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rotor phasing experiment. whats this mean? #327697 05/24/09 09:22 PM 05/24/09 09:22 PM
Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 15,478 the boonies aarcuda OP I Live Here
aarcuda OP I Live Here Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 15,478 the boonies	i wet to check my rotor phaing. I cut a slot in a cap and aligned the relutcor woth the pickup and then put the cap on. the rotor was dead center on the cap terminal. So i starteds it up and fired a timing light at it. it was dead on at idle. every now and then i see what looks like a flash of the rotor way to the right. not sure bout that When i sped it up, the rotor would move to the right of the terminal by about a 1/4" at first then come back to line up with the terminal. when i let off the gas from revving it, the rotor goes about 3/4" to the right of the terminal as the motor slows down and then quickly returns to dead on the terminal. Whats loose? 416 small block with stock type distributor

Re: rotor phasing experiment. whats this mean? [Re: aarcuda] #327698 05/24/09 09:44 PM 05/24/09 09:44 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska R RapidRobert Circle Track
RapidRobert Circle Track R Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska	Quote: When i sped it up, the rotor would move to the right of the terminal by about a 1/4" at first then come back to line up with the terminal. when i let off the gas from revving it, the rotor goes about 3/4" to the right of the terminal as the motor slows down and then quickly returns to dead on the terminal. Whats loose? (A) any advancing centrifugal(springs) plus vac adv is going to move the rotor more clockwise(SB) (B) when you let off the gas the vac is VERY high for a split second which pulls the rotor way CW then the vac lessens and the eng slows(less adv both of which move the rotor more CCW. (C) nothing loose that's normal. As Andy put it you just want that range of rotor movement around the circumference to be pretty much centered on the dist cap metal terminal or at least not so far off that it misfires under load when your moving which will happen at a shorter distance from the dist terminal than it would in your driveway. live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth

Re: rotor phasing experiment. whats this mean? [Re: aarcuda] #327699 05/24/09 11:05 PM 05/24/09 11:05 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 30,995 Oregon A AndyF I Win
AndyF I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 30,995 Oregon	Use a Mityvac or some other vacuum source to run the vacuum adavance and you'll see the rotor move away from the post. Vacuum advance is what causes the biggest problem.

Re: rotor phasing experiment. whats this mean? [Re: AndyF] #327700 05/24/09 11:11 PM 05/24/09 11:11 PM
Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 15,478 the boonies aarcuda OP I Live Here
aarcuda OP I Live Here Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 15,478 the boonies	forgot to say. my vacuum advance is DISCONNECTED- i mean, theres no vacuum line to the can. the can is still screwed on buts theres no vacuum line to it. is the plate moving around in there? Im seriously considering a new MSD distributor

Re: rotor phasing experiment. whats this mean? [Re: aarcuda] #327701 05/24/09 11:58 PM 05/24/09 11:58 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska R RapidRobert Circle Track
RapidRobert Circle Track R Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska	Quote: is the plate moving around in there? You could pull the reluctor to get to the 3 sided dark colored snap ring piece & then bend the 3 ears a bit to try & tighten things up or w no vac adv you could drill a small hole vertical between the 2 flat plates & with a small bolt/nut pin them together to gain some rigidity. Something looks too loose that you're not comfortable with? live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth

Re: rotor phasing experiment. whats this mean? [Re: aarcuda] #327702 05/25/09 12:01 AM 05/25/09 12:01 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 5,789 Hamilton, Ontario Canada Magnum master
Magnum master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 5,789 Hamilton, Ontario Canada	If there is no vacuum to the advance mechanism, that plate is not going to move. Pull the distributor cap off and twist the rotor clockwise and CCW. Not to the point of going into the advance springs but try to feel for slop in the oil pump to dist drive. How is the timing chain? 69 Super Bee, 93 Mustang LX, 04 Allure Super

Re: rotor phasing experiment. whats this mean? [Re: Magnum] #327703 05/25/09 08:55 AM 05/25/09 08:55 AM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska R RapidRobert Circle Track
RapidRobert Circle Track R Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska	Quote: Pull the distributor cap off and twist the rotor clockwise and CCW. Not to the point of going into the advance springs but try to feel for slop in the oil pump to dist drive. How is the timing chain? I think you nailed it that this is the "movement" that he is seeing at idle, that they both can(& do)make the rotor & therefore the timing marks jump around at idle. I used the collar on the dist shaft & a good chain & marks are rock steady now live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth

