B1 Guys what is the max HP

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That combo may likely last longer in a dragster than a heavy street car. Just like an 8 3/4..takes alot more grunting to move a 2 ton than a 1 ton.

How do you figure this?
Were not talking 8 3/4 rears LOL
The engine doesnt know what its in, or cares for that matter.

Its just common sense. If the crank is working harder to turn the shaft there will be more flexing... and thats what tears those blocks up.

In this scenario, both cars would have the same gearing and trans. The lighter car runs faster because the motor is doing less "work" to move it. The motor is subject to the laws of physics just like you or I. Thats all I'm saying.

Sorry My common sense must be broken
How does it work harder, and make more stress?
If the engine makes 800 hp, and you shift it a 7K in car A weighs 3800 lbs.
Car be weighs 2000 lbs. The engine still makes 800hp, and the torque and power range doesnt change, so you shift it again at 7K
Explain to me in lamens terms how it works harder to achieve the same power level?
Were not looking at E/T time slips here, acceleration, 60 ft times...No increments.
How does the engine live longer in the lighter car?
If this were true they would never blow up on the dyno. The engine see's the load and tries to move it.

I have had some in depth college Physics classes, i dont see how weight of a vehicle or chassis setup can effect engine longevity.

Just a friendly debate here..

IMO vehicle size has nothing to due with the stability of a engine. Things like bearing clearance, and bore thickness, detonation does however.

Just think about what your trying to say.

If told you the weight of a vehicle in theory has little to do with max top end speed given a perfectly flat surface you would also think I am

No problem, my point was pretty much what Bob suggested..the crank being an extention of the drive shaft. etc. And like he said most of the stress on the block would occur in getting the heavy car moving. The way i see it, the crank is always trying to exit the block from the forces of combustion. The only thing keeping it there are the main caps. If the crank encounters a bigger load, some of that torsional force will "deflect" putting stress on the mains and the block surrounding the mains. As an illustration, suppose you had a hand crank like on a Model T and as you were applying muscle you encounterd more compression than usual,the hand crank will deflect for a moment. Since the bottom end on a motor is basicly rigid even the smallest bit of deflection will be "felt" by the block, enabling a crack at the weakest point. I understand you and others do not believe any added torsional deflection is occuring in a heavy vs light car. Thats the part that just seems to make sense to me, i.e., there is more resistance in the heavier car..like in Newtons second law..that which is at rest tends to stay at rest..so more force is needed to get it in motion. And in my view, some of that force..even if very small, ends up being felt by the block.

Posted By: Al_Alguire

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/20/09 07:17 PM

FWIW and for those who may not have known I had a 511" low deck B1 motor that went 9.0's at 3470lbs all motor with no issues, well other than the block not being real happy. Did break a cam as well but feces occurs. This was a good 400 block, had to buy and sonic check 7 to find a good one. It was filled, tall fill, had aluminum caps and I made an effort to keep the bobweight as low as possible. It worked well for what it was but not going to spend that kind of money again searching for a good block and the paying to have that one machined. I just dont need all the stuff lying around anymore. I do still have two good(sonic checked)230 blocks left though.

Posted By: 68CudaB1

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/20/09 07:26 PM

No problems, but of course they would work better w/ a bigger bore but for OOTB on a 400 low deck, IMO, they kick ass...

The OOTB Brodix deal comes w/ SS valves, Manley Nextek springs (good for up to .800 lift), etc....we utilized a .740" roller in our motor.

Rotating assembly was nothing special....Eagle Crank, Manley Rods, JE Pistons w/ basic 1/16 ring pack, etc. We used custom made billet main caps to get rid of the spacers on the girdle, this made the caps flush with girdle.....dont know if it helped but sounds good

IIRC, we did the entire motor for under $8K

Posted By: BB70DUSTER

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/20/09 07:49 PM

Suck it up and buy a block Ted... LOL

Its only money...

Posted By: joshking440

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/20/09 08:24 PM

I invested a good amount into my 400 block but my budget didnt allow anything else at the time, but even though the car is not running, i am going to start an aluminum kb low deck for the car.

I am going to try to make 1200hp with a turbo in using a stock block...the turbo guys say it will work for a while since the rpms are so low, but i am still pretty nervous!

Posted By: 8secDart

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/20/09 10:55 PM

You guys know how I see it.If it's a race car that is going to make 100 to 150 passes a year.Then yes get the better block.If the car will only see 40 passes a year,stock block all the way.You guys over do this stuff to death.Lenny

Posted By: Chris'sBarracuda

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/20/09 11:45 PM

If you want the answer from someone who has done more of these combos than anyone..IMO..
Call Scott Koffel..

The stuff Gecker has used..and is still using is stock 400 blocks.

I've known him for 25+ years and he has always used the low decks...Except when he had Hemis..

*NOTE* When Gecker had some catastrophic engine failures, it was always with the Hemi...

rotating weight..

I've seen the 452" and 471" B1's go over 8500 rpm well over 600 runs a year when Gecker used to race on the National circuit.

He is still using a 400 block now in the dragster, making over 930hp.

Yes, he has broke a few in his day, but has many, many runs on them.

So ask Koffel what they do to these things to make them last..

Chris..

