W2 stroker build - cam gear interference?
#2925655
05/22/21 08:49 PM
05/22/21 08:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,762 Windsor, ON, Canada
Diplomat360
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Hmm...weird one I have here. So having finished driving the oil pump shaft bushing into the block I figured I might as well get the cam in and make sure there is nothing weird about this setup, you know, gears mesh nicely, etc. The cam is a custom ground Comp Cams hydraulic roller with a regular compatible gear drive, meaning (per the tech's email): ...The cam you have is what is called Austempered Ductile Iron, which is basically the same material a flat tappet cam would be made of, but it is heat treated instead of parkerized like flat tappet cam would be so that the roller profile can be ground onto it and so that the hardened roller wheels can ride on the lobes without damaging the cam... ...and I am using the MP hardened shaft that I used with the last flat tappet cam I had. Great shape actually. OK, so far so good. So I stuck the cam in, got the front retaining plate bolted on, slowly went ahead to turn the cam (while checking that drive teeth were meshing nicely with the oil pump drive), all was good until I hit a certain spot...then literally STOP!!! The cam was stuck...so I wiggle the darn thing around, back and fort, back and forth, toss some extra oil at it and repeated, only to find the same "interference point". Hmm, weird I thought. I removed the cam and re-installed one of my old hydraulic flat tappet ones...spun it...super easy, no stuck spots. So at least the bushing install appears to be fine (I actually used the proper tool for it). I tossed the roller back in there, sure enough, got to a hard spot again. But I did notice that the more turns I got on it, the easier it got. So I literally employed my daughter for the next phase, she came out to provide the honorary oil squirter duty while I hooked up my dril and started to turn the assembly on slow speed. After about 10 secs. of this I stopped, checked things out, everything seemed fine, but I could still feel a stuck spot in there. So while it got a lot smoother it was nowhere near like all the other cams I have ever installed. So I pulled everything apart and took a few photos of the gear mesh pattern. You can see how the tight spot has let these spotty mesh markings, while the smooth part has a nearly continuous mark left. I've never messed with anything other than hydraulic flat tappet cams, so maybe this extra tightness/interference is a normal thing for this kind of a retro-fit setup. I'm curious, does anything here jump out at you guys? Is this a tell-tale sign of something else being wrong with the cam? Could it be bent? I don't think so because the tight spot is only across about three teeth...but who knows?
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Re: W2 stroker build - cam gear interference?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2926059
05/24/21 08:48 AM
05/24/21 08:48 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,762 Windsor, ON, Canada
Diplomat360
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Send the cam back, it is not GOOD ... I was afraid of that...but any theories for what exactly is the problem? Is it that the gears on the cam are cut incorrectly? I will try what Stanton suggested tonight, I suspect the pattern will just get moved to another spot though. Either way, I am extremely reluctant to use this, so most likely this is a bit of a SOL situation as that cam was purchased years ago when I started to gather parts for the build. I will give Comp Cams a call today to see if anything can come of it.
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Re: W2 stroker build - cam gear interference?
[Re: J_BODY]
#2926205
05/24/21 03:19 PM
05/24/21 03:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,762 Windsor, ON, Canada
Diplomat360
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Good catch..... will be interesting to see what the cam grinder says Well, I got on the phone with the Comp Cams Tech line. The person I got on the other hand was NOT at all in a rush to just throw some fancy terms at me and write-off the whole thing as "user error", point being: we had what felt like a decent and focused conversation. After I described the issue he asked how long the cam sat on the shelft. Well, the piece was ground in May of 2014, I got it about a year later as an on-line buy, and it's been sitting on my shelf ever since. The original box, but just sitting. His answer was: "hmm, well, it could have literally bent...by sitting on the journals just like that, for that long of a time, we have seen this type of stuff before." Now, I don't quite know what to make of that, however for something as heavy as a crank it is always advised to store it by standing it up on it's end. Either way, he suggested I try to check the run-out on the cam, which means I'll see if I can check against one of the journals, although I'm still thinking this is a gear teeth issue since the cam fits quite fine when installed w/o the oil-pump gear in place and it would appear there is no binding between the cam journals and the cam bearings in the block. Anyways, more to follow...appreciate all the feedback so far!
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Re: W2 stroker build - cam gear interference?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2926233
05/24/21 05:03 PM
05/24/21 05:03 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,995 Apollo, PA.
B1MAXX
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If it rotates fine with no oil pump gear in it and doesn't rotate the same with the gear in place it is the cam gear See what I mean ..... find a new cam company. If it was bent that bad at the one end it wouldn't even turn in the block by the time you got to the middle, if you could even get it in with out a hammer. So it's your fault for letting it sit 7 years. I have cams from the 80's that still work fine that have sat on shelf much longer than 7 years. Unreal. I still say lap the couple teeth with emery until you get smooth rotation. Unfortunately.
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Re: W2 stroker build - cam gear interference?
[Re: B1MAXX]
#2926256
05/24/21 06:59 PM
05/24/21 06:59 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,146 Melbourne , Australia
LA360
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Manufacturing mishaps happen. I have seen a flat tappet solid camshaft where the gear wasn't machined to the correct depth. When it went on the dyno, it made a mess. No idea how the engine builder didn't pick it up, but it destroyed the oil pump gear and the bush as well. Camshaft was sent back and a new one sent. Did you buy it directly from Comp or a retailer?
