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Re: What would you do? Going from 11.5 to low 10's with a 440
[Re: jwb123]
#2950885
08/05/21 10:23 PM
08/05/21 10:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,996
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,996
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
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Consider a big stroker. 4.375 or 4.5 inch. If you port the heads you have , get better rockers and a rollercam with more duration and lift a 4.5 inch stroker will only want 6000 MAX rpm. Re gear it, and enjoy a motor that will live a long life . Molnar 4.5 stroke crank , Molnar 7.1 hbeam rods. Rings no thicker than 1-16th . Flat top pistons with valve reliefs cut for 2.25 intake 1.81 ex with enough depth to handle a 285 at .050 intake and 296 ex with .800 lift for down the road when you upgrade to a much better head.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: What would you do? Going from 11.5 to low 10's with a 440
[Re: markz528]
#2950918
08/06/21 12:32 AM
08/06/21 12:32 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,027
Oregon
AndyF
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,027
Oregon
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The TF240 heads are good for 600 hp out of the box but everything else needs to be properly matched. Your compression ratio will most likely go up so you need to figure it out before you order parts. Are you willing to run race gas? You might need it with the TF heads. Are you running open headers? Figure out what your target trap speed is and work backwards to figure out the trap RPM and then see where that puts you for the camshaft. Me thinks you need to be in the 675 hp range. Andy - you don't think the TF270 would be a better choice? I'm hoping to go low 10's in my 3800 - 3900 lb GTX (if I ever get it done). It made 713 hp 707 torque with TF 270 heads. Street/strip car. The TF270 heads would be good for a bit more power but they are going to push the torque peak up more and his bottom end might not take the extra load. I think the engine could make 650+ with 240 heads and run the number that he wants to run but sure, if he wants even more power potential then go with the 270 heads plus a Super Victor intake and a Dominator carb. That should push the engine up to the 700+ range.
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Re: What would you do? Going from 11.5 to low 10's with a 440
[Re: B1MAXX]
#2950956
08/06/21 08:29 AM
08/06/21 08:29 AM
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Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 570
UK
rb446
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 570
UK
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You need much more cam / compression...270* or more at .050 and 12.0 to one or more. The best head for doing this is the brodix-bs, chamber vol. in 58cc range is no problem. There is serious help needed in your 60 foot.
A 13.5 to one, 270-280 @.050 cam in a 440, gets this done, regardless of the head. I agree, 12:1 minimum in a 440, and a big cam, I don't think your going to get near 700hp without it with a 240 head or a ported B1BS, a 270 head is a bit big (smallest port size for max hp) you'll need rpm and lots of it 7k+, @3600lbs/700hp with 60's in the 1.39's you'll be@10.0's@133 but not with a 30" tyre/4.30's with a 9.5" 4000 verter, thats hot street stuff, either 4.56 it with your 30" tyre and a 5>5500stall and you'll trap@ 7k ish depending on verter slip, or go down to a 28>29 tyre with the 4.30's. The only way a street/strip type set up is going to work is if your@470>512ci. My mates Dart with a 440, 12.7:1cr, puny DC.590sft, 271@.050, victor intake, 1050 Dom, 2" hdrs, MCH ported Eddy's@320cfm/.600" only made 595fwhp on track, 10 teens@131>2, with.1.39 60's...5000stall, SS springs, 4.56/31" tyre, trap@6800 the cam was going away by then...3150lbs. I ran an all iron 6-pk motor in the early 90's with ported BV 906's and a 290@.050/.650/.650 sft and thought it was quite mild a cam, ticked over@900rpm, pulled to 7k in the traps even with my lowly 10:1cr, (should've been in the 12.5's) different scenario yes but too many go too small on cam choice for the combo and their objectives even with modern heads that flow well down low in my opinion.
Last edited by rb446; 08/06/21 09:19 AM.
1969 'Cuda 446ci, best 9.96@133.9 in 1990
1971 340 'Cuda, best 11.01@122.8 in 1987
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Re: What would you do? Going from 11.5 to low 10's with a 440
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2950998
08/06/21 10:47 AM
08/06/21 10:47 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,697
Renton Wa
topfueldart
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,697
Renton Wa
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At 3600lbs, to go from 117mph to 132mph the moroso chart shows you need to make almost another 200hp. Sounds about right, I figured 625-650, it probably only makes 450ish now to go 117. Do you agree with Andy that the 263/270 would be too much camshaft for a 6500 RPM shift 440?
Last edited by topfueldart; 08/06/21 10:48 AM.