Posted By: BobR

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/20/09 11:51 PM

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If you want the answer from someone who has done more of these combos than anyone..IMO..
Call Scott Koffel..

The stuff Gecker has used..and is still using is stock 400 blocks.

I've known him for 25+ years and he has always used the low decks...Except when he had Hemis..
*NOTE* When Gecker had some catastrophic engine failures, it was always with the Hemi... rotating weight..

I've seen the 452" and 471" B1's go over 8500 rpm well over 600 runs a year when Gecker used to race on the National circuit.

He is still using a 400 block now in the dragster, making over 930hp.
Yes, he has broke a few in his day, but has many, many runs on them.

So ask Koffel what they do to these things to make them last..

Chris..

Or you can spend 1500 bucks more and use the right stuff. Running over oil or cranks isn't on my bucket list.

Posted By: Chris'sBarracuda

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/20/09 11:58 PM

Just giving an option..And opinion here Bob..

Not saying who is right or wrong.

Am only going by what I have personally seen..

Chris..

Posted By: B1Fish540

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/21/09 12:02 AM

That combo may likely last longer in a dragster than a heavy street car. Just like an 8 3/4..takes alot more grunting to move a 2 ton than a 1 ton.

Posted By: Chris'sBarracuda

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/21/09 12:19 AM

Most of the 452" and 471" stuff was in the Shelby/Omni-Charger.. The Charger weighed about 2700#.

Chris..

Posted By: 70VcodeCoronetRT

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/21/09 12:20 AM

I just wish there were more low deck options. The indy max block is ok but $$$$$$$

Posted By: Hemiroid

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/21/09 01:03 AM

If I had a 230 block laying around that already had been machined and had the caps and I was building a 600hp bracket motor I'd use it no problem. If I was starting from scratch and was looking to build 800+hp no way I'm using a 400 block.

There was a time when those blocks were used out of necessity. With all of the blocks now available that time has passed.

Posted By: Bob_Coomer

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/21/09 01:41 AM

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That combo may likely last longer in a dragster than a heavy street car. Just like an 8 3/4..takes alot more grunting to move a 2 ton than a 1 ton.

How do you figure this?
Were not talking 8 3/4 rears LOL
The engine doesnt know what its in, or cares for that matter.

Posted By: Brian Hafliger

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/21/09 01:52 AM

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I should shoot for with a stock 400 block and expect it to live? I will have to go with some bic cubes because of the port size on my heads. I will half fill and use alum caps as per Koffel house recommedations. I will run Alky and hit it with some NOS, My goal is mid 8s in a 3k car.

Diego

Don't waste your time with a stock block. You WILL regret it!!

Posted By: B1Fish540

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/21/09 01:56 AM

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Quote:

That combo may likely last longer in a dragster than a heavy street car. Just like an 8 3/4..takes alot more grunting to move a 2 ton than a 1 ton.

How do you figure this?
Were not talking 8 3/4 rears LOL
The engine doesnt know what its in, or cares for that matter.

Its just common sense. If the crank is working harder to turn the shaft there will be more flexing... and thats what tears those blocks up.

In this scenario, both cars would have the same gearing and trans. The lighter car runs faster because the motor is doing less "work" to move it. The motor is subject to the laws of physics just like you or I. Thats all I'm saying.

Posted By: S/ST 3040

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/21/09 02:24 AM

Work is force, happening over a measured period of time.

The engine you describe does the same amount of "work"
in either car.......It just takes less time to get it done at
a lighter weight.

Ants work but, move small amounts over long periods of time.
Otherwise you'd have 500 HP ants.

Posted By: J_BODY

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/21/09 02:56 AM

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Ten years ago I had the chance to buy a 540 inch, low deck aluminum kb motor with B1mc heads that made over 1000 hp , and would push a local 2550 lb 9.90 car to 170 mph on the throttle stop! I am sorry I didn't figure out how to come up with the $$, and that same package appeals to me today. If you already have B1 heads, why not treat them to a block that will let them roar?

sounds like "Twist and Shout" leftovers.....

Paul split quite a few stock blocks before going KB.

Posted By: BDS871Cuda

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/21/09 03:02 AM

You guy's all crack me up

You can spend 20-30 grand or even more on
your ride, but can't spend $1500 or a little more,
for a good safe block. Think on the safty side of it.

Only if 440source would of made a block, right?
But now they are having problems with the
water pump housing they sell.

Posted By: moparniac

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/21/09 03:11 AM

I think 413source has the record for recalled parts...

Posted By: 8secDart

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/21/09 03:28 AM

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You guy's all crack me up

You can spend 20-30 grand or even more on
your ride, but can't spend $1500 or a little more,
for a good safe block. Think on the safty side of it.

Only if 440source would of made a block, right?
But now they are having problems with the
water pump housing they sell.