Alan Jones
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Re: W2 stroker build - cam gear interference?
[Re: LA360]
#2926301
05/24/21 09:45 PM
05/24/21 09:45 PM
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Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 9,521 Super Spudsville
Mr PotatoHead
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Just for kicks do you have a different oil pump drive? Who knows, if both are off a hair maybe a different gear might work.
STOP POTATO HATE!
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Re: W2 stroker build - cam gear interference?
[Re: Diplomat360]
#2926305
05/24/21 10:06 PM
05/24/21 10:06 PM
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Joined: May 2019
Posts: 713 Lake Villa Il
INTMD8
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His answer was: "hmm, well, it could have literally bent...by sitting on the journals just like that, for that long of a time, we have seen this type of stuff before."
LOL. Well just flip it over and it will be straight in a couple of years . Oh, I mean if bending under it's own weight was possible
69 Charger. 438ci Gen2 hemi. Flex fuel. Holley HP efi. 650rwhp @7250 510rwtq @5700
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Re: W2 stroker build - cam gear interference?
[Re: Diplomat360]
#2926331
05/24/21 11:27 PM
05/24/21 11:27 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,762 Windsor, ON, Canada
Diplomat360
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So you guys, I think it's def the cam gear.
Here is what I've done:
1) tossed a different (stock, but used and in good shape) oil pump gear, result => same bind
2) I added a thin shim under the oil pump gear wondering if the can gear is miss-located, yeah, I realize I could not really run like that since the distributor would be off, but for the sake of the experiment it was worth trying, result => cam and oil pump drive would not mesh at all...as in, attempting to set the two up resulted in a firm stop and no further movement
3) I then removed the freshly installed shaft bushing and installed another one, wondering if maybe the bushing itself was off a tad since the top of it had an imprint from the installation tool (which I thought was weird), result => I did actually discover that this bushing was just too darn soft and the bushing installation did actually leave a missformed ring around the center, which by the looks of it would have caused one half of the bushing to be up by about 0.005" (I meassured the thickness of the top lip), I wil get a pic added later to show this
Needless to say, that wasn't it...the cam actually had an ever harder time turning...LOL, ugh???
Sssooooo...at this point in time I'm sort of ready to give up...damn, I never thought I would run into this kind of a problem, after all his is such an easy QA check at the end of the machining operation!
I suppose the only thing left is to try the emery cloth "adjustment"...
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Re: W2 stroker build - cam gear interference?
[Re: LA360]
#2926332
05/24/21 11:29 PM
05/24/21 11:29 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,762 Windsor, ON, Canada
Diplomat360
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...Did you buy it directly from Comp or a retailer? Bought it from a retailer...so I'm guessing I would be hard pressed to actually get Comp Cams to own up to the problem after so many years. But hey, worth trying, so that'll be tomorrow's goal!
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Re: W2 stroker build - cam gear interference?
[Re: B1MAXX]
#2926334
05/24/21 11:35 PM
05/24/21 11:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,762 Windsor, ON, Canada
Diplomat360
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If it rotates fine with no oil pump gear in it and doesn't rotate the same with the gear in place it is the cam gear See what I mean ..... find a new cam company. If it was bent that bad at the one end it wouldn't even turn in the block by the time you got to the middle, if you could even get it in with out a hammer. So it's your fault for letting it sit 7 years. I have cams from the 80's that still work fine that have sat on shelf much longer than 7 years. Unreal. I still say lap the couple teeth with emery until you get smooth rotation. Unfortunately. Yeah, I know what you mean. I tried to be open minded about this hoping that something DIY fixable could be identified...I suppose I was living on such hopes anyways! I will give these guys a ring tomorrow to see if they'll replace the cam for another one that doesn't have a problem. If they refuse, well, can't do much about it now, but that'll be the last Comp Cams anything I bought. That's all I can do, take my $$$ somewhere else. In the meantime I will certainly try the emery cloth approach.
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Re: W2 stroker build - cam gear interference?
[Re: Diplomat360]
#2926676
05/25/21 10:00 PM
05/25/21 10:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,486 SoCal
Brian Hafliger
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Make sure the bushing for the oil pump drive is seated all the way...it may look seated but you need to make sure. If it's no, it'll hold the drive up enough to make it feel rough and cause damage.
Brian Hafliger
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Re: W2 stroker build - cam gear interference?
[Re: Brian Hafliger]
#2926836
05/26/21 11:17 AM
05/26/21 11:17 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,506 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
I Live Here
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So. Burlington, Vt.
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The cam core was made wrong........ simple as that.
Just send it back to comp, they’ll probably take care of it.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: W2 stroker build - cam gear interference?
[Re: moparx]
#2926992
05/26/21 04:01 PM
05/26/21 04:01 PM
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Joined: May 2019
Posts: 713 Lake Villa Il
INTMD8
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super stock
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i have always said, if a cam or a crank will "bend" laying on their side after a while, i guess ALL metal parts do that ! ya know, cylinder heads, blocks, rear end housings, transmission cases, all your GOOD parts. Yeah I keep jackstands under everything so it doesn't eventually droop down to the ground
69 Charger. 438ci Gen2 hemi. Flex fuel. Holley HP efi. 650rwhp @7250 510rwtq @5700
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