Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP
[Re: BDS871Cuda]
#444081
08/20/09 11:11 PM
08/20/09 11:11 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,295 U.S.
moparniac
master
|
master
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,295
U.S.
|
I think 413source has the record for recalled parts...
Mopar Performance
|
|
|
Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP
[Re: BDS871Cuda]
#444082
08/20/09 11:28 PM
08/20/09 11:28 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,256 Salisbury North Carolina
8secDart
pro stock
|
pro stock
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,256
Salisbury North Carolina
|
Quote:
You guy's all crack me up
You can spend 20-30 grand or even more on your ride, but can't spend $1500 or a little more, for a good safe block. Think on the safty side of it.
Only if 440source would of made a block, right? But now they are having problems with the water pump housing they sell.
No most of the guys on here kill me.You think for one sec that the block is the answer,dream on.I have seen all new $60,000 Hemi's blow all to $hit on the dyno.Most people think they want 800 900 HP till they blast off one time.Guy's $1,500 to $2,000 more on a build is a hell of a lot of money.If you DONOT like stock blocks thats cool.But this guy asked the HP level.Give a answer and move on.Most of the people that answer haven't had a car running in years or their car runs in the 11s.It's the same old thing on here,come on.Lenny
|
|
|
Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP
[Re: 8secDart]
#444083
08/21/09 01:24 AM
08/21/09 01:24 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,377 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,377
Las Vegas
|
If the cost between buying/finding and machining a factory 400 block right and buying an aftermarket block is a deal breaker then Maybe just Maybe you need a new hobby, or you own a machine shop, or you like to use cheap parts. In our neck of the woods you will be spending $12-1500 just on finding and machining a stock block to make it a good useable piece. By them time you get foind a good one, have the mains done, lifter bores fixed and block filled, bored and honed.
I agree a good block is not a cure all it is simply the best possible foundation on which to build a race motor. Can you use a stock block, certainly I think we all have, heck my spare is a stock block deal, but it does not make 1050hp either. For a long time it WAS the only choice for most all of us. But now with the options out there I think it makes an aftermarket block almost a must in a 800+hp race motor. For years we have all been screaming for an "affordable" block, well we now have them and I hope we continue to but if guys refuse to spend $2500 for one I am willing to bet they wont stay around.
I have raced many, many stock block deals over the years and they served me well. IMO when we diceded to go 850+ hp I found the block to be to much of a liability to go that way anymore. I would not have an issue with a 700-800hp stock block deal but I would go in knowing that it is on a limited life span. I RACE my car, not just tell folks I have a race car. We put laps on the car in the search for more consistency and in hopes of getting better at this stuff. The peace of mind that we have the best possible quality parts we can have is to me worth the added expense. I guess it boils down to how big a deal $1000-1500 extra for the best foundation to start building on really is.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
|
|
|
Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#444084
08/21/09 07:52 AM
08/21/09 07:52 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,295 U.S.
moparniac
master
|
master
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,295
U.S.
|
I think you guys are looking at it all wrong!....... Most people start out with for an example lets say about $10,000 to spend on a engine and this is what they have to spend...... So I can see why someone wants to maximize there dollar I dont thinks its about $1500 more thing! I mean alot of guys love the sport and will do whatever to go racing
Last edited by *WeDgiE*; 08/21/09 07:54 AM.
Mopar Performance
|
|
|
Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP
[Re: moparniac]
#444086
08/21/09 09:12 AM
08/21/09 09:12 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 573 PA
68CudaB1
mopar
|
mopar
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 573
PA
|
Quote:
I think you guys are looking at it all wrong!....... Most people start out with for an example lets say about $10,000 to spend on a engine and this is what they have to spend...... So I can see why someone wants to maximize there dollar I dont thinks its about $1500 more thing! I mean alot of guys love the sport and will do whatever to go racing
I cant agree with you more....we went stock block for our first race motor because that was our budget at the time.....then when we had a bigger budget, we sold that motor to a friend and upgraded to alum block and MC heads......We ran 3-4 years with that low deck block running low 9's and never had a problem.....
|
|
|
Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP
[Re: Chris'sBarracuda]
#444087
08/21/09 09:28 AM
08/21/09 09:28 AM
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,165 Left Coast
BobR
master
|
master
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,165
Left Coast
|
Quote:
Just giving an option..And opinion here Bob..
