Re: Flat tappet failure...what do you think?
[Re: Neil]
#3206149
01/19/24 10:59 AM
01/19/24 10:59 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,989 Anoka County, MN
Leigh
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,989
Anoka County, MN
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Powell Machine on Youtube has several videos showing the lifter faces are not being machined correctly. Hardness on parts appears to be fine on the ones he has checked. Cam manufactures like to blame the oil, but that simply does not explain all of it as even people with mild cams have had issues that used to not occur in the past like they do today. Metalmax Mopar on Youtube also goes over this topic as well. Have to measure the crown numbers with a dial indicator on all the parts to weed out the bad ones. That’s the bad link I posted. Watch it, it’s eye opening.
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Re: Flat tappet failure...what do you think?
[Re: moparx]
#3206250
01/19/24 03:50 PM
01/19/24 03:50 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,535 Eagle, Idaho
Neil
The Doctor is in.
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The Doctor is in.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,535
Eagle, Idaho
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The oil hole likely is a good idea for HD applications. The lifter face would still need to be cut correctly, or none of these other tricks are going to help. DLC coated lifters is the same thing. What does the crown face look like when measured? Many of these parts companies have been bought and sold and the shop guys who used to do these parts the right way have likely retired, or have been forced out by these big business mergers. They could have new people not fully aware that their work is off the mark combined with tools that are worn out so the accuracy level has deteriorated etc. etc. The first company who fixes this problem with better made parts and high level of quality control that keeps junk from getting shipped out is going to make a lot of money. The other companies who pretend crummy parts are not their fault will die a slow death.
Last edited by Neil; 01/19/24 03:51 PM.
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Re: Flat tappet failure...what do you think?
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#3206328
01/19/24 08:14 PM
01/19/24 08:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,711 Portage,michigan
B3422W5
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Portage,michigan
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I just ran five years on a .650 lift solid lifter cam in my small block. And I even run alcohol. Brad Penn (Penn Grade) oil and EDM lifters. I would put it in another engine tomorrow.
John, with all respect, in my opinion folks were not having these problems five years ago, at least folks who knew what they were doing. Now you see folks that know what they are doing have problems all the time. Until something changes I would never use a flat tappet cam again. We heard this five years ago and five years before that. People use crap oil, won’t clean things right, and don’t pay attention to details. Agree 100% My current solid has been in two motors now, street strip(10.40 ish) for 7 years. Howard’s solid with EDM lifters. Other guys have used the same and similar grinds in my circle over the last few years without issue. If the lifters have zero issue rotating, good lube on startup and good oil, my experience over a very long time is that issues are very rare. Not unheard of, but rare. Looking at the pictures Chip posted in the OP, my guess is that contamination elsewhere in the motor locked up/ hindered the lifters, right after startup. That is ugly.
69 Dart GTS A4 Silver All steel, flat factory hood, 3360race weight 418 BPE factory replacement headed stroker, 565 lift solid cam Best so far, 10.40 @127 1/4 1.41 best 60 foot 6.60 at 103.90 1/8
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Re: Flat tappet failure...what do you think?
[Re: B3422W5]
#3207096
01/22/24 09:38 AM
01/22/24 09:38 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,361 Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda
OP
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OP
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I checked the springs this weekend. 130 psi seat pressure and right at 400 psi open. A lot more stout than I expected for open pressure.
CHIP '70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60 '69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60 '71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75 '73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75 '90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt '06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
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Re: Flat tappet failure...what do you think?
[Re: an8sec70cuda]
#3207106
01/22/24 10:21 AM
01/22/24 10:21 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,496 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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I’d give that combo (130 seat/400 open, 1.7 RR) about a 2% chance of surviving break in these days.
In other words……no surprise it didn’t live.
At least the mystery has been solved.
On the plus side….sounds like the current springs would possibly work with a HR cam.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Flat tappet failure...what do you think?
[Re: an8sec70cuda]
#3207159
01/22/24 12:53 PM
01/22/24 12:53 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 269 Anchorage, Alaska
metallicareload
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 269
Anchorage, Alaska
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I had a lobe go flat on a good hydraulic flat tappet, when I switched to a set of cylinder heads with hydraulic roller springs after 7,000+ or so miles
440, 4-Speed, 3.54 1968, when Dinosaurs ruled the Earth
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Re: Flat tappet failure...what do you think?
[Re: metallicareload]
#3207169
01/22/24 01:17 PM
01/22/24 01:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,875 Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize
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master
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Weddington, N.C.
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Yeah open pressure way too high.
Something I have always done (that I learned from a guy who built 1950's champion NASCAR Hudson Hornet engines...believe it or not) was to take the lifter bottoms and lightly etch them in a figure 8 on a piece of glass using jewelers rouge as an abrasive....he said it micro etched the machined surface to help it retain oil on the mating surface....just wipe them clean with mineral spirits and use GM eos at break-in. He said they break in almost instantly.
Well I always did it on all my flat tappets over the years...and I never lost one even running fairly high spring pressures...not 400 but mid-ish 300's.
Sometimes the old ways are the best
Last edited by Streetwize; 01/23/24 09:48 AM.
