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Re: How much power can a 426 Hemi make?
[Re: Pale_Roader]
#338474
06/06/09 07:03 PM
06/06/09 07:03 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,715
closer to Canadian beer!
torkrules
I'm neurotic
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I'm neurotic
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,715
closer to Canadian beer!
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Quote:
Just curious. It seems to be getting easier to squeeze a solid 600HP from a non-stroked 440 these days with all the aftermarket heads out there. What about a hemi? How hard is it to make say, 700HP naturally aspirated with a stock stroke 426? A few guys i know say its as simple as cleaning up the heads, blueprinting the valvetrain and using a serious solid/solid roller cam and a good intake/exhaust set-up?
How much power have hemi owners typically built for something driven on the street? What would a 700HP street 426 hemi be like? Technology has come a long way.
And i've also wondered how much power the old 426 hemi stock cars made?
We're always talking about this stuff here, the usual bench racin'... and no one has owned one, just figured i'd ask here and get some real input. I'm sure there are a few hemi owners/ex-owners here.
I had a 500 inch stroker wedge that made 630Hp/650 torque, but it had a some work done to it (roller cam, ported Eddy heads, 1050 dom on a victor 440, 11.2 comp, zero deck)
The 472 stroker hemi had almost nothing done to it (stock aluminum MP heads which don't flow much better than the eddy's, 9.5 compression and an Engle K8 hydraulic cam) and it made 600HP/585 torque. It also suffered from too much valve guide clearance and too wide a piston to wall clearance.
After fixing all that and using one of Tim Bannings (FHO) small hydraulic cams (530ish intake/499 exhaust and 113 lobe seperation), it dropped the HP to 537, but the torque stayed the same and peaked at a lower RPM (3700rpm). Great for street driving and pulling down apartment complexes. It also idles like stock. You'd think there was a mild 318 under the hood (put the low end pull says otherwise). It's a 4 speed car and all you need to to is lift your foot off the clutch to get it rolling (like a fork lift).
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Re: How much power can a 426 Hemi make?
[Re: torkrules]
#338475
06/06/09 10:30 PM
06/06/09 10:30 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,763
Walton's Mountain, Pa
Steve1118
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,763
Walton's Mountain, Pa
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I think if you ran the numbers the stock Hemi MP pieces would still outflow the eddies by quite a bit. No disrespect for Edelbrock and their fine pieces meant. The wedge heads have come quite a distance from the old iron 906 heads that were commonplace in the old days.
What a lot of people miss is the fact that the Hemi is a no b/s design right from the get go. Nothing was compromised for street use, it is not a modified street engine. It was designed specifically for racing, and it was politics, NASCAR and NHRA alone that compromised it for steet use.
Years ago, around 83 or 84, when Warren Johnson was dominating in his Oldsmobiles, a close pal of mine was running Barnett's old PS Arrow with a 498 inch Hemi. WJ used to use Barnett's dyno, and one day we were in there with a Hemi motor, which had some ported 65 aluminum SS "K" head, doing dyno time and WJ was there with one of his PS DRCE Olds motors, which basically was a developed version of the bb Chevy. This was during a time when there was no factory involvement, or even encouragement, and we were racing any old stuff we could find around.
What we found was that Dom's Hemi actually made more hp and torque up until around 8000 rpm, and that is where the GM motors pulled away. We found that the Hemi valves opposing each other actually hurt the motor at big rpm, as the overlap cycle on the camshaft actually pushed the charge straight through the intake and out the exhaust. That is why the SS/AH guys now spend so much working with valve angle, and simplifying the cumbersome Hemi valve train.
The point I am trying to make is that in stock form the Hemi will still pretty much outperform everything. Using out of the box factory stuff, I think the Hemi is still the king of the hill.
"Old age and treachery trumps youth and enthusiasm, every time!" East Central Director / Chrysler Power Magazine www.reasbeckracing.webs.com
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Re: How much power can a 426 Hemi make?
[Re: sunroofgtx]
#338477
06/07/09 08:07 AM
06/07/09 08:07 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
OP
Swears too much
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OP
Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
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Interesting stuff. Now i wish i hadn't aborted my hemi plans a couple years ago. When i think about how much money that blower project would have (realistically) ended up costing, i probably could have scrounged up enough pieces to put a hemi together. Maybe i should think about this...
Far as i know, all i need for a low-budget 426 hemi is a used block, heads, valvetrain, covers and intake, yes? Anything else is just stuff i'd have to buy new for my lowdeck project anyways (pistons, rods, headers, cam, etc.)... Hell, even some old hemi parts and 440 parts thrown together making 500+ would be a cool starting point for my lil Challenger...
I'm sure some people here have put together relatively cheap hemis from time to time. Heh heh... and yes, i realize that "cheap hemi" is a fairly ridiculous term. Still, Hmmm...
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Re: How much power can a 426 Hemi make?