Not saying who is right or wrong.
Am only going by what I have personally seen..
Chris.. [/quot
I appreciate that and I'm sorry if I sounded offensive but at some point it gets to be a safety issue. IMO those blocks were not engineered for the kind of power today's heads allow and when you talk about throwing nitrous on top if it things can get ugly real fast.
|
|
|
Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP
[Re: Hemiroid]
#444088
08/21/09 09:30 AM
08/21/09 09:30 AM
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,165 Left Coast
BobR
master
|
master
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,165
Left Coast
|
Quote:
If I had a 230 block laying around that already had been machined and had the caps and I was building a 600hp bracket motor I'd use it no problem. If I was starting from scratch and was looking to build 800+hp no way I'm using a 400 block.
There was a time when those blocks were used out of necessity. With all of the blocks now available that time has passed.
This is exactly my feeling.
|
|
|
Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP
[Re: Bob_Coomer]
#444090
08/21/09 09:40 AM
08/21/09 09:40 AM
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,165 Left Coast
BobR
master
|
master
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,165
Left Coast
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
That combo may likely last longer in a dragster than a heavy street car. Just like an 8 3/4..takes alot more grunting to move a 2 ton than a 1 ton.
How do you figure this? Were not talking 8 3/4 rears LOL The engine doesnt know what its in, or cares for that matter.
Its just common sense. If the crank is working harder to turn the shaft there will be more flexing... and thats what tears those blocks up.
In this scenario, both cars would have the same gearing and trans. The lighter car runs faster because the motor is doing less "work" to move it. The motor is subject to the laws of physics just like you or I. Thats all I'm saying.
Sorry My common sense must be broken How does it work harder, and make more stress? If the engine makes 800 hp, and you shift it a 7K in car A weighs 3800 lbs. Car be weighs 2000 lbs. The engine still makes 800hp, and the torque and power range doesnt change, so you shift it again at 7K Explain to me in lamens terms how it works harder to achieve the same power level? Were not looking at E/T time slips here, acceleration, 60 ft times...No increments. How does the engine live longer in the lighter car? If this were true they would never blow up on the dyno. The engine see's the load and tries to move it.
I have had some in depth college Physics classes, i dont see how weight of a vehicle or chassis setup can effect engine longevity.
Just a friendly debate here..
IMO vehicle size has nothing to due with the stability of a engine. Things like bearing clearance, and bore thickness, detonation does however.
Just think about what your trying to say.
If told you the weight of a vehicle in theory has little to do with max top end speed given a perfectly flat surface you would also think I am
Weight changes the load dynamics to some degree but maybe not much on the block. For instance, heavier cars require a stronger driveshaft, at any given power level, than lighter cars. Think of the crank as an extension of the driveshaft. Getting the mass into motion is the most stressful part of the run. Think about pushing a car. It will initially resist but as it begins to move it gets easier. I'm sure that's the reasoning being used but as far as the block goes I doubt if it matters much, if at all.
|
|
|
Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP
[Re: Bob_Coomer]
#444091
08/21/09 10:40 AM
08/21/09 10:40 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,840 Flint, Michigan
B1Fish540
master
|
master
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,840
Flint, Michigan
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
That combo may likely last longer in a dragster than a heavy street car. Just like an 8 3/4..takes alot more grunting to move a 2 ton than a 1 ton.
How do you figure this? Were not talking 8 3/4 rears LOL The engine doesnt know what its in, or cares for that matter.
Its just common sense. If the crank is working harder to turn the shaft there will be more flexing... and thats what tears those blocks up.
In this scenario, both cars would have the same gearing and trans. The lighter car runs faster because the motor is doing less "work" to move it. The motor is subject to the laws of physics just like you or I. Thats all I'm saying.