11.48 @ 120 with a 1.80 60' 318, stock 1.88 heads, stock 904, Pump Gas, 13 lbs of boost.
9.94 @ 134, 318 on pump gas, 14 lbs w/ Eddies, transbrake 727, 3600 lbs, 3.54 gear and 28's.
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Re: What would you do? Going from 11.5 to low 10's with a 440
[Re: jwb123]
#2951000
08/06/21 10:52 AM
08/06/21 10:52 AM
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Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 95
Cumming Georgia
cspracer
member
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member
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 95
Cumming Georgia
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Great advice. I used to have the direct connection recommendations for performance levels but can not seem to locate them. Do you know a link where they can be found?
1968 - 383 Roadrunner 4 speed street car, Dad bought new
1970 - 440 Roadrunner drag footbrake car 6.99 1/8th
2016 - Hemi RAM 1500 - Hauls all the toys
North Georgia / Central NC
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Re: What would you do? Going from 11.5 to low 10's with a 440
[Re: topfueldart]
#2951004
08/06/21 11:01 AM
08/06/21 11:01 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,094
central texas
krautrock
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,094
central texas
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At 3600lbs, to go from 117mph to 132mph the moroso chart shows you need to make almost another 200hp. Sounds about right, I figured 625-650, it probably only makes 450ish now to go 117. Do you agree with Andy that the 263/270 would be too much camshaft for a 6500 RPM shift 440? don't forget the other part that he said. which is "with the the trick flow 240 heads." if you keep your 440 source heads and have them CNC ported the answer may be different.
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Re: What would you do? Going from 11.5 to low 10's with a 440
[Re: jwb123]
#2951008
08/06/21 11:08 AM
08/06/21 11:08 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,697
Renton Wa
topfueldart
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,697
Renton Wa
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I think you maybe falling into it is all in the engine trap. If you are wanting to go from high 11's to low 10's think about what else needs changed on the car to use the extra 150HP or so you will need to make. Both in terms of reliability and consistency
I have a friendly competition with several friends over the years, I have seen their engines on the dyno, and all make more power than me, but they have yet to out run me in a heads up race.
You mentioned you had a slow 60foot, don't waste money on engine mods until you fix the 60 foot. More power just may make them worse not that much better. The biggest component in my experience when wanting to jump a few tenths, is the converter. I have thrashed and tuned my engine, knowing I was making it run better, the mph improved, but the ET and 60 foot did not, converter fixed it all. I built a fresh engine and messed with it for a whole season, a new converter picked it up 4 tenths. Adjustable shocks on all corners is another thing that not only get you performance, it also makes the car drive so much better when tuned correctly. A drag car is a package, look up the old direct connection recommendations for performance levels, they listed lots of chassis improvements, as well as engine improvements. I get it, the car has a Strange S60 with the 4:30's/spool. strange single adjustables and caltracs. I figure with another 175hp, the 4000 stall 9.5 converter may be closer to 5k, but it could definitely use a looser converter right now. This engine upgrade would for sure entail a few trans upgrades as well.
11.48 @ 120 with a 1.80 60' 318, stock 1.88 heads, stock 904, Pump Gas, 13 lbs of boost.
9.94 @ 134, 318 on pump gas, 14 lbs w/ Eddies, transbrake 727, 3600 lbs, 3.54 gear and 28's.
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Re: What would you do? Going from 11.5 to low 10's with a 440
[Re: merpar]
#2951014
08/06/21 11:22 AM
08/06/21 11:22 AM
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Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 570
UK
rb446
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 570
UK
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A lot of opinions here. But I believe AndyF has your best advice. The 470 is a great combination. I'll offer a piece of my own opinion. The cheapest and the easiest on parts is weight. You should be able to dump 400 lbs off your car without cutting it up . You do the math. Easy low 10's I would go along with the fact that the 470 Is a great combo but at 3600lbs/117mph = around 460fwhp, reduce that to 3200lbs and your@11.12@120.........you'll need another 180hp to go 10.0's@3200lbs, or come down to 2400lbs with current hp to go 10.0's but you won't have much of a challenger left.
1969 'Cuda 446ci, best 9.96@133.9 in 1990
1971 340 'Cuda, best 11.01@122.8 in 1987
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Re: What would you do? Going from 11.5 to low 10's with a 440
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2951019
08/06/21 11:31 AM
08/06/21 11:31 AM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,672
Wichita
GY3
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,672
Wichita
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At 3600lbs, to go from 117mph to 132mph the moroso chart shows you need to make almost another 200hp. Yep, we have done exactly that, too.
'63 Dodge 330
11.19 @ 121 mph
Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs.
10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.