[Re: Steve1118]
#338478
06/07/09 08:25 AM
06/07/09 08:25 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,715
closer to Canadian beer!
torkrules
I'm neurotic
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I'm neurotic
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,715
closer to Canadian beer!
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Quote:
I think if you ran the numbers the stock Hemi MP pieces would still outflow the eddies by quite a bit. No disrespect for Edelbrock and their fine pieces meant. The wedge heads have come quite a distance from the old iron 906 heads that were commonplace in the old days.
What a lot of people miss is the fact that the Hemi is a no b/s design right from the get go. Nothing was compromised for street use, it is not a modified street engine. It was designed specifically for racing, and it was politics, NASCAR and NHRA alone that compromised it for steet use.
Years ago, around 83 or 84, when Warren Johnson was dominating in his Oldsmobiles, a close pal of mine was running Barnett's old PS Arrow with a 498 inch Hemi. WJ used to use Barnett's dyno, and one day we were in there with a Hemi motor, which had some ported 65 aluminum SS "K" head, doing dyno time and WJ was there with one of his PS DRCE Olds motors, which basically was a developed version of the bb Chevy. This was during a time when there was no factory involvement, or even encouragement, and we were racing any old stuff we could find around.
What we found was that Dom's Hemi actually made more hp and torque up until around 8000 rpm, and that is where the GM motors pulled away. We found that the Hemi valves opposing each other actually hurt the motor at big rpm, as the overlap cycle on the camshaft actually pushed the charge straight through the intake and out the exhaust. That is why the SS/AH guys now spend so much working with valve angle, and simplifying the cumbersome Hemi valve train.
The point I am trying to make is that in stock form the Hemi will still pretty much outperform everything. Using out of the box factory stuff, I think the Hemi is still the king of the hill.
I wonder if the newer MP (not the edelbrock ones) aluminum heads are different from the old 65 K heads. I flowed my MPs on the same flow bench as my eddies. Quite a bit of porting was done on the eddies to get them to flow 292 on the intake.
I'll have to pull the sheets on the Hemi heads but if I remember correctly they only flowed just over 300. With some mild cleanup we got them up to 320.
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Re: How much power can a 426 Hemi make?
[Re: Dodgeman67]
#338480
02/07/11 09:12 AM
02/07/11 09:12 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 866
Winnipeg ,Mb. CA.
chryco
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 866
Winnipeg ,Mb. CA.
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Last edited by chryco; 02/08/11 01:13 AM.
Gas is fer washin' parts ....Alky`s fer drinkin' ...Nitro`s fer Racin'!
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Re: How much power can a 426 Hemi make?
[Re: Steve1118]
#338481
02/07/11 10:04 AM
02/07/11 10:04 AM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 970
Backwater, PA
bwdst6
Bob George Racing #1 Fan
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Bob George Racing #1 Fan
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 970
Backwater, PA
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Quote:
What we found was that Dom's Hemi actually made more hp and torque up until around 8000 rpm, and that is where the GM motors pulled away. We found that the Hemi valves opposing each other actually hurt the motor at big rpm, as the overlap cycle on the camshaft actually pushed the charge straight through the intake and out the exhaust. That is why the SS/AH guys now spend so much working with valve angle, and simplifying the cumbersome Hemi valve train.
The point I am trying to make is that in stock form the Hemi will still pretty much outperform everything. Using out of the box factory stuff, I think the Hemi is still the king of the hill.
SS/AH valve angles are stock. And didn’t Dominic have a stock valve train with the exception of roller tipped rockers? That alone would be the reason why he couldn’t (or shouldn’t!) buzz it over 8000.
I bet with a T&D system on it, the lifters moved to SS/AH location along with the right cam would let it pull some numbers above 8000!
Last edited by bwdst6; 02/07/11 11:59 AM.
This post is available in double vision where drunk.
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Re: How much power can a 426 Hemi make?
[Re: bwdst6]
#338484
02/07/11 05:23 PM
02/07/11 05:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,763
Walton's Mountain, Pa
Steve1118
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,763
Walton's Mountain, Pa
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Michael, the valve angles are straightened up on the SS/AH motors, unless technology has advanced in other areas that I don't know about. The losing of charge on the overlap cycle has been a problem for a long, long time....but with all of us running fairly low rpm in the old days (8g max) it was never really something that was a big deal.
Landy roller rockers was the best you could get back in those days.
Personally, unless you are doing some kind of class racing, I think that really buzzing up a Hemi to run brackets is kind of dumb. With the camshaft profiles and big inch motors available today there is no need to. Just like running with real light oil....if you are running brackets, what's the point?
Just because the SS/AH guys do it doesn't mean it's right for everyone.
"Old age and treachery trumps youth and enthusiasm, every time!" East Central Director / Chrysler Power Magazine www.reasbeckracing.webs.com
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Re: How much power can a 426 Hemi make?
[Re: Steve1118]
#338485
02/07/11 11:43 PM
02/07/11 11:43 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,918
Akron, Ohio
ProSport
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,918
Akron, Ohio
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Great thread, I've been thinking about this all winter and even posted my motor on Racingjunk. I'd like to build a 426 Hemi if I can find parts affordably.