No most of the guys on here kill me.You think for one sec that the block is the answer,dream on.I have seen all new $60,000 Hemi's blow all to $hit on the dyno.Most people think they want 800 900 HP till they blast off one time.Guy's $1,500 to $2,000 more on a build is a hell of a lot of money.If you DONOT like stock blocks thats cool.But this guy asked the HP level.Give a answer and move on.Most of the people that answer haven't had a car running in years or their car runs in the 11s.It's the same old thing on here,come on.Lenny

Posted By: Al_Alguire

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/21/09 05:24 AM

If the cost between buying/finding and machining a factory 400 block right and buying an aftermarket block is a deal breaker then Maybe just Maybe you need a new hobby, or you own a machine shop, or you like to use cheap parts. In our neck of the woods you will be spending $12-1500 just on finding and machining a stock block to make it a good useable piece. By them time you get foind a good one, have the mains done, lifter bores fixed and block filled, bored and honed.

I agree a good block is not a cure all it is simply the best possible foundation on which to build a race motor. Can you use a stock block, certainly I think we all have, heck my spare is a stock block deal, but it does not make 1050hp either. For a long time it WAS the only choice for most all of us. But now with the options out there I think it makes an aftermarket block almost a must in a 800+hp race motor. For years we have all been screaming for an "affordable" block, well we now have them and I hope we continue to but if guys refuse to spend $2500 for one I am willing to bet they wont stay around.

I have raced many, many stock block deals over the years and they served me well. IMO when we diceded to go 850+ hp I found the block to be to much of a liability to go that way anymore. I would not have an issue with a 700-800hp stock block deal but I would go in knowing that it is on a limited life span. I RACE my car, not just tell folks I have a race car. We put laps on the car in the search for more consistency and in hopes of getting better at this stuff. The peace of mind that we have the best possible quality parts we can have is to me worth the added expense. I guess it boils down to how big a deal $1000-1500 extra for the best foundation to start building on really is.

Posted By: moparniac

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/21/09 11:52 AM

I think you guys are looking at it all wrong!....... Most people start out with for an example lets say about $10,000 to spend on a engine and this is what they have to spend...... So I can see why someone wants to maximize there dollar

I dont thinks its about $1500 more thing! I mean alot of guys love the sport and will do whatever to go racing

Posted By: Diego_Ted

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/21/09 01:10 PM

When you have as many irons is the fire (Mopars) as I do, I look to save or makeup $$$ where I can. I want to become a member of the 8sec club while I am still young!! LOL Now I know it will be in the mid to high 8s but that is cool. The car weighs 3000 and I figure I will need around 800hp to get me there. I already have a stock block and know Koffle has been getting it done with them for years. Another $1500 is not going to kill me and if a stock block will not live there is no point in putting the $$ there.

Diego

Posted By: 68CudaB1

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/21/09 01:12 PM

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I think you guys are looking at it all wrong!....... Most people start out with for an example lets say about $10,000 to spend on a engine and this is what they have to spend...... So I can see why someone wants to maximize there dollar I dont thinks its about $1500 more thing! I mean alot of guys love the sport and will do whatever to go racing

I cant agree with you more....we went stock block for our first race motor because that was our budget at the time.....then when we had a bigger budget, we sold that motor to a friend and upgraded to alum block and MC heads......We ran 3-4 years with that low deck block running low 9's and never had a problem.....

Posted By: BobR

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/21/09 01:28 PM

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Just giving an option..And opinion here Bob..

Not saying who is right or wrong.

Am only going by what I have personally seen..

Chris.. [/quot

I appreciate that and I'm sorry if I sounded offensive but at some point it gets to be a safety issue. IMO those blocks were not engineered for the kind of power today's heads allow and when you talk about throwing nitrous on top if it things can get ugly real fast.

Posted By: BobR

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/21/09 01:30 PM

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If I had a 230 block laying around that already had been machined and had the caps and I was building a 600hp bracket motor I'd use it no problem. If I was starting from scratch and was looking to build 800+hp no way I'm using a 400 block.

There was a time when those blocks were used out of necessity. With all of the blocks now available that time has passed.

This is exactly my feeling.

Posted By: sdaurity

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/21/09 01:38 PM

Stock blocks will take alot of power. I have been sraying 350hp of nitrous through a about 750hp -1 motor for 3 years now @ 3250 lbs low 120's in 1/8th and it is still wanting more so I'm going to put about 25 lbs of boost to its a$$. and make about 1100rwhp. I have a freind making 1300rwhp with a stock bbc block, and we all know the chebbies can't out do us.

Posted By: supercomp

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/21/09 03:31 PM

We run a b1 headed stock 400 block with BCR Main caps and girdle.
It has over 500 runs without a rebuild. Still going strong
Made 845hp on gas with stop under carb but has been on alcohol
since the second week. Not trying to talk anyone into anything
I'm just saying.

Posted By: B1CUDA

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/21/09 04:05 PM

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh, don't listen to any of these guys. Put a fogger and a big plate system on it. You'll be fine, trust me.

Now, for the real response.......
When I did my B-1 motor (that now belongs to Al), I considered the ENTIRE combination, working in unison. Would I have made even more power on the dyno, if I had gone with a Mopar block (World's weren't available at the time), of course, but Mopar Siamese blocks are junk, if you want to make good power.(Attention bashers, I could care less about your comments, I am talking from personal experience) Indy Maxx? No, never anything Indy for me. I went with the KB because they are tried and true, plus, they are/were local, in case the block did get damaged.
I could go on and on with this, but, here is the deal, If you want to go in the 8's, you need to consider the weight of the car, and how much power you will need, in order to get you there. Personally, I would be "puckered up" on a regualr basis, if I had a 800 HP B-1 motor, with a stock type block. They can certainly make power, but, you will end up spending a ton more money if you choose to go the stock block route. Be patient, save your money, and get a good block. I've been there and done that.

