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Re: 440 daily driver (550 hp, 600 ft-lb tq) [Re: 70charger512] #2566305
10/19/18 02:58 AM
10/19/18 02:58 AM
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Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda Offline
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And if you Stroke that 440, then your goal of a stump pulling 550hp motor becomes more reasonable.

"Stump pulling" and "high hp" are two variables that are at odds with each other. You can have one or the other,

More cubic inches help the goal of reaching both, much easier.

Re: 440 daily driver (550 hp, 600 ft-lb tq) [Re: Pacnorthcuda] #2566309
10/19/18 03:05 AM
10/19/18 03:05 AM
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70charger512 Offline OP
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Originally Posted By Pacnorthcuda
Originally Posted By Nick Stevanovski
Originally Posted By Pacnorthcuda
Nick,

You are filling in the blanks for the variables that affect your specific issue.

Like this...

You want 550hp
You don't want to spin the motor past 6000

Those two specifics dictate a cubic inch requirement that is likely higher than 440...likely.

Now you add in the requirement that it be a stump puller (my words) off idle

Now your REALLY making things difficult, if not impossible.

Does that make sense?

But strokers greatly increase low end torque correct? So its very difficult to have a good street driving 550 hp 440?


Well "good street driving" is kinda vague and people define it differently, but you seem to be caught up in the fact that a performance cam won't pull like a freight train from 1000 rpm. It won't. But it's not a big deal, at least the way I define "good street driving".

When it comes to camshaft selection, IF max RPM is a big factor for you (that's OK...MAX RPM is a big factor for many people and many engines!!!!!). Then a good selection technique is to select a cam with a max powerband that matches your max expected RPM.

After all....why select a cam that's good to 6500 when you never expect to use it?

The Lunati 60303 has a max powerband of about 6000, it's therefore a reasonable choice for you BASED ON MAX RPM.

Now with that comes a minimum.....call it 2000. You have to live with it (at least in terms of THIS cam), but a powerband that starts at 2000 is pretty damn good, for a performance cam.

If you select a cam that's lower....you're rapidly entering the realm of low-PO / stock cams and you simply are NOT going to make big power numbers.

For example, you might find a cam whose powerband starts at 1500, but it's not going to make big power at 6000, and it's not going to reach your 550 hp goal.

I think we need to rewind hahah, i didnt mean it would pull at low rpm, i meant itd be easier at a stoplight to go in everyday driving. Thats what i need to learn about cam rpm ranges. With a 2500-6500 cam would i need to slip the clutch at a higher rpm than a smaller cam? Sorry, i wasnt talking about launching, i meant in everyday driving. Do bigger cams require more rpm to move from a stop?

Re: 440 daily driver (550 hp, 600 ft-lb tq) [Re: 70charger512] #2566311
10/19/18 03:07 AM
10/19/18 03:07 AM
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Pattison Texas
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This is an old dyno program, 440 with the small cam you want, 219,227 @ .050, & my heads that are close to the Trick Flow 240, this is gross HP.

Screenshot (16).png

1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI
512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim
2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5

Re: 440 daily driver (550 hp, 600 ft-lb tq) [Re: 70charger512] #2566313
10/19/18 03:09 AM
10/19/18 03:09 AM
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Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda Offline
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"Do bigger cams require more RPM to move from a stop"

At a moderate acceleration rate----no, but it might take a little more throttle/clutch 'finesse'
At a higher acceleration rate----yes

Re: 440 daily driver (550 hp, 600 ft-lb tq) [Re: 70charger512] #2566314
10/19/18 03:12 AM
10/19/18 03:12 AM
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Pattison Texas
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This is the same 440 with the cam I run in my street car 512 cid
Hyd roller.

Screenshot (17).png

1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI
512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim
2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5

Re: 440 daily driver (550 hp, 600 ft-lb tq) [Re: CSK] #2566315
10/19/18 03:16 AM
10/19/18 03:16 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
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Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda Offline
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Originally Posted By csk
This is an old dyno program, 440 with the small cam you want, 219,227 @ .050, & my heads that are close to the Trick Flow 240, this is gross HP.