Is a Hemi block more durable than a 400 block?
What would a Hemi weigh with aluminum heads compared to a low deck with aluminum heads?
1970 Challenger, all aluminum 528 Hemi, HDK suspension, Tremec 5 speed manual
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Re: How much power can a 426 Hemi make?
[Re: Pale_Roader]
#338487
02/08/11 01:32 AM
02/08/11 01:32 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,180
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,180
Bend,OR USA
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Quote:
Interesting stuff. Now i wish i hadn't aborted my hemi plans a couple years ago. When i think about how much money that blower project would have (realistically) ended up costing, i probably could have scrounged up enough pieces to put a hemi together. Maybe i should think about this...
Far as i know, all i need for a low-budget 426 hemi is a used block, heads, valvetrain, covers and intake, yes? Anything else is just stuff i'd have to buy new for my lowdeck project anyways (pistons, rods, headers, cam, etc.)... Hell, even some old hemi parts and 440 parts thrown together making 500+ would be a cool starting point for my lil Challenger...
I'm sure some people here have put together relatively cheap hemis from time to time. Heh heh... and yes, i realize that "cheap hemi" is a fairly ridiculous term. Still, Hmmm...
One thing to keep in mind when deciding what to build, anyone can make a wedge motor run good with the right parts( I do  )Not everyone knows what good hemi parts(or what they look like  ) are and what bad hemi parts are (including myself) Not all 426 Hemi, wedges or SB Mopars run the same  Besides, it's a lot more fun whupping a Hemi car with a wedge motor(especially with a six pak) than it is whupping a wedge car with a Hemi motor      Sorry, I couldn't resist
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: How much power can a 426 Hemi make?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#338488
02/08/11 01:59 AM
02/08/11 01:59 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,976
Chilliwack B.C. Canada
RUNCHARGER
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,976
Chilliwack B.C. Canada
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Just for fun how about a 70's street machine formula. Stock 426 including pistons, heads etc. Now bolt on a set of headers, tunnel ram with twin 660's or 750 doubles and a 650 lift solid cam. Something like that ran deep into the 11's. Guys did it all the time.
Tuning the carbs on a tunnel, no different than a 440, setting timing on the Hemi, no different than a 440, setting the valves on a Hemi, no different than a 440. Oh wait, install new plugs on the Hemi, hey thats a lot better than burning your hands on those 440 headers at the track between rounds...
Sheldon
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Re: How much power can a 426 Hemi make?
[Re: Steve1118]
#338489
02/08/11 08:47 AM
02/08/11 08:47 AM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 970
Backwater, PA
bwdst6
Bob George Racing #1 Fan
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Bob George Racing #1 Fan
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 970
Backwater, PA
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Quote:
Just because the SS/AH guys do it doesn't mean it's right for everyone.
It would have been right for Dominic, is my point! His car seemed like it was set up adhering to pro stock rules. So cubic inch was limited. But to make hp, running up the RPM’s is the answer. The problem is with mostly stock valve train geometry, running above 8000 I bet he had all sorts of deflection he didn’t know about… pushrods, rocker arms, cam, etc. He could have had a huge roller in it (and I’m sure he did) but with the pushrods bending all over the place at that RPM he isn’t going to get advertised lift. I doubt excess overlap was why he wasn’t getting numbers past 8000.
SS/AH cars have addressed deflection issues and that’s why they run above 9000 RPM making 1000 hp. If Dominic did what SS/AH guys do today back then, I bet he would have given WJ a run for his money on the dyno! And it would have been neat, too!  Although I agree doing that for just a bracket car makes no sense!
This post is available in double vision where drunk.
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Re: How much power can a 426 Hemi make?
[Re: bwdst6]
#338490
02/08/11 09:36 AM
02/08/11 09:36 AM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 970
Backwater, PA
bwdst6
Bob George Racing #1 Fan
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Bob George Racing #1 Fan
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 970
Backwater, PA
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If you want to know how much hp is possible for a reliable, street trim machine here! http://www.b2cars.com/cars.phpThat’s 9 sec ET’s on a normally aspirated, pump gas, street tires (not slicks with a couple of cuts in them to make them DOT legal), solid flat tappet .650 cam (not some un-street-able roller) and some decent gears so you don’t have to run it at 5000 RPM at 65 mph and the engine will last 20-30 thousand miles. But it’ll cost you around $200k! 
This post is available in double vision where drunk.
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Re: How much power can a 426 Hemi make?
[Re: HEMIFRED]
#338492
02/08/11 01:24 PM
02/08/11 01:24 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,825
Sk. Canada
RemCharger
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,825
Sk. Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
Didn't they used to slap blowers on the top of these things and make like 3 thousand horsepower back in the day?
Still using the basic 426 blueprints in Top fuel motors
You can't say that here. Lots of people get bunched panties, and don't want to hear that they are related in any shape/form. 
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