I am not trying to toot my own horn, but, that motor that Al has, is a result of a TON of studying various parts, and getting the advice of some very knowledgeable people.

P.S. Want to go in the 8's real quick? My pro stock hemi can be had for "just a little" more than a B-1 set-up.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/21/09 04:09 PM

Whether an engine sees more load from a heavy vehicle or a light vehicle is an interesting topic. I can see why people would argue that a heavy load puts more load on the engine but I also understand that 800 hp is 800 hp regardless of how much weight it is moving.

On the flip side, I can also think of a case where the lighter car puts more stress on an engine and that is just due to the fact that lighter cars accelerate quicker and therefore the engine revs faster. In a heavy car the engine might accelerate at 500 rpm/sec while in a rail the engine might acclerate at 1000 rpm/sec.

Posted By: Al_Alguire

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/21/09 04:10 PM

Quote:

P.S. Want to go in the 8's real quick? My pro stock hemi can be had for "just a little" more than a B-1 set-up.

Ruh Roh...You know we might like to try S/ST at 165

and then be able to run T/S with the same bullet

With NO BOTTLE

I'm just saying

As for my engine, well we may be calling Mr Pettis real soon to see if we can squeak a bit more out of the ole gal...

Posted By: supercomp

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/21/09 04:58 PM

We never run a power adder ever. Have you seen
the price of a Word aluminum race block? $7800.00

Posted By: Diego_Ted

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/22/09 04:22 PM

The posts below make me really want to consider using the block I have!!

1. Koffel has been building B1 400 block combos for a long time. He originally designed the B1 head to fit the 400 block because it was the only Mopar block that had a chance to handle the power. So if you follow their recommendations you should have a fighting chance at getting it to live.

2. If you want the answer from someone who has done more of these combos than anyone..IMO..
Call Scott Koffel..

The stuff Gecker has used..and is still using is stock 400 blocks.

I've known him for 25+ years and he has always used the low decks...Except when he had Hemis..
*NOTE* When Gecker had some catastrophic engine failures, it was always with the Hemi... rotating weight..

I've seen the 452" and 471" B1's go over 8500 rpm well over 600 runs a year when Gecker used to race on the National circuit.

3. Stock blocks will take alot of power. I have been sraying 350hp of nitrous through a about 750hp -1 motor for 3 years now @ 3250 lbs low 120's in 1/8th and it is still wanting more so I'm going to put about 25 lbs of boost to its a$$. and make about 1100rwhp. I have a freind making 1300rwhp with a stock bbc block, and we all know the chebbies can't out do us.

4. We run a b1 headed stock 400 block with BCR Main caps and girdle.
It has over 500 runs without a rebuild. Still going strong
Made 845hp on gas with stop under carb but has been on alcohol
since the second week. Not trying to talk anyone into anything
I'm just saying.

However others like B1 and AL make alot of sence too!!

I agree a good block is not a cure all it is simply the best possible foundation on which to build a race motor. Can you use a stock block, certainly I think we all have, heck my spare is a stock block deal, but it does not make 1050hp either. For a long time it WAS the only choice for most all of us. But now with the options out there I think it makes an aftermarket block almost a must in a 800+hp race motor. For years we have all been screaming for an "affordable" block, well we now have them and I hope we continue to but if guys refuse to spend $2500 for one I am willing to bet they wont stay around.

Posted By: CRE2004

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/22/09 06:13 PM

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The lowdeck allows a lighter rotating assembly. First off, it WILL be lighter, maybe not a ton when in an all aluminum block, but the rotating weight reduction alone is worth it, not to mention you have a touch more room for stuff in the engine bay. Pushrods get shorter, con rods get shorter,bearings get less stress, rod/stroke ratio improves for huge heads, sounds like enough to me with those items alone. We do need an aluminum low deck option.

I've done aluminum rod tall deck 572's with 2000g bobweights. Rod/Stroke ratio on a drag engine is almost an insignificant consideration. The short rod/long stroke combo (meaning higher side loading) with the pistons hanging way out the bottom of the cylinder are more of a concern than that. I'm not arguing, just wondering why everyone feels they need a low deck combo.

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/23/09 12:26 AM

Quote:

Quote:

The lowdeck allows a lighter rotating assembly. First off, it WILL be lighter, maybe not a ton when in an all aluminum block, but the rotating weight reduction alone is worth it, not to mention you have a touch more room for stuff in the engine bay. Pushrods get shorter, con rods get shorter,bearings get less stress, rod/stroke ratio improves for huge heads, sounds like enough to me with those items alone. We do need an aluminum low deck option.

I've done aluminum rod tall deck 572's with 2000g bobweights. Rod/Stroke ratio on a drag engine is almost an insignificant consideration. The short rod/long stroke combo (meaning higher side loading) with the pistons hanging way out the bottom of the cylinder are more of a concern than that. I'm not arguing, just wondering why everyone feels they need a low deck combo.

