-6038

Re: 0.800 lift on EZ heads [Re: TS3303] #51527 01/27/08 11:11 PM 01/27/08 11:11 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 30,995 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 30,995 Oregon	I last ran this motor on the dyno with a Comp MM305 flat tappet cam. Next time on the dyno it will have a roller with about the same seat duration but a lot more lift. We'll see if it likes it or not. One thing I know for sure, it costs a bunch of money to step up like this. I've spent about $3000 so far and I still don't have it running yet. So the HP/$ ratio isn't so hot.

Re: 0.800 lift on EZ heads [Re: AndyF] #51528 01/28/08 12:22 AM 01/28/08 12:22 AM
Joined: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,981 SE Michigan TS3303 top fuel
TS3303 top fuel Joined: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,981 SE Michigan	That must be an old RM article, only .900 lift cam? David, Bruce, and Darrin have tested almost every combination and usually share most of their findings publicly. I would be interested to get his feedback on putting an extra .100 lift over max flow on one of their pro stock motors because you know they've tried every conceivable option. I could be wrong but I think theres more efficient ways to gain area on a head thats basically done at .700 than opening the valve .800+ Quote: So the HP/$ ratio isn't so hot. Andy when you figure this out please share

Re: 0.800 lift on EZ heads [Re: TS3303] #51529 01/28/08 02:06 AM 01/28/08 02:06 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 30,995 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 30,995 Oregon	Well PipeMax says I need .809 lift minimum to have peak hp at 6500 rpm and it recommends more lift than that. PipeMax does seem to like a lot of valve lift though and I don't fully understand the assumptions that went into that program. The engine builders that follow that program though seem to get pretty good results so I think it has to be treated with some respect.

Re: 0.800 lift on EZ heads [Re: AndyF] #51530 01/31/08 01:10 AM 01/31/08 01:10 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 30,995 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 30,995 Oregon	I got a set of Manley +.100 Ti retainers today and tried them. Bad news is they have the same 2.020 installed height as the Comp +0.050 retainers! (evidently the guys who design these things don't agree what standard is). Good news is that they have a different shape on the top so they clear the Jesel rocker arms. Not much clearance but at least I can see daylight. I need to double check the clearance with full spring load and then I'll snap some pictures. Maybe this setup with the Manley retainers will work. If not, I'll keep trying parts until I find something that works. I also figured out that if I mount up two of the spring removal tools on the same shaft the job goes a lot easier. Too bad Jesel doesn't sell the tool this way, it is a big time saver. 4152816-jeseltool.jpg (331 downloads) Last edited by AndyF; 02/16/08 03:32 PM.

Re: 0.800 lift on EZ heads [Re: AndyF] #51531 01/31/08 08:36 AM 01/31/08 08:36 AM
Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI MR_P_BODY Master
MR_P_BODY Master Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI	Quote: Well PipeMax says I need .809 lift minimum to have peak hp at 6500 rpm and it recommends more lift than that. PipeMax does seem to like a lot of valve lift though and I don't fully understand the assumptions that went into that program. The engine builders that follow that program though seem to get pretty good results so I think it has to be treated with some respect. Yeah when I run my pipemax program it always calls for a big lift, I have always figured its high but I've never tried their suggestion on lift(max)

Re: 0.800 lift on EZ heads [Re: MR_P_BODY] #51532 02/02/08 08:22 PM 02/02/08 08:22 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 30,995 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 30,995 Oregon	Here is a picture with the Manley +.100 retainers. Actually these Manley retainers are identical to the Comp +0.050 retainers except for the profile on the top part. They both provide an installed height of 2.020 inches when used with the +0.050 locks. The Comp retainers hit the Jesel rocker arms but these Manley retainers provide some clearance all around. It isn't a ton of clearance but it should be enough. 4160746-manley.jpg (305 downloads)

Re: 0.800 lift on EZ heads [Re: AndyF] #51533 02/02/08 09:46 PM 02/02/08 09:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 14,493 So. Burlington, Vt. F fast68plymouth I Live Here
fast68plymouth I Live Here F Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 14,493 So. Burlington, Vt.	Andy, i dont know if you covered this in an earlier post or not, but did you check to see how much difference there was in rocker ratio with the Jesel rockers between unloaded and loaded? as for the .800+ lift requirement to make peak power at 6500......i guess my first response would be.....where did it make peak power before with the .650 lift flat tappet cam? 68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads

Re: 0.800 lift on EZ heads [Re: fast68plymouth] #51534 02/03/08 04:36 PM 02/03/08 04:36 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 30,995 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 30,995 Oregon	I've checked the lift numbers with the triple valve springs and there doesn't seem to be much lift lost in comparison to a checking spring. The Jesel's appear to be right on the 1.70 ratio. Here is a picture of the final configuration of parts that I ended up with. Manley locks and Manley retainers did the trick. I ended up with 2.005 installed height and plenty of clearance for the rocker arms. I had to work my way thru a few hundred dollars worth of parts to find this combination but I guess that is good for the economy! 4163221-manley2.jpg (300 downloads)

Re: 0.800 lift on EZ heads [Re: AndyF] #51535 02/03/08 04:38 PM 02/03/08 04:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 30,995 Oregon A AndyF OP I Win
AndyF OP I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 30,995 Oregon	Just for reference, here is a picture that shows the parts used. PSI 1246 springs and the Manley retainers and locks. Manley retainers 23640-16 will work with Manley 221424-16 springs and the Manley 13198 locks to provide a 2.00 installed height setup that is good for 0.850 lift roller cams. Manley says the 424 spring is good for .880 lift but that seems to be pushing it. The Jesel rocker arm geometry is good up to a little over .900 lift and then it starts to run off the side of the valve. I'm not sure what rocker arms a guy would use if they wanted to run more lift that that. Guess that is a different problem to solve some day. 4163226-parts.jpg (264 downloads) Last edited by AndyF; 02/16/08 03:28 PM.

Re: 0.800 lift on EZ heads [Re: MR_P_BODY] #51536 02/03/08 09:16 PM 02/03/08 09:16 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,807 Mopar Country, Mi ccdave The Ultimate
ccdave The Ultimate Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,807 Mopar Country, Mi	Quote: Andy, is there enough flow at .800 to make it worth your while? I would have figured it stalled by then Its surprising that the tool is strong enough to pop the springs off, I have the same and on my W-9 I have to pull 4 springs per head to get to the head studs

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