Re: rotor phasing experiment. whats this mean? [Re: RapidRobert] #327704 05/25/09 10:23 AM 05/25/09 10:23 AM
Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 15,478 the boonies aarcuda OP I Live Here
aarcuda OP I Live Here Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 15,478 the boonies	Quote: Quote: Pull the distributor cap off and twist the rotor clockwise and CCW. Not to the point of going into the advance springs but try to feel for slop in the oil pump to dist drive. How is the timing chain? I think you nailed it that this is the "movement" that he is seeing at idle, that they both can(& do)make the rotor & therefore the timing marks jump around at idle. I used the collar on the dist shaft & a good chain & marks are rock steady now I think that may be it. I did this last night when I first saw the rotor moving and ya, I can move the rotor back and forth quite a bit before getting into the mech advance. I do have a collar on it btw but my distr and oil pump drive are both used- probably got some slop (also two thinks I didn't replace when I built the motor last summer) I'm going to try and video it. It's unreal

Re: rotor phasing experiment. whats this mean? [Re: aarcuda] #327705 05/25/09 10:26 AM 05/25/09 10:26 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 5,789 Hamilton, Ontario Canada Magnum master
Magnum master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 5,789 Hamilton, Ontario Canada	If that turns out to be the problem. Either a new HD oil pump drive or an ugly fix it to hammer the dist end and peen it wider. 69 Super Bee, 93 Mustang LX, 04 Allure Super

Re: rotor phasing experiment. whats this mean? [Re: Magnum] #327706 05/25/09 01:02 PM 05/25/09 01:02 PM
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Quote: If there is no vacuum to the advance mechanism, that plate is not going to move. Pull the distributor cap off and twist the rotor clockwise and CCW. Not to the point of going into the advance springs but try to feel for slop in the oil pump to dist drive. How is the timing chain? Slop in the dist drive and chain should not affect rotor phase

Re: rotor phasing experiment. whats this mean? [Re: Magnum] #327707 05/25/09 01:05 PM 05/25/09 01:05 PM
Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 15,478 the boonies aarcuda OP I Live Here
aarcuda OP I Live Here Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 15,478 the boonies	well, its not as loose as i thought. its is loose a bit but thats not the oil pump drive thats loose. its a little slop up in the rotor, and where the cent weights slide in the slots. I get a bit there too. but its not enought to make it like Im seeing it. and since im looking at only the distrib/rotor any slack in the drive, souldnt matter. my plug will fire when the reluctor passes and show me where the rotor is in relation to the terminal. Since the rotor and reluctor are fixed together (except for a little slop with the rotor mounting), slop in the TC, oe distrib drive would be invisible to me cause im looking at the plug firing. So why would the rotor move back and forth like that? it seems like quite a bitthe stuff im seeing supposedly shouldnt be happening because i dont have vacuum advance hooked up

Re: rotor phasing experiment. whats this mean? [Re: aarcuda] #327708 05/25/09 01:07 PM 05/25/09 01:07 PM
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Quote: Quote: Quote: Pull the distributor cap off and twist the rotor clockwise and CCW. Not to the point of going into the advance springs but try to feel for slop in the oil pump to dist drive. How is the timing chain? I think you nailed it that this is the "movement" that he is seeing at idle, that they both can(& do)make the rotor & therefore the timing marks jump around at idle. I used the collar on the dist shaft & a good chain & marks are rock steady now I think that may be it. I did this last night when I first saw the rotor moving and ya, I can move the rotor back and forth quite a bit before getting into the mech advance. I do have a collar on it btw but my distr and oil pump drive are both used- probably got some slop (also two thinks I didn't replace when I built the motor last summer) I'm going to try and video it. It's unreal IF YOU ARE POINTING the light at your test hole, the movement you see should NOT be caused by the cam drive or intermediate shaft. It should all be in the relationship of the dist, possibly shaft wear, slop (looseness) in the advance plate, slop in the centrifugal mechanism, etc What you are seeing in the test hole is the time difference between when the points open/ magnetic trigger and the spark happening at the rotor. You should be able to turn the dist. with an electric drill and get the same results.

Re: rotor phasing experiment. whats this mean? [Re: aarcuda] #327709 05/25/09 01:11 PM 05/25/09 01:11 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 30,995 Oregon A AndyF I Win
AndyF I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 30,995 Oregon	You think you see the rotor moving back and forth but that doesn't mean that it is actually moving. You are using a timing light as a strobe correct?

Re: rotor phasing experiment. whats this mean? [Re: AndyF] #327710 05/25/09 02:08 PM 05/25/09 02:08 PM
Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 15,478 the boonies aarcuda OP I Live Here
aarcuda OP I Live Here Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 15,478 the boonies	Quote: You think you see the rotor moving back and forth but that doesn't mean that it is actually moving. You are using a timing light as a strobe correct? yes. the timing light fires on the wire coming from the cap terminal I windowed. Im definitely seeing the rotor move first clockwise (to the left of the terminal) and then shoot over to the right wheni let off but it will center on the terminal at idle and after it settles at higher rpm. I think my distributor is a pos that is just all wore out.