Csk---where are you getting the 219 227 at 50 numbers. I don't know what the Lunati .050 numbers are but the .000 numbers are 268 272 ( I think)

Re: 440 daily driver (550 hp, 600 ft-lb tq) [Re: 70charger512] #2566316
10/19/18 03:17 AM
10/19/18 03:17 AM
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Balt. Md
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Nick if you click the link in my sig it will take to my page on the 62 to 65 Mopar site. Near the top it has my first 906 headed 440 build that ended up running a best of 11.49 @ 116. A bit farther down is my 493 build that has run a best of 10.70's @ almost 125. Both are pump gas street builds I drive everywhere. Don't know if it will help you but you may want to look at it. My old 440 build used the MP solid flat tappet .557 cam and my 493 uses a Dwayne Porter solid flat tappet cam that's 264 & 270 @ .050 with .585 & .592 lift with a 110 LSA. It has a little rump rump but the car idles nicely and of course I am an old hot rodder who loves a little rump rump in my hot rods idle. Ron

Re: 440 daily driver (550 hp, 600 ft-lb tq) [Re: Pacnorthcuda] #2566317
10/19/18 03:17 AM
10/19/18 03:17 AM
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Pattison Texas
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Originally Posted By Pacnorthcuda
Originally Posted By csk
This is an old dyno program, 440 with the small cam you want, 219,227 @ .050, & my heads that are close to the Trick Flow 240, this is gross HP.


Csk---where are you getting the 219 227 at 50 numbers. I don't know what the Lunati .050 numbers are but the .000 numbers are 268 272 ( I think)

The OP at the top, 1st post


1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI
512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim
2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5

Re: 440 daily driver (550 hp, 600 ft-lb tq) [Re: 70charger512] #2566319
10/19/18 03:23 AM
10/19/18 03:23 AM
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Oregon
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Why don't you just copy my engine? I have a 512 inch big block in my '65 Coronet with a Doug Nash 5 speed and a 3.23 rearend gear.

The engine made 575 hp on the dyno, 485 rwhp on the chassis dyno and it runs on pump gas. The compression ratio is 10:1, the cam is a hyd roller with 246/246 on 112. Heads are CNC ported, intake is Trick Flow, exhaust is cast iron manifolds and I'm using a Holley Sniper EFI system with Hyperspark ignition. I think it checks all the boxes you want checked. Figure on spending about $10,000 to get an engine like that built. Here is a video of it on the chassis dyno:

https://youtu.be/xG3-_YJGdZ8

Re: 440 daily driver (550 hp, 600 ft-lb tq) [Re: 70charger512] #2566320
10/19/18 03:23 AM
10/19/18 03:23 AM
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Pattison Texas
CSK Offline
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This is my 512, same as the 440, just has a stroker crank .I have not dynoed mine, but from the MPH at the track this is pretty close for a corrected for DA # 4050lb 1750 DA 11.33@ 121.1 in full street trim. this is a street car.

Screenshot (18).png

1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI
512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim
2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5

Re: 440 daily driver (550 hp, 600 ft-lb tq) [Re: 70charger512] #2566360
10/19/18 10:23 AM
10/19/18 10:23 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
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New York
polyspheric Offline
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What's more important:
That the advice is good, or that you understand what took them years to learn?

People who spent their time helping you are beginning to notice that when they answer your question YOU ASK ANOTHER QUESTION.


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Re: 440 daily driver (550 hp, 600 ft-lb tq) [Re: 70charger512] #2566371
10/19/18 11:05 AM
10/19/18 11:05 AM
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Northeast Indiana
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73DAD Offline
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I can relate to what you're going through. Getting a specific answer to a question can be like pulling teeth around here.

Re: 440 daily driver (550 hp, 600 ft-lb tq) [Re: CSK] #2566379
10/19/18 11:25 AM
10/19/18 11:25 AM
Joined: Mar 2013
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Spring Hill Fl
65Fury440 Offline
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Originally Posted By csk
This is the same 440 with the cam I run in my street car 512 cid
Hyd roller.


Surprising for me to see the cam in your 440 made more HP than in your 512.

I D/Led Dyno 200, trying to bumble through it now.

Re: 440 daily driver (550 hp, 600 ft-lb tq) [Re: 70charger512] #2566382
10/19/18 11:26 AM
10/19/18 11:26 AM
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Posts: 207
warren, mich.
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Just wondering what the weight of your car will be with you in it thanks?