Sorry My common sense must be broken How does it work harder, and make more stress? If the engine makes 800 hp, and you shift it a 7K in car A weighs 3800 lbs. Car be weighs 2000 lbs. The engine still makes 800hp, and the torque and power range doesnt change, so you shift it again at 7K Explain to me in lamens terms how it works harder to achieve the same power level? Were not looking at E/T time slips here, acceleration, 60 ft times...No increments. How does the engine live longer in the lighter car? If this were true they would never blow up on the dyno. The engine see's the load and tries to move it.
I have had some in depth college Physics classes, i dont see how weight of a vehicle or chassis setup can effect engine longevity.
Just a friendly debate here..
IMO vehicle size has nothing to due with the stability of a engine. Things like bearing clearance, and bore thickness, detonation does however.
Just think about what your trying to say.
If told you the weight of a vehicle in theory has little to do with max top end speed given a perfectly flat surface you would also think I am
No problem, my point was pretty much what Bob suggested..the crank being an extention of the drive shaft. etc. And like he said most of the stress on the block would occur in getting the heavy car moving. The way i see it, the crank is always trying to exit the block from the forces of combustion. The only thing keeping it there are the main caps. If the crank encounters a bigger load, some of that torsional force will "deflect" putting stress on the mains and the block surrounding the mains. As an illustration, suppose you had a hand crank like on a Model T and as you were applying muscle you encounterd more compression than usual,the hand crank will deflect for a moment. Since the bottom end on a motor is basicly rigid even the smallest bit of deflection will be "felt" by the block, enabling a crack at the weakest point. I understand you and others do not believe any added torsional deflection is occuring in a heavy vs light car. Thats the part that just seems to make sense to me, i.e., there is more resistance in the heavier car..like in Newtons second law..that which is at rest tends to stay at rest..so more force is needed to get it in motion. And in my view, some of that force..even if very small, ends up being felt by the block.
|
|
|
Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP
[Re: Diego_Ted]
#444093
08/21/09 12:05 PM
08/21/09 12:05 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,624 Orange County, Ca.
B1CUDA
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,624
Orange County, Ca.
|
Ahhhhhhhhhhhh, don't listen to any of these guys. Put a fogger and a big plate system on it. You'll be fine, trust me. Now, for the real response....... When I did my B-1 motor (that now belongs to Al), I considered the ENTIRE combination, working in unison. Would I have made even more power on the dyno, if I had gone with a Mopar block (World's weren't available at the time), of course, but Mopar Siamese blocks are junk, if you want to make good power.(Attention bashers, I could care less about your comments, I am talking from personal experience) Indy Maxx? No, never anything Indy for me. I went with the KB because they are tried and true, plus, they are/were local, in case the block did get damaged. I could go on and on with this, but, here is the deal, If you want to go in the 8's, you need to consider the weight of the car, and how much power you will need, in order to get you there. Personally, I would be "puckered up" on a regualr basis, if I had a 800 HP B-1 motor, with a stock type block. They can certainly make power, but, you will end up spending a ton more money if you choose to go the stock block route. Be patient, save your money, and get a good block. I've been there and done that. I am not trying to toot my own horn, but, that motor that Al has, is a result of a TON of studying various parts, and getting the advice of some very knowledgeable people. P.S. Want to go in the 8's real quick? My pro stock hemi can be had for "just a little" more than a B-1 set-up.
|
|
|
Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP
[Re: supercomp]
#444097
08/22/09 12:22 PM
08/22/09 12:22 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,406 Diego-Town, CA
Diego_Ted
OP
master
|
OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,406
Diego-Town, CA
|
The posts below make me really want to consider using the block I have!!
1. Koffel has been building B1 400 block combos for a long time. He originally designed the B1 head to fit the 400 block because it was the only Mopar block that had a chance to handle the power. So if you follow their recommendations you should have a fighting chance at getting it to live.
2. If you want the answer from someone who has done more of these combos than anyone..IMO.. Call Scott Koffel..
The stuff Gecker has used..and is still using is stock 400 blocks.