For a certain window of engine size, it just makes sense to me. Anything up to 4.25 stroke it is going to be a better setup. Maybe not enough to go selling a lot of tall deck stuff, but when starting from scratch it would be my choice.

Posted By: Hemiroid

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/23/09 12:36 AM

Quote:

We never run a power adder ever. Have you seen
the price of a Word aluminum race block? $7800.00

World had their aluminum blocks on sale recently for $3,995

Posted By: MoparBilly

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/23/09 02:41 AM

Quote:

P.S. Want to go in the 8's real quick? My pro stock hemi can be had for "just a little" more than a B-1 set-up.

Ted,
For what you'd spend on one of those high rpm, no torque primadonnas, You can build 4 Eddie Rpm headed, solid cammed 440s, spray and play all you want, go 8's with ease, and maybe hafta change oil and plugs about as often as Chris and Al change valvesprings.

Sure wished I could follow my own advice, and I wouldn't be sitting here screwing together a -1 headed 517 stockblock combo that I spent more on valvetrain and camshaft parts than I did on the whole topend of my Edelbrock 440.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/23/09 03:28 AM

Quote:

World had their aluminum blocks on sale recently for $3,995

it seems a lot of people had issues with those "discounted" blocks.

Posted By: Scott440

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/23/09 08:06 AM

not one but several questions in the original post, so it should be dissected.

what max hp a b1 head can support? here head mfrs tend to quote the max hp a person could reasonably attain without power-adders... let's see, edelbrock victor heads have supported over 1,200 hp, so an orig. b1 can do at least that...assume you pump the engine hard enough with crazy power adding (eg. turbos/gas/etc.)

so then the bottleneck isn't your head flow capacity, but other components. if your engine is oem, not race, and we asked the engineers who designed them about max power w/filler, main caps, etc. i believe they'd estimate 700-800hp, which btw the way is fine because an oem-based trans and differential probably isn't ready for 1200 anyway.

take it to 750 and call it a day. the engine masters contests show this level attained by oem big blocks all the time.

as for the people who insist on racing blocks, consider this person may already have the 400 short block assembled. he may not be able to transfer the internals himself. by the time he saves the money, buys the block, pays to transfer parts, sort it out, he might be forced to shift his financial resources to something non-car related...so yeah, cost matters.

if he pays 3000 for a racing block, he might as well boost the crap out of it to get his money's worth w/1800hp, then he'll need a $800 fuel delivery system(!) but his drivetrain wouldn't handle it, so he "might as well" get a nhra top fuel drivetrain for $20,000, add in safety gear and wait months for a shop to finish the car. the "might as well" logic is a slippery slope.

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/23/09 12:23 PM

Quote:

Quote:

P.S. Want to go in the 8's real quick? My pro stock hemi can be had for "just a little" more than a B-1 set-up.

Ted,
For what you'd spend on one of those high rpm, no torque primadonnas, You can build 4 Eddie Rpm headed, solid cammed 440s, spray and play all you want, go 8's with ease, and maybe hafta change oil and plugs about as often as Chris and Al change valvesprings.

Sure wished I could follow my own advice, and I wouldn't be sitting here screwing together a -1 headed 517 stockblock combo that I spent more on valvetrain and camshaft parts than I did on the whole topend of my Edelbrock 440.

Sounds like an addiction to speed to me!

Posted By: Al_Alguire

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/23/09 03:35 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Sure wished I could follow my own advice, and I wouldn't be sitting here screwing together a -1 headed 517 stockblock combo that I spent more on valvetrain and camshaft parts than I did on the whole topend of my Edelbrock 440.

Billy come on who you fooling. You were not happy spraying and running 8.90's in your old bullet and want more for the new one. I am sure you will get it and be happy with the mid 8's on the bottle with the new bullet as well as the added MPH in S/ST

Posted By: Bob_Coomer

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/23/09 03:50 PM

like some one else said.
At the 900hp (easier said than done) or (before in my case) most hit a wall on hp limit with a good effort Indy stuff..
if one built the same "good effort" engine using the B1 Original heads (not even M1MC's) One would expect to accomplish at least top hp in Indy's case and more.

And just because this "guy" or "that guy" makes great B1 power and making stock blocks live a happy life doesnt mean anyone can throw a engine together and do the same.
Its hard to act surprised or be upset when during the first season, it splits a cylinder wall or cracks the main webbing and thrashes the whole engine.

Posted By: Al_Alguire

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/23/09 05:20 PM

Does primadonna mean we are high maintenance

Posted By: B1CUDA

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/23/09 05:23 PM

Quote:

Does primadonna mean we are high maintenance

Could you pass the Grey Poupon?

Posted By: 440Jim

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/23/09 08:04 PM

Lots of good info posted (and some bench racing, and bickering).

IMO, if you keep it to 800 hp and stay away from the nitrous it will last a reasonable amount of time. But you have to find a block with good cylinders and change the main caps, and a girdle would fit your needs. A 511 CID is all you need (4.250" stroke, 4.375" bore).

But I can't argue with the benefit of spending $1000 more and having a World Products (MP) block.

