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this thing should mph better? #466789 09/13/09 07:54 AM 09/13/09 07:54 AM
Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 39 ontario canada D dart443 OP member
dart443 OP member D Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 39 ontario canada	newbee 68 dart 440 ez headed hughes cam 613&626 250 256, 410 gear.ran yesterday 1.47 60 out the door at 11.26 119. what wrong with this combo

Re: this thing should mph better? [Re: dart443] #466790 09/13/09 08:28 AM 09/13/09 08:28 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 32,394 Q Quicktree I Win
Quicktree I Win Q Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 32,394	Welcome really need more info, tire size,converter,weight etc. 60' looks good it's not making top end HP unless theres a problem elsewhere.

Re: this thing should mph better? [Re: Quicktree] #466791 09/13/09 08:39 AM 09/13/09 08:39 AM
Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 39 ontario canada D dart443 OP member
dart443 OP member D Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 39 ontario canada	quicktree, 325 et streets,3500 stall, 3400 lbs me in.850 mighty demon,indy-2 manifold

Re: this thing should mph better? [Re: dart443] #466792 09/13/09 08:46 AM 09/13/09 08:46 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 32,394 Q Quicktree I Win
Quicktree I Win Q Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 32,394	looks like it's just not making the power it should. I would have a bigger converter but you can't complain about the 60'. check timing and see if you can borrow a bigger carb. play with shift points.

Re: this thing should mph better? [Re: Quicktree] #466793 09/13/09 08:47 AM 09/13/09 08:47 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 32,394 Q Quicktree I Win
Quicktree I Win Q Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 32,394	are the heads ported? if not that should be the next thing you do.

Re: this thing should mph better? [Re: Quicktree] #466794 09/13/09 08:50 AM 09/13/09 08:50 AM
Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 39 ontario canada D dart443 OP member
dart443 OP member D Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 39 ontario canada	the heads are ported. i tried shifting between 6500&7000 no change.

Re: this thing should mph better? [Re: dart443] #466795 09/13/09 08:54 AM 09/13/09 08:54 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 32,394 Q Quicktree I Win
Quicktree I Win Q Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 32,394	check and make sure the throttle is open all the way. you have 60' for mid 10s. if your sure about the igniton and timing I would be looking at the carb maybe.

Re: this thing should mph better? [Re: Quicktree] #466796 09/13/09 08:59 AM 09/13/09 08:59 AM
Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 39 ontario canada D dart443 OP member
dart443 OP member D Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 39 ontario canada	timing at 39 degrees ignition all msd no missfire

Re: this thing should mph better? [Re: dart443] #466797 09/13/09 09:10 AM 09/13/09 09:10 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 32,394 Q Quicktree I Win
Quicktree I Win Q Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 32,394	try 34-36 just to see what happens.

Re: this thing should mph better? [Re: Quicktree] #466798 09/13/09 09:14 AM 09/13/09 09:14 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 8,028 Tulsa OK Bad340fish master
Bad340fish master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 8,028 Tulsa OK	If all else is in line its time for leakdown and compression checks. 68 Barracuda Formula S 340

Re: this thing should mph better? [Re: Bad340fish] #466799 09/13/09 09:27 AM 09/13/09 09:27 AM
Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 39 ontario canada D dart443 OP member
dart443 OP member D Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 39 ontario canada	checked throttle,tried 34 no change, fresh motor.25passes

Re: this thing should mph better? [Re: dart443] #466800 09/13/09 09:39 AM 09/13/09 09:39 AM
Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 739 Florida 4 408Dust super stock
408Dust super stock 4 Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 739 Florida	Fuel system up to par? Have a fuel pressure gauge on it?

