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Re: Tubular K Member with Rack & Pinion [Re: cudaman1969] #3167410
08/11/23 11:30 PM
08/11/23 11:30 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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jcc Offline
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
jcc  Offline
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
J

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
Yes, your picture does indicate Ackerman. However, the topic here has been, how do you get proper Ackerman, not what it is, and as I noted a few replies earlier, the recent pictured DIY pic of a front rack set-up is lacking in proper Ackerman. I described in words a brief description of proper design to achieve Ackerman, I thought it was accurate in how to achieve normal Ackerman. For those seeking a pic in lieu of my 94? words, there are pics online that, mostly show rear rack Ackerman designs, but figuring out front rack designs should not too difficult to sort out also following my description.


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: Tubular K Member with Rack & Pinion [Re: cudaman1969] #3167418
08/12/23 01:01 AM
08/12/23 01:01 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,177
Park Forest, IL
slantzilla Online content
Too Many Posts
slantzilla  Online Content
Too Many Posts

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,177
Park Forest, IL
The reality is MOST people going to a tube K and rack are looking for more room and less weight.

When I bought that first AJE kit he promised 125# of weight loss. However, that was only if you were taking out factory power steering, and replacing power disc with manual Wilwoods. I had manual steering and manual disc brakes, so my weight savings were mainly out of my wallet..... Coilovers save some weight too IF you get rid of the t-bar mounts from the trans crossmember.

As far as bump steer and Ackerman, it can be figured out if you take the time to work it out.


"Everybody funny, now you funny too."
Re: Tubular K Member with Rack & Pinion [Re: jcc] #3167575
08/13/23 08:37 AM
08/13/23 08:37 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,997
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart Offline
master
gregsdart  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,997
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
Originally Posted by jcc
But a front steer solution as pictured has sacrificed proper Ackerman greatly, which might be in a very specific application acceptable, but seldom preferred.

Front steer control arms need to be made for proper acherman angle.
Many years ago (43?) I shortened a rack enough to work with drum brakes, and the result was zero acherman correction. The front tires on my Dart are always parallel. Why didn't I fix this later on when I went to discs, and could have done so? Because the car recovers so quickly if it ever gets out of shape on the track. On three occasions my Dart has gotten seriously sideways, at speeds of 125, 135, and 153 mph! A snap correction with the steering wheel and the car recovers like it is on rails! The reason is the car never has severe toe out when correcting for a slide, and doesn't want to switch ends! It wants to go straight. The worst was at Rockfalls raceway in 2004, blew a gasket out of a Milodon adapter plate (thanks Milodon for a shat design!)for the oil filter in the traps. Oiled the left rear, instant leftt turn! But it came back instantly without trying to continue to go in the other direction, like you most often see, just before the car in question goes beyond the point of recovery and crashes. So that is why I will always be willing to live with a car that is tough to push around corners. Also the amount of wear from scrub has been virtually zero, since this is a drag only vehicle.

Last edited by gregsdart; 08/13/23 08:40 AM.

8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: Tubular K Member with Rack & Pinion [Re: gregsdart] #3167606
08/13/23 11:10 AM
08/13/23 11:10 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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jcc Offline
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
jcc  Offline
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
J

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
You seem to have an above average understanding of the Ackerman issue. I don't dispute your satisfaction of your current set-up, but I might disagree with how it's being achieved, and it's a discussion we can unlikely get to the bottom of via a keyboard.

But I do want to address one issue, what might appear to be "toe out" when turning with Ackerman at play, is anything but, whereas parallel wheels in a turn is actually increasing virtual toe in as a turn tightens, meaning that part of the front tires "traction/friction circle" is being consumed by the additional toe in caused by the turning. As long as there is sufficient traction/friction available for the motion at hand, the only downside is tire wear, additional rolling resistance, and some additional tire heating.


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: Tubular K Member with Rack & Pinion [Re: jcc] #3167982
08/14/23 10:41 PM
08/14/23 10:41 PM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,340
Pennsylvania
proshiftcharger Offline OP
pro stock
proshiftcharger  Offline OP
pro stock

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,340
Pennsylvania
Thank you all for the comments and sharing your knowledge and experience.
I have it narrowed down to QA1 & RMS/Alterktion.