Re: rotor phasing experiment. whats this mean? [Re: aarcuda] #327711 05/25/09 02:46 PM 05/25/09 02:46 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska R RapidRobert Circle Track
RapidRobert Circle Track R Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska	The rotor position(seen w the strobe light effect) is going to change constantly as the rpm changes(until you(at higher rpm's) hit the point where the curve is maxed out) & thats normal. I was thinking that the rotor was dancing at idle which would indicate tchain or intermediate shaft slot clearance or less likely dist shaft runout. live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth

Re: rotor phasing experiment. whats this mean? [Re: aarcuda] #327712 05/25/09 02:55 PM 05/25/09 02:55 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 30,995 Oregon A AndyF I Win
AndyF I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 30,995 Oregon	Try a different timing light and see what happens.

Re: rotor phasing experiment. whats this mean? [Re: AndyF] #327713 05/25/09 03:17 PM 05/25/09 03:17 PM
Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 15,478 the boonies aarcuda OP I Live Here
aarcuda OP I Live Here Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 15,478 the boonies	Quote: Try a different timing light and see what happens. i only have one. a snapon electronic and i trust it. here a picture of the rotor with the reluctor lined up engine not running. 5251509-IMG_0025.JPG (87 downloads)

Re: rotor phasing experiment. whats this mean? [Re: aarcuda] #327714 05/25/09 04:48 PM 05/25/09 04:48 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska R RapidRobert Circle Track
RapidRobert Circle Track R Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska	Quote: So i starteds it up and fired a timing light at it. it was dead on at idle. every now and then i see what looks like a flash of the rotor way to the right. not sure bout that When i sped it up, the rotor would move to the right of the terminal by about a 1/4" at first then come back to line up with the terminal. when i let off the gas from revving it, the rotor goes about 3/4" to the right of the terminal as the motor slows down and then quickly returns to dead on the terminal. (1)My light acts like that when I have a poor(light) connection or maybe crossfire (2)"Comes back to line up with the terminal" if this is when you let it go back to idle its normal (3)it is not 3/4" to the right(its less than that) but goes out that far when you let off the gas? So you let off the gas & it advances(more CW)? If so that sounds like the classic increase of adv with vac adv but you dont have vac adv. bottom line is it missing at any point in time & with it dead center at idle it will always be moving more CW & is it moving enough to cause you a problem. I like to extend the rotor tip w solder & have the tip more CCW so the dist terminal is more in the center of it's range of travel. I'm picky I want everything perfect as the chebby/furds guys will not be so meticulous live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth

Re: rotor phasing experiment. whats this mean? [Re: RapidRobert] #327715 05/25/09 04:51 PM 05/25/09 04:51 PM
Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 15,478 the boonies aarcuda OP I Live Here
aarcuda OP I Live Here Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 15,478 the boonies	im going to buy me an MSD distributor. i have to find one that fits under the six pack air cleaner

Re: rotor phasing experiment. whats this mean? [Re: RapidRobert] #327716 05/26/09 08:27 AM 05/26/09 08:27 AM
Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 15,478 the boonies aarcuda OP I Live Here
aarcuda OP I Live Here Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 15,478 the boonies	Quote: The rotor position(seen w the strobe light effect) is going to change constantly as the rpm changes(until you(at higher rpm's) hit the point where the curve is maxed out) & thats normal. I was thinking that the rotor was dancing at idle which would indicate tchain or intermediate shaft slot clearance or less likely dist shaft runout. no, its not dancing at idle (although every once and then it looks like the rotor os at the terminal right before the one Im looking at). What I am seeing as I rev it up, the strobe is capturing the rotor move to the left of the terminal (reference picture above) for the reving part. If I rev it and hold it at a higher rpm, the rotor moves back to align with the terminal. When I let go of the throttle and let it drop back to idle, the rotor moves way the heck to the right of the terminal as its decelerating and then re-aligns with the terminal again when its at idle. Does this sound like what youve seen? If the rotor and the relector and the puck-up and the cap are all stationary and the only thing i have going on is mechanical advance, the rotor position should ALWAYS be at the same location because I am firing off the spark plug wire and looking at the rotor. rotor being fixed to the reluctor means they always stay together irregardless of accel or decel or mech advance. Maybe its just an inherent delay in my timing light that cant pick up the changes in the strobe as fast as its changing when i rev it. ya, maybe the timing light is not changing the strobe as fast as the spark is changing so it shows a delay

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