Re: this thing should mph better? [Re: dart443] #466801 09/13/09 09:41 AM 09/13/09 09:41 AM
Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 9,366 Lehigh Acres, Florida rickstershemi master
rickstershemi master Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 9,366 Lehigh Acres, Florida	Quote: newbee 68 dart 440 ez headed hughes cam 613&626 250 256, 410 gear.ran yesterday 1.47 60 out the door at 11.26 119. what wrong with this combo Actually I would be looking for a better ET with a 60' of 1.47.....119mph for an 11.26et is very good IMHO Rickster

Re: this thing should mph better? [Re: 408Dust] #466802 09/13/09 09:45 AM 09/13/09 09:45 AM
Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 39 ontario canada D dart443 OP member
dart443 OP member D Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 39 ontario canada	holley blue,fuel gauge under hood set at 7 lbs.is a blue pump enough volume?

Re: this thing should mph better? [Re: dart443] #466803 09/13/09 09:54 AM 09/13/09 09:54 AM
Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 1,522 Wisconsin G Garceau pro stock
Garceau pro stock G Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 1,522 Wisconsin	Whats the compression? Way too big a cam for a 3500 stall converter. Im guessing that cam doesnt really come on to 5500 or so. You have a 3500 stall converter and shifted at 6500 or 7K? Bump that converter up to 4500 or higher (need all the facts). By the time the engine is making power your half way down the track. 1.47 is not great 60, but may be tire limited. I think your combo is just too far apart on a few different areas.

Re: this thing should mph better? [Re: Garceau] #466804 09/13/09 10:02 AM 09/13/09 10:02 AM
Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 39 ontario canada D dart443 OP member
dart443 OP member D Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 39 ontario canada	compression 10.66,had the car on the chassis dyno peak torque at 5200 408

Re: this thing should mph better? [Re: dart443] #466805 09/13/09 10:04 AM 09/13/09 10:04 AM
Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 1,522 Wisconsin G Garceau pro stock
Garceau pro stock G Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 1,522 Wisconsin	I definatly think your combo is a bit out of sorts. I really dont like that carb. Definatly need a looser converter. As a side note, what are you trapping RPM at, and whats the diameter of your tires, and shift point. Have you checked the converters efficiency?

Re: this thing should mph better? [Re: rickstershemi] #466806 09/13/09 10:06 AM 09/13/09 10:06 AM
Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 1,522 Wisconsin G Garceau pro stock
Garceau pro stock G Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 1,522 Wisconsin	Quote: Quote: newbee 68 dart 440 ez headed hughes cam 613&626 250 256, 410 gear.ran yesterday 1.47 60 out the door at 11.26 119. what wrong with this combo Actually I would be looking for a better ET with a 60' of 1.47.....119mph for an 11.26et is very good IMHO Rickster I think its because the converter is so tight. I had to do this once in my dart. Broke a converter through a bone stock one in there. Ran 1/2 second slower and same if not a touch more MPH. Was so tight if I put it in gear it would stall without some fancy footwork.

Re: this thing should mph better? [Re: dart443] #466807 09/13/09 10:24 AM 09/13/09 10:24 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 16,928 NC 440Jim I Live Here
440Jim I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 16,928 NC	325 ET Street radials should be about 28" dia, with that 4.10 gear. I agree the sixty foot is good for the ET, my target sixty foot equation says that is what the following ET should be getting: Sixty = 0.12xET + 0.17 ET = (Sixty-0.17)/0.12 = 10.83 My other curve fits to general cars in this league inputing 119 mph gives 11.25, so the mph and ET are in line. More stall speed also improves ET during the shift recovery. Putting an 8" race converter around 5000 rpm would make it feel completely different. That really isn't very much duration (250), but with your converter and 10.6 CR that is fine. Is that a roller cam? IMO, to take advantage of the heads (assuming decent port work) and the Indy MW intake, you would need to step up the converter and cam, limited by CR. 1993 Daytona, 5.50 at 130mph (1/8) 1.19 sixty ft (PG). Link to 572 B1 - Part 1

