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Don't open this with a closed mind
#3191556
11/17/23 09:30 AM
11/17/23 09:30 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
jcc
OP
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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OP
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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Being I don't want to waste your time or challenge your beliefs of thinking outside the box.
So here goes.
Ever notice how a "one legged" burn out left on the street is almost always perfectly straight?
Notice how few posi/locked rear burn outs are equally as straight?
Ever pushed sideways on the rear of a car while doing a low-speed burn out, and learn how easy it is to move the car sideways?
Ever hear how proud racers are of how straight their car leaves while accelerating and the effort they make to achieve that result?
My assumption here is it takes very little rear sideways grip and/or force to keep a car going straight under heavy acceleration.
Would not the simple addition of a free rolling lightly suspended non steerable fairly narrow rear middle mounted tire slightly behind the rear axle achieve the sought after directional stability so cherished?
Of course, likely is 100% illegal in sanctioned racing,
Maybe it could be deployable at speeds say under 30mph when throttle reaches 100% or wheel spin occurs?
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: Don't open this with a closed mind
[Re: jcc]
#3192504
11/21/23 07:38 PM
11/21/23 07:38 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 268
Anchorage, Alaska
metallicareload
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 268
Anchorage, Alaska
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….
Would not the simple addition of a free rolling lightly suspended non steerable fairly narrow rear middle mounted tire slightly behind the rear axle achieve the sought after directional stability so cherished?
Of course, likely is 100% illegal in sanctioned racing,
Maybe it could be deployable at speeds say under 30mph when throttle reaches 100% or wheel spin occurs?
I get what you’re laying down, I think wheelie bars do exactly what you are describing 
440, 4-Speed, 3.54
1968, when Dinosaurs ruled the Earth
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Re: Don't open this with a closed mind
[Re: metallicareload]
#3192520
11/21/23 09:59 PM
11/21/23 09:59 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
jcc
OP
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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OP
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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Not sure I can argue that statement, except, is that their intent, since they are named "wheelie bars" for a reason or just a seldom mentioned benefit?
I wonder how much grip they have to reduce side slip with the normal small and hard wheel, but granted they do at times have a lot of weight on them to gain traction, helped by their lever arm mounting.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: Don't open this with a closed mind
[Re: jcc]
#3192725
11/22/23 09:08 PM
11/22/23 09:08 PM
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 5,783
ohio
ruderunner
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 5,783
ohio
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Don't forget the physics in having the wheelies behind the drive tires. That's very similar to what you proposed.
Angry white pureblood male
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Re: Don't open this with a closed mind
[Re: IMGTX]
#3193146
11/25/23 02:03 AM
11/25/23 02:03 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
jcc
OP
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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OP
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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Never the less, that was cool.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: Don't open this with a closed mind
[Re: jcc]
#3201215
12/31/23 06:29 PM
12/31/23 06:29 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,721
Star Idaho
67vertman
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,721
Star Idaho
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In addition. Front wheel drive cars, with a posi, seldom do burnouts that are not in a straight line.
So is it a weight thing? pulling instead of pushing.
My Monster are real!
Living within your means makes life pretty easy.
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Re: Don't open this with a closed mind
[Re: 67vertman]
#3201248
12/31/23 09:48 PM
12/31/23 09:48 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
jcc
OP
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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OP
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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My first guess is the driver can add minor correction steering inputs directly into the wheels that have lost direction control, which can't be done on RWD FS cars?
I don't know.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: Don't open this with a closed mind
[Re: jcc]
#3201770
01/02/24 06:36 PM
01/02/24 06:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,405
Michigan
MarkZ
Worthy
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Worthy
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,405
Michigan
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Being I don't want to waste your time or challenge your beliefs of thinking outside the box.
So here goes.
Ever notice how a "one legged" burn out left on the street is almost always perfectly straight?
Notice how few posi/locked rear burn outs are equally as straight?
Ever pushed sideways on the rear of a car while doing a low-speed burn out, and learn how easy it is to move the car sideways?