Re: Tubular K Member with Rack & Pinion [Re: proshiftcharger] #3168154
08/15/23 07:10 PM
08/15/23 07:10 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,030
Oregon
A
AndyF Offline
I Win
AndyF  Offline
I Win
A

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,030
Oregon
Here is a link to a MotorTrend article where they use a QA1 kit in an early B body. The kit they used had Corvette uprights so that was interesting. They didn't go into much detail on that swap, I don't think they even mentioned what the bolt pattern was.
https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/car-craft-video-series-amazon-garage-1965-dodge-coronet-part-2/

Re: Tubular K Member with Rack & Pinion [Re: jcc] #3168225
08/16/23 07:52 AM
08/16/23 07:52 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,997
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart Offline
master
gregsdart  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,997
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
Originally Posted by jcc
You seem to have an above average understanding of the Ackerman issue. I don't dispute your satisfaction of your current set-up, but I might disagree with how it's being achieved, and it's a discussion we can unlikely get to the bottom of via a keyboard.

But I do want to address one issue, what might appear to be "toe out" when turning with Ackerman at play, is anything but, whereas parallel wheels in a turn is actually increasing virtual toe in as a turn tightens, meaning that part of the front tires "traction/friction circle" is being consumed by the additional toe in caused by the turning. As long as there is sufficient traction/friction available for the motion at hand, the only downside is tire wear, additional rolling resistance, and some additional tire heating.

In my choice, there is only one situation that becomes important. That is keeping the car going straight, and if it has lost traction and started to slide sideways to any degree, any acherman correction will increase resistance to returning to a straightline, causing the back and forth swerves you see just before the driver can no longer regain control. Watch a video of the winged dirt track cars cornering, and you will note the front tires are virtually parallel. Acherman angle on these cars is obviously set for a slip angle on dirt that far exceeds the turning radius the car follows. So my guess is those cars are set with possibly only 25 percent of acherman correction, or even less to get true desired correction for the turn being negotiated, not the slip angle of about 40 degrees these cars use for a fast lap.
In my case, it was a happy accident, not a choice. But it flat works for the environment in which I want it to. There is a problem though as wheel bases get shorter. At 106 inch, my deal is liveable. With a car like an AMX with a 90 inch wheelbase and a more pronounced need for proper acherman, tire scrub on a turn would be high. Conversely, a top fuel car with a 250 inch wheelbase and a front track that is very narrow, no one would ever now the difference between proper and zero correction.

Last edited by gregsdart; 08/16/23 07:59 AM.

8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: Tubular K Member with Rack & Pinion [Re: AndyF] #3168227
08/16/23 08:15 AM
08/16/23 08:15 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 34,886
S.E. South Dakota !
bigdad Offline
Still Posting A Lot
bigdad  Offline
Still Posting A Lot

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 34,886
S.E. South Dakota !
Originally Posted by AndyF
Here is a link to a MotorTrend article where they use a QA1 kit in an early B body. The kit they used had Corvette uprights so that was interesting. They didn't go into much detail on that swap, I don't think they even mentioned what the bolt pattern was.
https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/car-craft-video-series-amazon-garage-1965-dodge-coronet-part-2/




That is just what my Gerst front looks like before he sold out to qa1


The lips of fools bring them strife, and their mouths invite a beating.Proverbs 18:6
Re: Tubular K Member with Rack & Pinion [Re: bigdad] #3168254
08/16/23 11:27 AM
08/16/23 11:27 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,645
San Jose,CA
migsBIG Offline
YouTube is my go-to news source
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YouTube is my go-to news source

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,645
San Jose,CA
Really depends on how much drag racing and driving, anything will work. If your looking or a cruiser or improved street driving, then all four will still fill the void. I your looking or aggressive driving, road course or something close to off road/specialty racing, then I can say the Magnum Force Transformer assembly would be my only pick. Unlike Reiley, QA1 and other kits that use mild steel tubing, stock style parts, Mustang II design and spindles, the MF Transformer is a stronger design that has great qualities for header/turbo clearance, great handling, multiple options and even dropped spindles if you want to be a bit stanced. 150lbs+ frontend weight savings is pretty nice to. I have been in multiple cars with the top three builders and MF was the best in my opinion. Going by MF shop for the last 25 years and sitting in on conversations, tech upgrades, client calls and such made me really appreciate their products when nobody was making parts for mopars. I have two kits waiting to be installed on my 70' CUDA Project and my ratrod drift car 71' R/T Charger and probably an a-body drag car when I'm done with these projects. To show a comparison, here are the lower control arms. First one is QA1 second RMS, third is Tory kit uses and final one is Magnum Force. Big difference in construction between the last three. The stronger Magnum Force one would take hitting curbs, potholes, objects way better than the other ones, and you could probably still limp home and might be fixable enough instead of being stranded somewhere. Next year, I plan to do a comparison one the tree compared to a stock set up in comparison to cost, parts quality, options and such when my situation improves, so it will be an interesting comparison between the brands.