Re: this thing should mph better? [Re: 440Jim] #466808 09/13/09 10:33 AM 09/13/09 10:33 AM
Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 39 ontario canada D dart443 OP member
dart443 OP member D Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 39 ontario canada	440jim its a solid flat,do you think i am maxad out with this cam and convertor

Re: this thing should mph better? [Re: dart443] #466809 09/13/09 12:32 PM 09/13/09 12:32 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually B BradH Taking time off to work on my car
BradH Taking time off to work on my car B Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually	Which model of Mighty Demon 850 (downleg or annular boosters)? Has it been tuned at all, or is it "out of the box"? When you say the heads have been ported, are they still the standard runner size or did they get opened up to MW size? And maybe I missed it, but what type & size headers do you have? What RPM are you turning going through the traps?

Re: this thing should mph better? [Re: BradH] #466810 09/13/09 12:44 PM 09/13/09 12:44 PM
Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 39 ontario canada D dart443 OP member
dart443 OP member D Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 39 ontario canada	annular boosters 80 90 jets stock air bleeds,ported to max wedge,tti 2 inch

Re: this thing should mph better? [Re: dart443] #466811 09/13/09 01:21 PM 09/13/09 01:21 PM
Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 43,214 Bend,OR USA C Cab_Burge I Win
Cab_Burge I Win C Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 43,214 Bend,OR USA	I think the Holley blue pump is the problem Been there done that Put a 250 or bigger pump on it My Duster with a set of Eddy RPM standard port heads(518C.I., 10.29to1 comp ratio) and a bigger cam with similar weight(3430 with me in it) runs 10:40 at 128.+ MPH with a 10 inch converter and 3:73 gears with 315x60x15 ET Street Rdials I had a Magnafuel 275 pump on it and I could not jet the carbs up enough to slow the car down, I switch to a Magnafuel 300 pump and it slowed down and made the AFR go rich with the same jetting that the car ran 128.+ mph this is a street & strip car ran with the exhaust on, air cleaner on and on pump gas Last edited by Cab_Burge; 09/13/09 08:10 PM. Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)

Re: this thing should mph better? [Re: Cab_Burge] #466812 09/13/09 02:19 PM 09/13/09 02:19 PM
Joined: Mar 2008 Posts: 5,746 Ontario, Canada Dodgem master
Dodgem master Joined: Mar 2008 Posts: 5,746 Ontario, Canada	I'm almost think it is fuel too! he left at low RPM first pass bogged 1.57 short and with a 11.3 went 120 then next run he does not bog went 1.47 short and 11.26 @ 119??? When I have a bad 60 the pick up a 1/10th in the 60 next round I usually gain .2 quarter and a mph or two?? It's almost like the better he launches the less it pulls??

Re: this thing should mph better? [Re: Dodgem] #466813 09/13/09 03:26 PM 09/13/09 03:26 PM
Joined: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,260 Netherlands 72Challenger pro stock
72Challenger pro stock Joined: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,260 Netherlands	I would guess it would pick up ET when you get bigger in the fuel pump, carb and convertor department. Your 60ft tells to run high 10's so for your launch the convertor can't be bad but the cam would like you to be sooner at higher rpms I guess. So basicly as most others suggested '

Re: this thing should mph better? [Re: dart443] #466814 09/13/09 05:07 PM 09/13/09 05:07 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually B BradH Taking time off to work on my car
BradH Taking time off to work on my car B Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually	Various thoughts here... - it may be a fuel supply issue, but I think it's more likely a combination issue - Max Wedge-size Indy heads on 440-ish combinations don't work well from what I've been seeing, unless you spin the snot outta 'em (and your cam and intake choice don't suit that approach) - Demon 850 annular carb is an odd beast... pulls a lot of fuel through those boosters down low, then seems to choke at higher rpm

