What would you do? Going from 11.5 to low 10's with a 440

Just an open discussion, what would you select for components, and how far do you think you could go. Basically considering bolt on engine changes only, no gear change or big weight reduction.

Full weight 70 Challenger, probably 3600 with driver or so. Currently has run a best of 11.51 @ 117, 1.65ish 60. There's definitely more in the 60, but maybe a couple tenths faster at best.

Combo is as follows.

440, Ross flattops, pump gas, probably high 10:s to 1 compression, H Beams, base 440 source heads, zero porting, stock rocker arms, Comp XE294 hydraulic flat tappet, Torker 2 intake, 950 HP, hooker comp headers, 1 3/4?, 4000ish stall 9.5 PTC converter, 4.30's, 30 inch drag radial.


My initial thoughts would be trick flow 240's, their matching single plane, solid roller in the 260's @ 50, (like the Comp 263/270, .650 unit), 1 7/8ths or 2 inch primary header.


CNC the Stealths instead? TF 270's? Indy -1's? Victors? Needs dual quads and a tunnel ram to break 600? Just looking for opinions, assuming it will need 625ish to go low 10's at 3600, is this even attainable with an 11:1 440 and good cylinder heads on pump gas?

Thanks all!

440 block, 440Source rotating assembly for 526 cubes w/10.7:1 compression, 440Source girdle, ARP2000 bolts, Indy 325 heads fully ported with oversized 2.25 intake valves. Good oil pan and pump, and a 1050 4150 carb should put you right at 10.20-10.0...We have a big B-body easily that heavy running 10.40's on little 10 slicks that way...Traction is always an issue...

Forgot to mention, external oiling...

The TF240 heads are good for 600 hp out of the box but everything else needs to be properly matched. Your compression ratio will most likely go up so you need to figure it out before you order parts. Are you willing to run race gas? You might need it with the TF heads. Are you running open headers? Figure out what your target trap speed is and work backwards to figure out the trap RPM and then see where that puts you for the camshaft.

Quick math shows 6850 RPM at 135 with 5% slip. I'd guess 135 is pretty optimistic for this combo, and 132 would be more reasonable, and that shows 6677. The 263/270 Comp RX296R-8 is a 4000-6500 powerband, and 110 fuel is not out of the question if needed.

Spray it or boost it.

I think a 263/270 cam is too big for TF240 head on a 440 at 6500 rpm but Dwayne would be a better person to ask. I used a Comp 264/268 with TF240 heads in a pump gas 470 to make over 700 hp. You might want to copy some stuff from that engine combo. A ported intake manifold was key to making power with the TF heads and the cam couldn't be too big. The TF heads are very efficient and if you use too big of a cam it kills the power.

250 shot of spray.

We went from 11.30's regularly to 10.0's @ 3,700 lbs.

F1 Procharger

Your best option would be to build a stroker short block (I'd say 512) and use your current 440 source heads. The stock 440 source heads would be a choke point but I think would be the cheapest way to get into the 10s. If you have extra coin to spend upgrade to the TF 240 or the 270 depending on which route you want to go. My car weighs 3120 with me. I ran 10.80-10.90s with 440, stealth heads, 590 cam, 750 carb, speed pro flat tops (mid 10s:1 compression). I have since switched to a 440 with ross pistons 10.9:1, 557 cam, 850 carb and TF 240s. Typically the car runs 10.60-10.70s, been a best of 10.49. Tried TTI 1 3/4" and now using Hooker 2" fenderwell headers with a 6" muffler. Went from a Weiand single plane intake to a Victor 440 and didn't notice much gain there either. I shift at 6000 and try to cross the strip around 6200-6300. I just don't think your going to get low 10s with a stock stroke 440 with that low of compression in that heavy of a car.

My pump gas 470 made more than 700 hp with out of the box TF240 heads so I'd think you could do the same if you picked the same parts. Solid roller cam, ported intake, good carb (950 HP is probably too small for 700 hp but should be okay for 600), good headers, good ignition.

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/t...etors-440-stroker-search-ultimate-power/

600 hp with 3600 lbs is enough to go lower 10's at 130. 700 hp at 3600 lbs would be enough to push you into the high 9's. That only applies if the chassis really good and of course you need the correct converter, gears, tires, etc. I don't think there would be any problem making 650+ with your short block and TF240 heads but you need to pick the correct cam, need good rocker arms and I'd highly recommend porting the intake. Once you have 650 hp you'll have to figure out how to get the car to hook and launch.

https://board.moparts.org/ubbthread...e-440-stock-stroke-10-second-combos.html

One day id like to try the trick flow heads with the STX-21 and see if it runs anything like the combo above. I don’t know the car or poster but it is a stock stroke pump gas low 10 second combo in your weight range.

