Re: Toatal Seal Gapless rings, fact or fiction?
[Re: Hemi ragtop]
#2517746
07/04/18 11:24 PM
07/04/18 11:24 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
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master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
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I used many sets. Evidently, some people say they have oil control issues with them. I've never seen that.
If you have an oil burner, it's usually not the rings fault.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: Toatal Seal Gapless rings, fact or fiction?
[Re: Hemi ragtop]
#2517776
07/05/18 01:03 AM
07/05/18 01:03 AM
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crabman173
Unregistered
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crabman173
Unregistered
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Gapless rings were invented to go in dirt track engines so after 3 races they would still have some compression and put off the re-build by a couple weeks--They make a leak down test look Perfect! That part of the advertisement is 100% true--On the dyno they will not make 1 mor HP in the engines I have done--I used to do the circle track 345-360 HP two barrel limited engines Gapless rings were tested again and again--they NEVER made one more HP They leak checked like amazing though
Have true round no taper cylinder bores by using a TQ plate and many other details --use the cheapest rings on the planet and you will have good ring seal use good rings and it can be less resistance and more HP
I do use gapless second rings in my alky / nitro dragster engine because they do keep oil contamination on that fuel eater ( runs gallons through in seconds) to a minimum but they DO NOT make more power or are any better than conventional ring packs on a drag engine for any other reason
This is from observation not reading about it
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Re: Toatal Seal Gapless rings, fact or fiction?
[Re: Hemi ragtop]
#2517833
07/05/18 09:01 AM
07/05/18 09:01 AM
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,051 The Great White North
RAMM
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,051
The Great White North
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Gapless--lol. Complete scam. Have used them a few times-all had oil consumption issues. Never use them or recommend them again. J.Rob
2009 PHR\EMC Competitor 2010 PHR\EMC Competitor 2011 PHR\EMC Competitor 2012 PHR\EMC Competitor 2013 PHR\EMC Competitor 2014 HotRod/EMC Competitor 2015 HotRod/EMC NoShow 2016 HotRod/EMC 3rd place SPEC Bigblock 2018 HotRod/EMC 7th place G3
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Re: Toatal Seal Gapless rings, fact or fiction?
[Re: Hemi ragtop]
#2517983
07/05/18 02:57 PM
07/05/18 02:57 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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Well, I used C&A "gapless" 2nd rings two builds ago (similar to the original Total Seal "gapless 2nd), and Total Seal "gapless" top rings w/ traditional 2nd ring and standard-tension oil rings on the build after that. I can't quantify any benefits from either approach, to be blunt.
With my latest (re)build, I returned to conventional top rings and Napier 2nd rings gapped at .020" & .024" respectively. I also went with slightly lighter-tension oil rings (18# vs 21#), but will be keeping an eye on potential oil consumption issues.
"In theory", I like the "gapless" top ring... but you really pay a premium for them. I'd have to see more independent testing from sources I can put 100% faith in before I'd consider trying them again. Since I haven't, my backup short-block parts collection already includes the same ring pack as what I just put into my latest build.
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Re: Toatal Seal Gapless rings, fact or fiction?
[Re: weedburner]
#2518157
07/05/18 09:14 PM
07/05/18 09:14 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
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master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
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I use gapless rings to my advantage. Because they leak so little, they allow me to use a sealed pcv system to draw a vacuum in the crankcase, which in-turn allows me to get away with 12lb oil rings to pick up a little power/mileage. My setup draws 15"Hg crankcase down the hiway, without help from a vacuum pump. I do have an electric pump for backup when I spray, but it's not needed even for the occasional WOT NA blast on a backroad. Don't you know...gapless top rings don't deal. They are all oil burners. That means they are junk. Now that we dispensed with that, I've use probably a hundred sets of gapless top rings. In everything from street cars, to street/strip junk, bracket engines and some heads up stuff. Not one of them has ever had a oil using issue. Not one. The shop I was at when we tested them still uses them. Every day. He still has had an oil user come back.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: Toatal Seal Gapless rings, fact or fiction?
[Re: madscientist]
#2518197
07/05/18 10:43 PM
07/05/18 10:43 PM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,693 Wichita
GY3
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master
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Wichita
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I use the Mahle pistons with 1.5, 1.5, 3.0mm file-fit rings and my engine never burns a drop of oil between changes.
I've blown it apart twice since the initial build: once for a bad cam and another for a bearing issue (my fault). Honed it, slammed it back together and zero issues. Set top and 2nd ring gap initially at .024.
'63 Dodge 330 11.19 @ 121 mph Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs. 10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.
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Re: Toatal Seal Gapless rings, fact or fiction?