Re: this thing should mph better? [Re: BradH] #466815 09/13/09 05:10 PM 09/13/09 05:10 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 32,394 Q Quicktree I Win
Quicktree I Win Q Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 32,394	Quote: Various thoughts here... - it may be a fuel supply issue, but I think it's more likely a combination issue - Max Wedge-size Indy heads on 440-ish combinations don't work well from what I've been seeing, unless you spin the snot outta 'em (and your cam and intake choice don't suit that approach) - Demon 850 annular carb is an odd beast... pulls a lot of fuel through those boosters down low, then seems to choke at higher rpm

Re: this thing should mph better? [Re: dart443] #466816 09/13/09 07:14 PM 09/13/09 07:14 PM
Joined: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,949 land of 10,000______'s B BDS871Cuda top fuel
BDS871Cuda top fuel B Joined: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,949 land of 10,000______'s	Quote: the heads are ported. i tried shifting between 6500&7000 no change. How about shifting it from 5900 to 6400. Short shifting can do wonders at times. I would think a 4500 stall but your 60 is good. I think the 825 Race Demon would be a better carb. What is the RPM at the traps? To me, it seems like a top end thing. Out of power in the high rpm range? Maybe a 3.90 gear would be better. Just some Ideas. Snap your neck, mega G-force launch, is all I want!

Re: this thing should mph better? [Re: dart443] #466817 09/13/09 08:18 PM 09/13/09 08:18 PM
Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 43,214 Bend,OR USA C Cab_Burge I Win
Cab_Burge I Win C Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 43,214 Bend,OR USA	Before I would change anything I would try and figure out what the main problem is I would(if you can) take it back to the track and jet it up to see if you can jet it fat enough to slow the 1/4 MPH down, if you can't fix that first If you can jet it up enough to slow it down then your on your own on whats wrong and what to fix Never give up, you know there is a problem, thats the easy part usually, figuring out what is causing it can be the hard part Let us know what you find and do Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)

Re: this thing should mph better? [Re: Cab_Burge] #466818 09/13/09 08:29 PM 09/13/09 08:29 PM
Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 39 ontario canada D dart443 OP member
dart443 OP member D Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 39 ontario canada	thanx for all the replies, ill be going back in two weeks,

Re: this thing should mph better? [Re: dart443] #466819 09/13/09 10:05 PM 09/13/09 10:05 PM
Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 1,522 Wisconsin G Garceau pro stock
Garceau pro stock G Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 1,522 Wisconsin	Everyone is always down on the holley blue. I think people forget it was the standard forever. Lots of them running much faster vehicles than this guy has. Not to say its not going bad. Hell I used to run 9.2s with a carter electric.

Re: this thing should mph better? [Re: dart443] #466820 09/14/09 01:22 AM 09/14/09 01:22 AM
Joined: May 2008 Posts: 5,399 Aurora, Colorado 451Mopar master
451Mopar master Joined: May 2008 Posts: 5,399 Aurora, Colorado	Quote: newbee 68 dart 440 ez headed hughes cam 613&626 250 256, 410 gear.ran yesterday 1.47 60 out the door at 11.26 119. what wrong with this combo I think with the dual plane intake, you really need a larger carb. My 451 with a 252/252 cam, 0.613" lift was using a M1 single plane intake, a 1" open spacer, and a Holley HP 1,000 cfm carb. Before I got the HP carb, I ran a Holley 850, and I had to really richen it to tune it, and this is at Denvers 5,800 ft altitude. The 1,000 cfm carb was jetted pretty close out of the box and the car was faster by about 0.2 second, and a few MPH. I am not sure what altitude you are racing at, but the altitude here in Denver really slows my car down. The lowest altitude I have run at was Las Vegas, and the car wan 11.80's @ 115 MPH. Not great, but it is a #4,150 street car and I launch pretty easy for traction reasons stock suspension, with the large torsen bars, so not much weight transfer or traction.