505ci . Good converter . 4.10 gear CNC Stealth .4150 HP100 carb , Eddy Victor . So;id ft .600 lift . 3700lbs . 10.50 best . 11:1 pump gas exhaust to diff .28" radial . 6000 shift .
Put TF270 , Eddy Super Victor , 4500 (1050) . 10.25s . had to shift @ 6500 with better heads/more HP TQ
Best sixty is 1.42
Stock block gave up . Put TF270 top end on my 440 with sft , .520 nett lift . 10.70

Tex

The cork in your current combo is the heads. I think you already know this based on your post. Don't know much about the trick flows. Whether or not I would port the 440 S heads or by trickflows would depend upon if I needed to spend a bunch of money on new rocker arms or not.

Good info here, thanks

Thanks for the info, I was hoping you would have some input. Being at a point where basically everything in the top end would be replaced makes the decision a bit difficult, as its tempting to go with something that would use an offset rocker, but these 240's seem tough to beat for the money based on your numbers.

The combo that you listed with TF 240s should get you to the mid 10's easily. I thing that you'll have to have more cylinder heads, cam, compression, and converter for 10.0. I ran a 470 with CNC ported Edelbrock RPMs, 660" solid roller, 12.4 to 1, and a 9.5" PTC in an Satellite at the same weight. It ran a best of 10.39 @ 130 off a foot brake.

The same car now runs 11.50s at 10.5 to 1 with out of the box Eddies and a hydraulic cam

At 3600lbs, to go from 117mph to 132mph the moroso chart shows you need to make almost another 200hp.

We've gone consistent 10.90s with stock Eddy RPMs, .590 flat tappet 12.5-1, Torker, 850, 1 3/4 headers, 4.56. In a all steel 69 GTX
Doug

I think you maybe falling into it is all in the engine trap. If you are wanting to go from high 11's to low 10's think about what else needs changed on the car to use the extra 150HP or so you will need to make. Both in terms of reliability and consistency
I have a friendly competition with several friends over the years, I have seen their engines on the dyno, and all make more power than me, but they have yet to out run me in a heads up race.
You mentioned you had a slow 60foot, don't waste money on engine mods until you fix the 60 foot. More power just may make them worse not that much better. The biggest component in my experience when wanting to jump a few tenths, is the converter. I have thrashed and tuned my engine, knowing I was making it run better, the mph improved, but the ET and 60 foot did not, converter fixed it all. I built a fresh engine and messed with it for a whole season, a new converter picked it up 4 tenths. Adjustable shocks on all corners is another thing that not only get you performance, it also makes the car drive so much better when tuned correctly. A drag car is a package, look up the old direct connection recommendations for performance levels, they listed lots of chassis improvements, as well as engine improvements.

Me thinks you need to be in the 675 hp range. Andy - you don't think the TF270 would be a better choice?

I'm hoping to go low 10's in my 3800 - 3900 lb GTX (if I ever get it done). It made 713 hp 707 torque with TF 270 heads. Street/strip car.

Consider a big stroker. 4.375 or 4.5 inch. If you port the heads you have , get better rockers and a rollercam with more duration and lift a 4.5 inch stroker will only want 6000 MAX rpm. Re gear it, and enjoy a motor that will live a long life . Molnar 4.5 stroke crank , Molnar 7.1 hbeam rods. Rings no thicker than 1-16th . Flat top pistons with valve reliefs cut for 2.25 intake 1.81 ex with enough depth to handle a 285 at .050 intake and 296 ex with .800 lift for down the road when you upgrade to a much better head.

The TF270 heads would be good for a bit more power but they are going to push the torque peak up more and his bottom end might not take the extra load. I think the engine could make 650+ with 240 heads and run the number that he wants to run but sure, if he wants even more power potential then go with the 270 heads plus a Super Victor intake and a Dominator carb. That should push the engine up to the 700+ range.

You need much more cam / compression...270* or more at .050 and 12.0 to one or more. The best head for doing this is the brodix-bs, chamber vol. in 58cc range is no problem. There is serious help needed in your 60 foot.


A 13.5 to one, 270-280 @.050 cam in a 440, gets this done, regardless of the head.