[Re: BradH]
#2518295
07/06/18 08:12 AM
07/06/18 08:12 AM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 984 Tennessee
Hemi ragtop
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 984
Tennessee
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Well, I used C&A "gapless" 2nd rings two builds ago (similar to the original Total Seal "gapless 2nd), and Total Seal "gapless" top rings w/ traditional 2nd ring and standard-tension oil rings on the build after that. I can't quantify any benefits from either approach, to be blunt.
With my latest (re)build, I returned to conventional top rings and Napier 2nd rings gapped at .020" & .024" respectively. I also went with slightly lighter-tension oil rings (18# vs 21#), but will be keeping an eye on potential oil consumption issues.
"In theory", I like the "gapless" top ring... but you really pay a premium for them. I'd have to see more independent testing from sources I can put 100% faith in before I'd consider trying them again. Since I haven't, my backup short-block parts collection already includes the same ring pack as what I just put into my latest build. So how do you like the Napier 2d ring? I read that they are good for oil control.
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Re: Toatal Seal Gapless rings, fact or fiction?
[Re: BradH]
#2518296
07/06/18 08:17 AM
07/06/18 08:17 AM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 984 Tennessee
Hemi ragtop
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OP
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Posts: 984
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What cylinder finish has been successful with the TS "gapless" top rings? I am interested in that also. There IS some recommendations on the TS website. It makes sense because it changes with different hardness of different block/liner.
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Re: Toatal Seal Gapless rings, fact or fiction?
[Re: GY3]
#2518299
07/06/18 08:51 AM
07/06/18 08:51 AM
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,051 The Great White North
RAMM
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super stock
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The Great White North
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I use the Mahle pistons with 1.5, 1.5, 3.0mm file-fit rings and my engine never burns a drop of oil between changes.
I've blown it apart twice since the initial build: once for a bad cam and another for a bearing issue (my fault). Honed it, slammed it back together and zero issues. Set top and 2nd ring gap initially at .024. ^^^^^^The rings that come in their PowerPak piston sets are excellent. They have now gone with a 1.0/1.0/2.0mm ring pack across their lineup and those work excellent as well. J.Rob
Last edited by RAMM; 07/06/18 08:51 AM.
2009 PHR\EMC Competitor 2010 PHR\EMC Competitor 2011 PHR\EMC Competitor 2012 PHR\EMC Competitor 2013 PHR\EMC Competitor 2014 HotRod/EMC Competitor 2015 HotRod/EMC NoShow 2016 HotRod/EMC 3rd place SPEC Bigblock 2018 HotRod/EMC 7th place G3
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Re: Toatal Seal Gapless rings, fact or fiction?
[Re: BradH]
#2518303
07/06/18 08:55 AM
07/06/18 08:55 AM
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,051 The Great White North
RAMM
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super stock
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The Great White North
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What cylinder finish has been successful with the TS "gapless" top rings? If a cylinder finish exists , I haven't found it. I have spent some time on the phone with Keith Jones and have followed his recommendations to a tee even down to the break in oils to stay away from, since he wouldn't outright say which oil to use. J.Rob
2009 PHR\EMC Competitor 2010 PHR\EMC Competitor 2011 PHR\EMC Competitor 2012 PHR\EMC Competitor 2013 PHR\EMC Competitor 2014 HotRod/EMC Competitor 2015 HotRod/EMC NoShow 2016 HotRod/EMC 3rd place SPEC Bigblock 2018 HotRod/EMC 7th place G3
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Re: Toatal Seal Gapless rings, fact or fiction?
[Re: madscientist]
#2518305
07/06/18 09:02 AM
07/06/18 09:02 AM
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,051 The Great White North
RAMM
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super stock
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The Great White North
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Don't you know...gapless top rings don't deal. They are all oil burners. That means they are junk.
Now that we dispensed with that, I've use probably a hundred sets of gapless top rings. In everything from street cars, to street/strip junk, bracket engines and some heads up stuff.
Not one of them has ever had a oil using issue. Not one. The shop I was at when we tested them still uses them. Every day. He still has had an oil user come back.
I would think if the benefits such as increased mileage/power/emissions even in a minute amount existed with just a gapless ring design, you would find them in every OEM application around the globe. J.Rob
2009 PHR\EMC Competitor 2010 PHR\EMC Competitor 2011 PHR\EMC Competitor 2012 PHR\EMC Competitor 2013 PHR\EMC Competitor 2014 HotRod/EMC Competitor 2015 HotRod/EMC NoShow 2016 HotRod/EMC 3rd place SPEC Bigblock 2018 HotRod/EMC 7th place G3
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