$ 250 a good sonic checked 400 block (might cost more to find 1 of 7)
$ 400 normal machine work (bore, hone, deck, clean, etc).
$ 375 Aluminum main caps
$ 400 Machine and fit main caps
$ 200 ? Girdle
-----
$1625

Posted By: MoparBilly

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/23/09 08:17 PM

Quote:

like some one else said.
At the 900hp (easier said than done) or (before in my case) most hit a wall on hp limit with a good effort Indy stuff..
if one built the same "good effort" engine using the B1 Original heads (not even M1MC's) One would expect to accomplish at least top hp in Indy's case and more.

And just because this "guy" or "that guy" makes great B1 power and making stock blocks live a happy life doesnt mean anyone can throw a engine together and do the same.
Its hard to act surprised or be upset when during the first season, it splits a cylinder wall or cracks the main webbing and thrashes the whole engine.

Very good post, I think the combo used, cam timing, and state of tune would all have to be considered carefully to avoid beating the block up prematurely.

Quote:

Billy come on who you fooling. You were not happy spraying and running 8.90's in your old bullet and want more for the new one. I am sure you will get it and be happy with the mid 8's on the bottle with the new bullet as well as the added MPH in S/ST

Ok, Al...
Ya got me...I was trying the lie out on someone else before I tried to convince myself, but you and Greg shot that down pretty quick!! Not that I want to go much further in the 8's, but 129-131 in SST is quickly becoming a rough place to be!!

Quote:

"No torque primadonna", that's funny. I guess I have it all wrong, by using the very best Mopar engine available, with less torque, and more horsepower on a true 10.5 slick??
It's all good, I am in a position to play with this motor, but, have had bunches of B-1, 400 block combo's, before I could afford a KB block. Soooooooo, I thought I would throw in my , to try to share some of my experience with Ted.

Thanks Chris,
I thought I was out of practice, but I see I can still push the right buttons on occasion! I absolutely understand your decisions, and appreciate the effort to build a competitive peice, and share your experiences on the board. If that shot was a little low, I promise I'll aim higher next time.

Quote:

Does primadonna mean we are high maintenance?

"Sensitive", perhaps?

Posted By: B1CUDA

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/23/09 10:59 PM

Nahhh, Billy, I don't take any of this personal. I consider this type of banter part of this stupid car stuff that all of us are involved in. I swear, one of these days I am going to buy that killer fishing pole, and sell all of this stuff.(I am wayyyyyyyy too stupid to think clearly like that)

P.S. I might just let Ted borrow my Hemi, and go racing for the weekend in Arizona.

Posted By: Al_Alguire

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/23/09 11:54 PM

Hey I wanna borrow it and see what it can run in S/ST trim

Billy,You need to get that thing built and get back out there. Sensitive, we both know that aint true

I have no idea where anyone needs to be in this .90 stuff. I chose S/ST for a few reasons, most importatnly were the people I have met who run in the class. Yes my car is on the faster side for the class but I amnot sold it is a big advangtage. I have lost more rounds than i car to admit to 118-122mph cars. Just as hard for me to judge it as they are. One thing I have learned being the faster car is it forces the slower guys to dial hard and honest not holding any. That piece of info has been very helpful so far.

As for the engine. IMO Ted needs to do what makes Ted comfortable. Jim threw up some numbers and I am sure for his area are accurate, machine shop wise. But here is what I come up with for parts, dkirect for the companies websites.

Main Caps $350
CRE Girdle $450
From BCR(both) $799
Block filler $80

So at the best you have $800 in parts plus another $80 for the hardblock to do a tall fill. So we are inching in on $900 for parts. The using Jims numbers we have $1050+- for the block and machine work, around here you are looking at closer to $1500+ for that same work work, still assuming a $250 block. At any rate using the numbers I see $1950+ for a stock block deal. So you decide if that is an economical way to go..Oh yeah we have done nothing to correct lifter angles, or improve the oiling system. just trying to show that possibly the "savings" everyone is talking about with a stock block are not as big as some think...

Posted By: Bob_Coomer

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/24/09 12:02 AM

Quote:

Lots of good info posted (and some bench racing, and bickering).

IMO, if you keep it to 800 hp and stay away from the nitrous it will last a reasonable amount of time. But you have to find a block with good cylinders and change the main caps, and a girdle would fit your needs. A 511 CID is all you need (4.250" stroke, 4.375" bore).

But I can't argue with the benefit of spending $1000 more and having a World Products (MP) block.

$ 250 a good sonic checked 400 block (might cost more to find 1 of 7)
$ 400 normal machine work (bore, hone, deck, clean, etc).
$ 375 Aluminum main caps
$ 400 Machine and fit main caps
$ 200 ? Girdle
-----
$1625

Caps and Girdle from BCR is $800+ shipping.

440 Source Girdle is $279 Which include bolts.

So lets do some Math..
Say you locate a good "230" Block and get it for a steal at $200.

So..
-$200 Block
-$800BCR main girdle cap package
-$1625 for basic machine work as Jim Posted.
-$90 for Hard Block
-Say you have another $150 for additional labor, cam bearings installed, mag'n, stroker clearance, hard block filling etc

Now we have $2865 in this near 40 year old block.
Even if you had the block, and didnt inquire additional labor.
Thats still over $2500..
It doesnt make sense to have this money in a stock block, only to have it split a cylinder 3 seasons down the road and trash the whole engine..