Re: this thing should mph better? [Re: dart443] #466821 09/14/09 10:33 AM 09/14/09 10:33 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 16,928 NC 440Jim I Live Here
440Jim I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 16,928 NC	Quote: indy-2 manifold If that is the Indy 440-2 intake, it is a single plane, max-wedge ports, 4150 single four barrel.

Re: this thing should mph better? [Re: dart443] #466822 09/14/09 11:02 AM 09/14/09 11:02 AM
Joined: Feb 2006 Posts: 351 michigan 64ssmax enthusiast
64ssmax enthusiast Joined: Feb 2006 Posts: 351 michigan	Quote: compression 10.66,had the car on the chassis dyno peak torque at 5200 408 1.More compression works wonders on mopars. 2.What is the cam installed at? 3.Never liked any of demon carbs. borrow a different brand. 4.Call ATI and talk to tech dept. ask them what convertor might be needed. 5.I would think shifting anything over 6500 with this combo the tongue is hanging out of the car. lots of good advice from previous replys. "Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end"

Re: this thing should mph better? [Re: 440Jim] #466823 09/14/09 11:24 AM 09/14/09 11:24 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually B BradH Taking time off to work on my car
BradH Taking time off to work on my car B Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually	Quote: Quote: indy-2 manifold If that is the Indy 440-2 intake, it is a single plane, max-wedge ports, 4150 single four barrel. Ooops... I was thinking the same thing ("-2" = 2-plane). Still, if he does have that big single-plane intake, it's not helping the torque in the range where his cam is best suited. I'm actually surprised it 60-fts as well as it does w/ the rest of the parts mentioned.

Re: this thing should mph better? [Re: BradH] #466824 09/14/09 12:17 PM 09/14/09 12:17 PM
Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 39 ontario canada D dart443 OP member
dart443 OP member D Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 39 ontario canada	cam is installed at 104.5,single plane manifold

Re: this thing should mph better? [Re: dart443] #466825 09/14/09 01:27 PM 09/14/09 01:27 PM
Joined: Mar 2008 Posts: 5,746 Ontario, Canada Dodgem master
Dodgem master Joined: Mar 2008 Posts: 5,746 Ontario, Canada	He has a 3/8 fuel line and pick up which I thought should be larger. maybe something to the lean as even though it has pretty big jets it showed lean on the plugs a few races back? with that big intake and max wedge port EZ's I'd be shifting it 7200 to 7400!!

Re: this thing should mph better? [Re: dart443] #466826 09/14/09 04:18 PM 09/14/09 04:18 PM
Joined: May 2008 Posts: 5,399 Aurora, Colorado 451Mopar master
451Mopar master Joined: May 2008 Posts: 5,399 Aurora, Colorado	Quote: cam is installed at 104.5,single plane manifold Sorry, I mis-read the intake type. I was running a 250 GPH pump and 1/2" (-8 AN) fuel line. On the Chassis Dyno the 451 HP peak was at 6100 RPM, so I usually shifted at 6500 RPM.

Re: this thing should mph better? [Re: Dodgem] #466827 09/14/09 04:33 PM 09/14/09 04:33 PM
Joined: Oct 2004 Posts: 8,165 Left Coast B BobR master
BobR master B Joined: Oct 2004 Posts: 8,165 Left Coast	Quote: He has a 3/8 fuel line and pick up which I thought should be larger. maybe something to the lean as even though it has pretty big jets it showed lean on the plugs a few races back? with that big intake and max wedge port EZ's I'd be shifting it 7200 to 7400!! Needs more fuel. Start here before doing anything else.

Re: this thing should mph better? [Re: dart443] #466828 09/14/09 07:07 PM 09/14/09 07:07 PM
Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 4,316 Prospect, PA BSB67 master
BSB67 master Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 4,316 Prospect, PA	I suggest that you first check your fuel pressure going through the traps. Pump type and idle fuel pressure is not enough information to determine if you have adequate fuel delivery all of the way down the track.

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