Ever hear how proud racers are of how straight their car leaves while accelerating and the effort they make to achieve that result?
My assumption here is it takes very little rear sideways grip and/or force to keep a car going straight under heavy acceleration.
Would not the simple addition of a free rolling lightly suspended non steerable fairly narrow rear middle mounted tire slightly behind the rear axle achieve the sought after directional stability so cherished?
Of course, likely is 100% illegal in sanctioned racing,
Maybe it could be deployable at speeds say under 30mph when throttle reaches 100% or wheel spin occurs?
Not saying it couldn't work, but why? This type of behavior can be tuned out of the suspension with a lot simpler, already in use designs. A pair of Cal Tracks fixed this issue for my Dad's car after a couple of runs and adjustments. Car tracks true on the street now instead of going squirrelly. Modern traction control does the same.
1987 Fifth Avenue - 512/518/D60
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Re: Don't open this with a closed mind
[Re: MarkZ]
#3201817
01/02/24 09:16 PM
01/02/24 09:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,831
Central Florida
larrymopar360
Stud Muffin
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Stud Muffin
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,831
Central Florida
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Definitely have noticed sure grip rear gives a lot of "oversteer" and one tire fryer tracks straight. Always figured it's because one wheel of the axle is still tracking versus neither.
Facts are stubborn things.
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Re: Don't open this with a closed mind
[Re: larrymopar360]
#3201821
01/02/24 09:37 PM
01/02/24 09:37 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,721
Star Idaho
67vertman
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,721
Star Idaho
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From CalTracs Website.....Calvert Racing’s patented CalTracs combines the best of both systems. It connects from the rear axle to a triangular-shaped bracket mounted to the front leaf spring eyelet. The lower hole in this triangle bracket attaches to the new bar, the center hole is aligned with the leaf spring eyelet and the top hole has a pin through it that will ride on top of the leaf spring pack. As you throttle, the axle will have a tendency to wrap, which will push the Calvert Force Transfer Link forward. The pivot at the front leaf eyelet then forces the pin riding on top of the springs downward into the spring pack itself. This downward force of the pin on the leaf springs causes down force on the entire axle assembly and pushes your tires down onto the pavement/dirt. The harder you’re on the throttle, the harder the downward force on your tires.
My Monster are real!
Living within your means makes life pretty easy.
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Re: Don't open this with a closed mind
[Re: MarkZ]
#3202117
01/03/24 11:40 PM
01/03/24 11:40 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
jcc
OP
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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OP
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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Modern traction control; I understood applies brakes on any single wheel needed to maintain directional control, and IMO applying any brakes when trying to accelerate is seldom the fastest solution.
A few years back I clearly remember a big fancy Mercedes driven by a low skill driver would often give off nice short puffs of black brake dust as the driver accelerated out of the road track corners at Daytona. Kept him on the track, but not sure that was the fastest track outcome for the car.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: Don't open this with a closed mind
[Re: jcc]
#3202534
01/05/24 05:27 PM
01/05/24 05:27 PM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,669
Wichita
GY3
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,669
Wichita
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Watch the Lucid Sapphire Youtube video on the Engineering Explained channel. Lots of interesting tech there.
'63 Dodge 330
11.19 @ 121 mph
Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs.
10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.
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Re: Don't open this with a closed mind
[Re: dvw]
#3208194
01/25/24 10:57 PM
01/25/24 10:57 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
jcc
OP
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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OP
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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What you seem IMO to be overlooking, is when both tires are spinning. I mentioned it in my opening observation a car sitting while in a burnout, is extremely easy push sideways by hand with very little effort, no matter which tire is more loaded, as long as both tires are spinning,
I also think the open axle single tire perfect straight burnout line proves my contention rather well.
Whatever, this was just a lighthearted mind experiment question.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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The third wheel wouldn't even need to be driven to be effective. Wouldn't its purpose only be to keep the rear tires from moving left or right. 