IMO Girdle's, aluminum main caps, nor hard block seem to keep a block from splitting cylinders. I know this as pure fact not speculation.

Posted By: J_BODY

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/24/09 12:03 AM

...so is it safe to assume that the extra lbs for the steel world block (300lb) is a mute point vs the stock block at 700hp and up?

guess I should have proofread that one! sorry!!

Posted By: moparniac

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/24/09 12:26 AM

Who has the best deal on ieon race blocks (RB)

Posted By: camdog440

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/24/09 12:30 AM

Quote:

...so is it safe to assume that the 300 extra lbs for the steel world block is a mute point vs the stock block at 700hp and up?

What EXTRA 300 lbs? I think the World block weighs about 60 lbs more than a stock block.

Posted By: Bob_Coomer

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/24/09 12:34 AM

My World Hemi block breaks the 300 lbs barrier on the scales. So it could be in the 75-100lbs range.

But of the flip side, I know its plenty thick in key area's.

Posted By: 8secDart

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/24/09 12:40 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Lots of good info posted (and some bench racing, and bickering).

IMO, if you keep it to 800 hp and stay away from the nitrous it will last a reasonable amount of time. But you have to find a block with good cylinders and change the main caps, and a girdle would fit your needs. A 511 CID is all you need (4.250" stroke, 4.375" bore).

But I can't argue with the benefit of spending $1000 more and having a World Products (MP) block.

$ 250 a good sonic checked 400 block (might cost more to find 1 of 7)
$ 400 normal machine work (bore, hone, deck, clean, etc).
$ 375 Aluminum main caps
$ 400 Machine and fit main caps
$ 200 ? Girdle
-----
$1625

Caps and Girdle from BCR is $800+ shipping.
440 Source Girdle is $279 Which include bolts.

So lets do some Math..
Say you locate a good "230" Block and get it for a steal at $200.

So..
-$200 Block
-$800BCR main girdle cap package
-$1625 for basic machine work as Jim Posted.
-$90 for Hard Block
-Say you have another $150 for additional labor, cam bearings installed, mag'n, stroker clearance, hard block filling etc

Now we have $2865 in this near 40 year old block.
Even if you had the block, and didnt inquire additional labor.
Thats still over $2500..
It doesnt make sense to have this money in a stock block, only to have it split a cylinder 3 seasons down the road and trash the whole engine..

IMO Girdle's, aluminum main caps, nor hard block seem to keep a block from splitting cylinders. I know this as pure fact not speculation.

I'am glad I DONOT use all that junk.I might have $500 in a block ready to go.But,well,oh,well.Lenny

Posted By: B1satellite

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/24/09 12:44 AM

I really can't believe all of you have never built a decent motor making around 600 hp. And you think that a tall fill, aluminum caps, main girdle, and the likes is required to make another 150-200? Gimme some of that stuff you're smoking!

Posted By: Bob_Coomer

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/24/09 12:58 AM

Quote:

I really can't believe all of you have never built a decent motor making around 600 hp. And you think that a tall fill, aluminum caps, main girdle, and the likes is required to make another 150-200? Gimme some of that stuff you're smoking!

Fire it up and pass it this way, if you think "another 150-200hp" doesnt add stress to a stock block thats already at 600hp. Your 493 cube'd Template ported 906's that have shift point at 5700 rpms, is pretty diff from a B1 engine.
You guys do what you want, but seems about once a week or so someone is posting up blocks that has gave up the ghost..

were not talking about 493 inch enignes that has home ported Edelbrock RPM heads here.
Were talking about a stroker engine with B1's that doesnt seem to respond well to 6500 rpm shift points.
If turning a stock block 7400-7800 rpms doesnt seem to bother you, then go right ahead. I have built and run engine at this caliber. And the large head B1 heads like RPM.

Posted By: 8secDart

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/24/09 01:19 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I really can't believe all of you have never built a decent motor making around 600 hp. And you think that a tall fill, aluminum caps, main girdle, and the likes is required to make another 150-200? Gimme some of that stuff you're smoking!

Fire it up and pass it this way, if you think "another 150-200hp" doesnt add stress to a stock block thats already at 600hp. Your 493 cube'd Template ported 906's that have shift point at 5700 rpms, is pretty diff from a B1 engine.
You guys do what you want, but seems about once a week or so someone is posting up blocks that has gave up the ghost..

were not talking about 493 inch enignes that has home ported Edelbrock RPM heads here.
Were talking about a stroker engine with B1's that doesnt seem to respond well to 6500 rpm shift points.
If turning a stock block 7400-7800 rpms doesnt seem to bother you, then go right ahead. I have built and run engine at this caliber. And the large head B1 heads like RPM.

Your right my 8,200 shifts and 8.70s in a 3,500lbs car is not a cookie cutter.I agree 100% that a new block is the best,but if a guy has a A-body or like me never had that kind of money a stock 400 block will do.My A$$ puckers every run I've made in my life,but it beat the hell out off typing about racing on the computer.Lenny

Posted By: BryanRad

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/24/09 01:27 AM

The original post asked about a 400 block. Where can an aftermarket 400 block be had for 2800? Unless I am missing something, if he is set that he wants a short deck block, the only options outside of a stock block are KB and Indy. Sure anybody on here can name numerous RB blocks that have failed, but how many of you can site specific examples of where a properly prepared 400 block failed.