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Re: Flat tappet failure...what do you think?
[Re: an8sec70cuda]
#3207194
01/22/24 02:02 PM
01/22/24 02:02 PM
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Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 114 NW Indiana
powertrip
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NW Indiana
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I checked the springs this weekend. 130 psi seat pressure and right at 400 psi open. A lot more stout than I expected for open pressure. That cam never had a chance. I wonder what else was wrong with that build?
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Re: Flat tappet failure...what do you think?
[Re: LAD 524]
#3207435
01/23/24 09:56 AM
01/23/24 09:56 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,843 S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
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I Live Here
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S.E. Michigan
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Beyond what's already been said, the specific type of damage seen on the lifters seems pretty consistent with what I was advised might be an excessively high concentration of ZDDP.
According to the lubrication engineer I briefly emailed back and forth with alot of years ago, too much ZDDP can cause spalling and pitting.
Just repeating what I was told, have no idea what's really correct, but he described ZDDP additive use as an attempt to achieve the Goldilocks zone of just-right PPM, and if you double the amount it usually has the opposite effect of what we want.
Rich H.
Esse Quam Videri
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Re: Flat tappet failure...what do you think?
[Re: Streetwize]
#3207527
01/23/24 01:57 PM
01/23/24 01:57 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,388 north of coder
moparx
"Butt Crack Bob"
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"Butt Crack Bob"
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,388
north of coder
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Yeah open pressure way too high.
Something I have always done (that I learned from a guy who built 1950's champion NASCAR Hudson Hornet engines...believe it or not) was to take the lifter bottoms and lightly etch them in a figure 8 on a piece of glass using jewelers rouge as an abrasive....he said it micro etched the machined surface to help it retain oil on the mating surface....just wipe them clean with mineral spirits and use GM eos at break-in. He said they break in almost instantly.
Well I always did it on all my flat tappets over the years...and I never lost one even running fairly high spring pressures...not 400 but mid-ish 300's.
Sometimes the old ways are the best i read that some where in a magazine article way back when........... i can't remember what magazine that was though.
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Re: Flat tappet failure...what do you think?
[Re: an8sec70cuda]
#3209052
01/29/24 07:36 PM
01/29/24 07:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,606 westerly, ri. usa
440lebaron
top fuel
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top fuel
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Posts: 1,606
westerly, ri. usa
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if he used amsoil synthetic for break in that would be a issue
all parts are sold as is, all parts are considered used no warranties or returns paypal/check/money order, shipping is from zip 02891, buyer pays paypal fees 24% IRS 1099A plus 3% of part price, check/money order preferred site is not monitored 24/7 there might be a delay in response
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Re: Flat tappet failure...what do you think?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#3209433
01/31/24 10:11 AM
01/31/24 10:11 AM
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Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 876 Missouri
jwb123
super stock
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super stock
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Posts: 876
Missouri
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Again even the guys who buy and use the highest quality flat tappet cams are having trouble, look at this thread from class racer, these a stock eliminator guys using best parts available https://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=85341 the flat tappet camshaft is not a reliable piece to put into an engine anymore. The people that knew how to make them are either retired or dead in my opinion, the knowledge is lost. You can jump all the hoops with oils and break-in, but it is a crap shoot. I was a mechanic at a Chevy dealer in the 1970's nobody got excited about break-in on stock engines and special oils they just throwed them together and they worked. The only guys who broke-in cams were performance cams, and most of my buddies who installed smaller performance cams were oblivious to what break-in was and they still worked just fine.
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Re: Flat tappet failure...what do you think?
[Re: jwb123]
#3209534
01/31/24 03:40 PM
01/31/24 03:40 PM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,821 South Bend
John Brown
top fuel
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top fuel
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South Bend
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I'm betting a lot of the flat cam problems is that they weren't ground with a the 1 degree slant on the lobes that makes the lifters rotate. I'm willing to listen to other theories.
July 19th should be "Drive Like Rockford Day". R.I.P. Jimmie.
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Re: Flat tappet failure...what do you think?
[Re: John Brown]
#3209545
01/31/24 03:53 PM
01/31/24 03:53 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,172 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,172
PA.
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I used to buy bulk sets of solid lifter off of Jim Dowel at Racer Brown. I’m probably down to one set now. I should call him and have a short talk about this.
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Flat tappet failure...what do you think?
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#3209563
01/31/24 04:37 PM
01/31/24 04:37 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,535 Eagle, Idaho
Neil
The Doctor is in.
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The Doctor is in.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,535
Eagle, Idaho
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Internet seems to suggest that all lifters need to be measured and verified today. Cams also, but the cams appear to be less of a problem. The more I read and watch about cam and lifter failures the less I think the oils are the issue, especially if your cam is not crazy big.
The majority of the cam companies claiming to be selling USA made lifters appear to be selling Johnson brand lifters, and not the Hylift Johnson made ones. Doing some reading on a Pontiac site a few days ago about cam and lifter failures and the guy who owns Jones Racing Cams told everyone that the Hylift made ones are the preferred ones to get.
Last edited by Neil; 01/31/24 06:52 PM.
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