Re: 440 daily driver (550 hp, 600 ft-lb tq) [Re: dwayne welder] #2566445
10/19/18 01:20 PM
10/19/18 01:20 PM
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Chicago, IL
TonyS451 Offline
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Just a little friendly advice, Nick. Remember, this is a free message board, and nobody is entitled to getting responses, yet you're getting a lot of great advice in your posts. You're asking a ten part question and basically expecting to get all the info you want, worded in the way you want it. You've already had probably 5 of the most knowledgeable Mopar engine builders in the country respond to your questions, and each has told you you won't get 550 hp with that small cam (regardless of stroker or 440), but best shot of getting anywhere close to that number with that cam, will be with good heads and a stroker. They have also offered up proven combinations that will for sure get you to that number and beyond, both with a 440 or a stroker, but it will require a more aggressive cam and with that, there may be compromises to what you consider being streetable. Unfortunately, thats it. There is no magic small cam out there. If 550/600 is what is most important (as noted in the title), its very easy to map out a combo that will get you there, just be open to cam choice and budget.


2 kids and a dog
Re: 440 daily driver (550 hp, 600 ft-lb tq) [Re: polyspheric] #2566446
10/19/18 01:20 PM
10/19/18 01:20 PM
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NC
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70charger512 Offline OP
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Originally Posted By polyspheric
What's more important:
That the advice is good, or that you understand what took them years to learn?

People who spent their time helping you are beginning to notice that when they answer your question YOU ASK ANOTHER QUESTION.

It is more important to understand advice. That's why I ask another question. Im not asking for someone to tell me exactly what to do, and for me to do it without knowing what is even happening. I want to understand why, and have suggestions.

Re: 440 daily driver (550 hp, 600 ft-lb tq) [Re: dwayne welder] #2566447
10/19/18 01:23 PM
10/19/18 01:23 PM
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70charger512 Offline OP
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Originally Posted By dwayne welder
Just wondering what the weight of your car will be with you in it thanks?

With me in it it should be around 3800-3900, if the weight of 70 charger 440's I read is correct.

Re: 440 daily driver (550 hp, 600 ft-lb tq) [Re: TonyS451] #2566449
10/19/18 01:26 PM
10/19/18 01:26 PM
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NC
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70charger512 Offline OP
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Originally Posted By TonyS451
Just a little friendly advice, Nick. Remember, this is a free message board, and nobody is entitled to getting responses, yet you're getting a lot of great advice in your posts. You're asking a ten part question and basically expecting to get all the info you want, worded in the way you want it. You've already had probably 5 of the most knowledgeable Mopar engine builders in the country respond to your questions, and each has told you you won't get 550 hp with that small cam (regardless of stroker or 440), but best shot of getting anywhere close to that number with that cam, will be with good heads and a stroker. They have also offered up proven combinations that will for sure get you to that number and beyond, both with a 440 or a stroker, but it will require a more aggressive cam and with that, there may be compromises to what you consider being streetable. Unfortunately, thats it. There is no magic small cam out there. If 550/600 is what is most important (as noted in the title), its very easy to map out a combo that will get you there, just be open to cam choice and budget.

I understand I wont get an answer to every question in the way I want. Im hoping one guy could help me understand one thing, and another can help with something else. And i also understand I can't get there with that cam. Again, Thats why I asked someone to explain the idea behind cam operating RPM, because I genuinely dott understand that idea.

Re: 440 daily driver (550 hp, 600 ft-lb tq) [Re: CSK] #2566455
10/19/18 01:32 PM
10/19/18 01:32 PM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 257
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70charger512 Offline OP
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Originally Posted By csk
This is my 512, same as the 440, just has a stroker crank .I have not dynoed mine, but from the MPH at the track this is pretty close for a corrected for DA # 4050lb 1750 DA 11.33@ 121.1 in full street trim. this is a street car.

Whats interesting about this is that the power went down went going from stock stroke to 512. Why is this? And i may have missed it but what cam do you have?

Re: 440 daily driver (550 hp, 600 ft-lb tq) [Re: 70charger512] #2566456
10/19/18 01:41 PM
10/19/18 01:41 PM
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Read this and see what you think: http://www.moparts.org/Tech/Archive/bb/Lobe.html

It takes a lot of work to test all of those cams.....

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