I agree, 12:1 minimum in a 440, and a big cam, I don't think your going to get near 700hp without it with a 240 head or a ported B1BS, a 270 head is a bit big (smallest port size for max hp) you'll need rpm and lots of it 7k+, @3600lbs/700hp with 60's in the 1.39's you'll be@10.0's@133 but not with a 30" tyre/4.30's with a 9.5" 4000 verter, thats hot street stuff, either 4.56 it with your 30" tyre and a 5>5500stall and you'll trap@ 7k ish depending on verter slip, or go down to a 28>29 tyre with the 4.30's. The only way a street/strip type set up is going to work is if your@470>512ci.

My mates Dart with a 440, 12.7:1cr, puny DC.590sft, 271@.050, victor intake, 1050 Dom, 2" hdrs, MCH ported Eddy's@320cfm/.600" only made 595fwhp on track, 10 teens@131>2, with.1.39 60's...5000stall, SS springs, 4.56/31" tyre, trap@6800 the cam was going away by then...3150lbs.

I ran an all iron 6-pk motor in the early 90's with ported BV 906's and a 290@.050/.650/.650 sft and thought it was quite mild a cam, ticked over@900rpm, pulled to 7k in the traps even with my lowly 10:1cr, (should've been in the 12.5's) different scenario yes but too many go too small on cam choice for the combo and their objectives even with modern heads that flow well down low in my opinion.

A lot of opinions here. But I believe AndyF has your best advice. The 470 is a great combination. I'll offer a piece of my own opinion. The cheapest and the easiest on parts is weight. You should be able to dump 400 lbs off your car without cutting it up . You do the math. Easy low 10's

Sounds about right, I figured 625-650, it probably only makes 450ish now to go 117.

Do you agree with Andy that the 263/270 would be too much camshaft for a 6500 RPM shift 440?

Great advice. I used to have the direct connection recommendations for performance levels but can not seem to locate them. Do you know a link where they can be found?

don't forget the other part that he said. which is "with the the trick flow 240 heads."
if you keep your 440 source heads and have them CNC ported the answer may be different.

I get it, the car has a Strange S60 with the 4:30's/spool. strange single adjustables and caltracs. I figure with another 175hp, the 4000 stall 9.5 converter may be closer to 5k, but it could definitely use a looser converter right now. This engine upgrade would for sure entail a few trans upgrades as well.

I would go along with the fact that the 470 Is a great combo but at 3600lbs/117mph = around 460fwhp, reduce that to 3200lbs and your@11.12@120.........you'll need another 180hp to go 10.0's@3200lbs, or come down to 2400lbs with current hp to go 10.0's but you won't have much of a challenger left.

Yep, we have done exactly that, too.

Should do that easy, we went a best of 10.35@130 with our 3800lb@the line RR with only around 677 track calculated hp., 724ftlbs...street/strip car through the muffs.

I was around when most of these heads where not around, and there was lots of rb powered cars running low tens....lots of compression, and lots of cam, big headers, big/dual carbs. pretty simple compared to today.

If the goal is truly a “low 10”, then you should first determine how low is a low ten.
What’s the slowest it could go in decent air and still feel like it’s “mission accomplished”.

Then look at a few calculators to see how much crank hp it’s going to take to get to that mark.
Then, for the typical bracket car...... figure you’ll need 5-10% more than that, as seen on the dyno as STP power.

In most cases, making the req’d power is often easier than making the best use of it in the car.


On the other hand, if the plan will be more dictated by what you currently have and budget concerns, then spend wisely...... and the ET just is what it is.

With everything sorted, 200 hp will get you into the 10.30's. 250 hp will give you 10.0's.

Andy, who would you recommend porting intake

Wilson Manifolds does the best job that I've ever seen but you might find a local guy who does a decent job for less money. These days I buy my intakes from Hughes Engines and have them do their deep port match. The Hughes deep port match is good bang for the buck. If you want to go the full nine yards then send it to Wilson for their full competition porting service. I've had Wilson do a bunch of intakes for me and the results are always stunning.

i have recently built this engine. A 30over 440 with trick flow 240 heads, a hughes engine ported trick flow intake manifold, 254I / 260E @.050 hughes flat tappet cam .11.7:1 compression using 110 race fuel. Through a 1000 cfm 4150 pro systems carb. Car weighs 3700 with me in it .Car has gone 10.55 @ 126mph through the mufflers and a k&n 4in air filter.

Thanks for the info!

We built a 440 for a friend of mine, its in a Duster so i know its lighter than your car, but i think just getting the combo right is the most important, this 440 is 10.9 compression has a .525 lift cam and a pair of 516 iron heads with just some bigger valves, Trick Flow intake, car runs 11.0s and we figure with a set of Trick Flow 240 heads and a cam upgrade should be low 10s no problem, but your car has to good too.