qa1-52307_xl.jpgkframe.JPG20220417_140244.jpgIMG_5818.JPG
Re: Tubular K Member with Rack & Pinion [Re: migsBIG] #3168273
08/16/23 01:15 PM
08/16/23 01:15 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 34,886
S.E. South Dakota !
bigdad Offline
Still Posting A Lot
bigdad  Offline
Still Posting A Lot

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 34,886
S.E. South Dakota !
I wouldn't buy a cold beer from MF , waited over 6 months for a set of upper a arms that he told me were shipped like 5 times and seen too many failures of his stuff in person and on the net


The lips of fools bring them strife, and their mouths invite a beating.Proverbs 18:6
Re: Tubular K Member with Rack & Pinion [Re: bigdad] #3168289
08/16/23 02:17 PM
08/16/23 02:17 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,835
MI, usa
dvw Offline
master
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Posts: 9,835
MI, usa
The weight savings should never include the brakes. It should also include the additional weight of the coil over shocks and springs as they are heavier than the stock shocks alone. The actual weight savings vs a manual steering stock set-up with a trimmed K-frame is not much. I doubt if the stock K frame, control arms, linkage, and gear box are much over 150lbs.
Doug

Re: Tubular K Member with Rack & Pinion [Re: bigdad] #3168309
08/16/23 03:28 PM
08/16/23 03:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,022
MN
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JERICOGTX Offline
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,022
MN
Originally Posted by bigdad
I wouldn't buy a cold beer from MF


Agreed. That junk looks more like a counterweight, than front suspension.


69 GTX 68 Road Runner
Re: Tubular K Member with Rack & Pinion [Re: dvw] #3168393
08/16/23 09:54 PM
08/16/23 09:54 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,495
Shelby mi.
J
JAKE68 Offline
pro stock
JAKE68  Offline
pro stock
J

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,495
Shelby mi.
total weight of all stock componants w manual box is only 123 lbs so no 150 lbs savings, like only 10 lbs


JAKES AUTOMOTIVE
Re: Tubular K Member with Rack & Pinion [Re: JERICOGTX] #3168414
08/16/23 11:10 PM
08/16/23 11:10 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,645
San Jose,CA
migsBIG Offline
YouTube is my go-to news source
migsBIG  Offline
YouTube is my go-to news source

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,645
San Jose,CA
Originally Posted by JERICOGTX
Originally Posted by bigdad
I wouldn't buy a cold beer from MF


Agreed. That junk looks more like a counterweight, than front suspension.


It still amazes me how people will quote a product they never even layed hands on. As for the late shipping, depends who was the counter person at the time. The guy who was in charge has been fired and the owner is looking at finally having a new building done and back in operation hopefully by the end of November, so hope it all works out. Sucks they have to move business building three times in almost six years. Hopefully when everything is situated down the road, I can get them on board to do Mopar truck suspension.

Re: Tubular K Member with Rack & Pinion [Re: migsBIG] #3168638
08/17/23 08:21 PM
08/17/23 08:21 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 314
Medina, OH
D
dart440_72 Offline
enthusiast
dart440_72  Offline
enthusiast
D

Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 314
Medina, OH
I didn't see you mention HDK K members. If you haven't looked into them, check them out. Denny was great to work with. Car goes straight as an arrow at high speed. Tons of room to work on it, lighter wait, and parts you can buy at the local auto parts store.


72 Dart 500" low deck Indy SR heads. 10.40 @129 best so far
Re: Tubular K Member with Rack & Pinion [Re: dart440_72] #3169139
08/20/23 07:38 AM
08/20/23 07:38 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 620
Deep DEEP SOUTH
LAD 524 Offline
mopar
LAD 524  Offline
mopar

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 620
Deep DEEP SOUTH
HDK piece in mine....excellent piece, and Denny was the best to work with. A class act indeed.

Even from way down here in AUS.

Would never go back to stock.

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