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Re: What would you do? Going from 11.5 to low 10's with a 440
[Re: markz528]
#2951020
08/06/21 11:33 AM
08/06/21 11:33 AM
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Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 570
UK
rb446
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 570
UK
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The TF240 heads are good for 600 hp out of the box but everything else needs to be properly matched. Your compression ratio will most likely go up so you need to figure it out before you order parts. Are you willing to run race gas? You might need it with the TF heads. Are you running open headers? Figure out what your target trap speed is and work backwards to figure out the trap RPM and then see where that puts you for the camshaft. Me thinks you need to be in the 675 hp range. Andy - you don't think the TF270 would be a better choice? I'm hoping to go low 10's in my 3800 - 3900 lb GTX (if I ever get it done). It made 713 hp 707 torque with TF 270 heads. Street/strip car. Should do that easy, we went a best of 10.35@130 with our 3800lb@the line RR with only around 677 track calculated hp., 724ftlbs...street/strip car through the muffs.
1969 'Cuda 446ci, best 9.96@133.9 in 1990
1971 340 'Cuda, best 11.01@122.8 in 1987
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Re: What would you do? Going from 11.5 to low 10's with a 440
[Re: B1MAXX]
#2951097
08/06/21 03:27 PM
08/06/21 03:27 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,496
So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,496
So. Burlington, Vt.
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If the goal is truly a “low 10”, then you should first determine how low is a low ten.
What’s the slowest it could go in decent air and still feel like it’s “mission accomplished”.
Then look at a few calculators to see how much crank hp it’s going to take to get to that mark.
Then, for the typical bracket car...... figure you’ll need 5-10% more than that, as seen on the dyno as STP power.
In most cases, making the req’d power is often easier than making the best use of it in the car.
On the other hand, if the plan will be more dictated by what you currently have and budget concerns, then spend wisely...... and the ET just is what it is.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: What would you do? Going from 11.5 to low 10's with a 440
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2951106
08/06/21 03:43 PM
08/06/21 03:43 PM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,672
Wichita
GY3
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,672
Wichita
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With everything sorted, 200 hp will get you into the 10.30's. 250 hp will give you 10.0's.
'63 Dodge 330
11.19 @ 121 mph
Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs.
10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.
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Re: What would you do? Going from 11.5 to low 10's with a 440
[Re: EDDIEB]
#2951921
08/09/21 12:44 AM
08/09/21 12:44 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,027
Oregon
AndyF
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,027
Oregon
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Andy, who would you recommend porting intake Wilson Manifolds does the best job that I've ever seen but you might find a local guy who does a decent job for less money. These days I buy my intakes from Hughes Engines and have them do their deep port match. The Hughes deep port match is good bang for the buck. If you want to go the full nine yards then send it to Wilson for their full competition porting service. I've had Wilson do a bunch of intakes for me and the results are always stunning.
Last edited by AndyF; 08/09/21 12:45 AM.
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Re: What would you do? Going from 11.5 to low 10's with a 440
[Re: gregcharger72]
#2952785
08/11/21 12:10 PM
08/11/21 12:10 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,697
Renton Wa
topfueldart
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,697
Renton Wa
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i have recently built this engine. A 30over 440 with trick flow 240 heads, a hughes engine ported trick flow intake manifold, 254I / 260E @.050 hughes flat tappet cam .11.7:1 compression using 110 race fuel. Through a 1000 cfm 4150 pro systems carb. Car weighs 3700 with me in it .Car has gone 10.55 @ 126mph through the mufflers and a k&n 4in air filter. Thanks for the info!
11.48 @ 120 with a 1.80 60' 318, stock 1.88 heads, stock 904, Pump Gas, 13 lbs of boost.
9.94 @ 134, 318 on pump gas, 14 lbs w/ Eddies, transbrake 727, 3600 lbs, 3.54 gear and 28's.
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Re: What would you do? Going from 11.5 to low 10's with a 440
[Re: topfueldart]
#2953208
08/12/21 05:11 PM
08/12/21 05:11 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 498
El Dorado Ca
65signet
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 498
El Dorado Ca
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We built a 440 for a friend of mine, its in a Duster so i know its lighter than your car, but i think just getting the combo right is the most important, this 440 is 10.9 compression has a .525 lift cam and a pair of 516 iron heads with just some bigger valves, Trick Flow intake, car runs 11.0s and we figure with a set of Trick Flow 240 heads and a cam upgrade should be low 10s no problem, but your car has to good too.
1965 Plymouth Barracuda 273 M/SA
1970 Plymouth Duster 360/904 10.60s with J heads
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