I've known him for 25+ years and he has always used the low decks...Except when he had Hemis.. *NOTE* When Gecker had some catastrophic engine failures, it was always with the Hemi... rotating weight..
I've seen the 452" and 471" B1's go over 8500 rpm well over 600 runs a year when Gecker used to race on the National circuit.
3. Stock blocks will take alot of power. I have been sraying 350hp of nitrous through a about 750hp -1 motor for 3 years now @ 3250 lbs low 120's in 1/8th and it is still wanting more so I'm going to put about 25 lbs of boost to its a$$. and make about 1100rwhp. I have a freind making 1300rwhp with a stock bbc block, and we all know the chebbies can't out do us.
4. We run a b1 headed stock 400 block with BCR Main caps and girdle. It has over 500 runs without a rebuild. Still going strong Made 845hp on gas with stop under carb but has been on alcohol since the second week. Not trying to talk anyone into anything I'm just saying.
However others like B1 and AL make alot of sence too!!
I agree a good block is not a cure all it is simply the best possible foundation on which to build a race motor. Can you use a stock block, certainly I think we all have, heck my spare is a stock block deal, but it does not make 1050hp either. For a long time it WAS the only choice for most all of us. But now with the options out there I think it makes an aftermarket block almost a must in a 800+hp race motor. For years we have all been screaming for an "affordable" block, well we now have them and I hope we continue to but if guys refuse to spend $2500 for one I am willing to bet they wont stay around.
Last edited by Diego_Ted; 08/22/09 12:22 PM.
|
|
|
Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP
[Re: gregsdart]
#444098
08/22/09 02:13 PM
08/22/09 02:13 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,503 Illinois
CRE2004
super gas
|
super gas
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,503
Illinois
|
Quote:
The lowdeck allows a lighter rotating assembly. First off, it WILL be lighter, maybe not a ton when in an all aluminum block, but the rotating weight reduction alone is worth it, not to mention you have a touch more room for stuff in the engine bay. Pushrods get shorter, con rods get shorter,bearings get less stress, rod/stroke ratio improves for huge heads, sounds like enough to me with those items alone. We do need an aluminum low deck option.
I've done aluminum rod tall deck 572's with 2000g bobweights. Rod/Stroke ratio on a drag engine is almost an insignificant consideration. The short rod/long stroke combo (meaning higher side loading) with the pistons hanging way out the bottom of the cylinder are more of a concern than that. I'm not arguing, just wondering why everyone feels they need a low deck combo.
|
|
|
Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP
[Re: CRE2004]
#444099
08/22/09 08:26 PM
08/22/09 08:26 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,011 Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,011
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
|
Quote:
Quote:
The lowdeck allows a lighter rotating assembly. First off, it WILL be lighter, maybe not a ton when in an all aluminum block, but the rotating weight reduction alone is worth it, not to mention you have a touch more room for stuff in the engine bay. Pushrods get shorter, con rods get shorter,bearings get less stress, rod/stroke ratio improves for huge heads, sounds like enough to me with those items alone. We do need an aluminum low deck option.
I've done aluminum rod tall deck 572's with 2000g bobweights. Rod/Stroke ratio on a drag engine is almost an insignificant consideration. The short rod/long stroke combo (meaning higher side loading) with the pistons hanging way out the bottom of the cylinder are more of a concern than that. I'm not arguing, just wondering why everyone feels they need a low deck combo.
For a certain window of engine size, it just makes sense to me. Anything up to 4.25 stroke it is going to be a better setup. Maybe not enough to go selling a lot of tall deck stuff, but when starting from scratch it would be my choice.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
|
|
|
Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP
[Re: supercomp]
#444100
08/22/09 08:36 PM
08/22/09 08:36 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 705 Michigan
Hemiroid
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 705
Michigan
|
Quote:
We never run a power adder ever. Have you seen the price of a Word aluminum race block? $7800.00
World had their aluminum blocks on sale recently for $3,995
|
|
|
|
|