Posted By: Hemiroid

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/24/09 01:46 AM

Quote:

Your right my 8,200 shifts and 8.70s in a 3,500lbs car is not a cookie cutter.I agree 100% that a new block is the best,but if a guy has a A-body or like me never had that kind of money a stock 400 block will do.My A$$ puckers every run I've made in my life,but it beat the hell out off typing about racing on the computer.Lenny

How is the crap you're typing any different than his? Apply that same logic to your own keyboard warrioring and you wouldn't look so silly.

Posted By: blownzoom440

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/24/09 01:48 AM

i saw a KB block milled to 400 deckheight.it takes some work though.

Posted By: 8secDart

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/24/09 01:56 AM

MotherF----- I have done it.I done it 15 Damn years ago.I am stll doing it.I did not sit on a computer asking people how to,I was out there beating on parts.No I'am not John Fing Force But damn I Have built some bad A$$ cars with only the little bit of money I had.

Posted By: Barnstorm

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/24/09 02:39 AM

I'm glad I didn't change my firing order.

Attached picture 5436662-mopar_resize.jpg

Posted By: Bob_Coomer

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/24/09 02:54 AM

Quote:

MotherF----- I have done it.I done it 10 Damn years ago.I am stll doing it.I did not sit on a computer asking people how to,I was out there beating on parts.No I'am not John Fing Force But damn I Have built some bad A$$ cars with only the little bit of money I had.

Why do you want to curse people for? cause we actually have a good debate, and you disagree with some statements and opinion given?
Dude you have some personal issue's.
We all get how we have slow cars, and everyone else with there 11 second car questions just gets under your skin. and for us to you ask dumb questions on this web site which just seem to be trivial to you, may have merit non the less. We all know how great you are, and how fast all your cars is, you tell us in every post BTW.
You never provide any useful info, other than to sling garbage, and sling mud on people. If you dont like it here, or the people, simply go away. I betting people wont care.

Posted By: 8secDart

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/24/09 03:00 AM

Ok you win.But the people reading these post know that is not the case.Thanks have a good day.

Posted By: B1Fish540

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/24/09 03:22 AM

Last time this debate came up, Andy Mayes came on and defended 8 sec's position. Andy said he used to use stock blocks that lasted several seasons, and as everybody knows he sprayed the motors pretty good too. Kinda blows my theory of heavy cars being harder on stock blocks..lol That said, everything is anecdotal..meaning: your results may vary. Again I have to compare this debate to that of the 8 3/4 vs the 9 inch or Dana 60

. Lotta guys have had great luck with the 8 3/4...others world'nt run it if their life depended on it (and it could

). So a mans gotta do what a mans gotta do (thanks Sylvester!)and to each his own

Posted By: B1satellite

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/24/09 04:52 AM

While I will admit that the stock block has its limits, I have not found them. On a weaker 440 block with iron heads we were twisting it to almost 7000 with a 400 hit on a fogger and it did not even bounce a cap! The most important factor in making any combo live is your tune-up! Detonation will split ANY factory block skirt no matter what you do! That being said, I am waiting for the good deal to come my way on a KB low deck block, but until then the factory stuff works fine for me.

Posted By: jamesc

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/24/09 05:32 AM

everyone has opinions, many have valid points and some vary. here are mine which i won't say are any more valid than the next.

first though one would think moving a heavy car is harder work for the engine i don't, work is force times distance. now for a given HP output in a heavier car the engine WILL be providing that same force for a longer period of time which we can say is more duty.

obviously throwing money at an engine is no assurance that it will survive but we can all get caught up in false economy as well. yes a good aftermarket block will cost you more but how much will you have saved if the stock block fails and puts you in the wall or worse? getting a stock block whittled into respectable shape for racing isn't cheap and when you're all done you still have a 40+ YO passenger car block designed for a lot less HP then we're talking here. as one poster pointed out there was a time when there were few if any other options but again as mentioned that time has passed.

each person is an individual and the amount of money they can afford to spend will vary dramatically. if you plan on putting a lot of laps on it running it hard then a stock block can very well be a liability.

i agree that people have gotten away with using stock blocks but how often do posters come here and ask how far they can go with their aftermarket block?

you spend your money you take your chances

Posted By: LA360

Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP - 08/24/09 06:29 AM

Quote:

MotherF----- I have done it.I done it 15 Damn years ago.I am stll doing it.I did not sit on a computer asking people how to,I was out there beating on parts.No I'am not John Fing Force But damn I Have built some bad A$$ cars with only the little bit of money I had.

Personally I think the manner inwhich you are conducting yourself is very unprofessional for an employee or Proprietor of a Business. Right or wrong, people are entitles to their opinions, and the profanities aren't called for. Maybe I am old fashioned, but if you spoke to me in your shop in that manner, I'd be taking my money else where. I am surprised the Mods haven't jumped on this post yet.
AL....

B1 Guys what is the max HP