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Drag radials, adjustable suspension, manual transmission. #2488571
04/27/18 06:01 AM
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I have a couple questions for you manual transmission racers. While looking at Caltracs and Assassin Bars, it got me thinking about adjustability and lessening the hit on a drag radial in a manual transmission application. I know that something has to give, whether that is the clutch slipping, the tire spinning or parts breaking. Is there enough "softening" of the hit on the tire in the adjustments of traction systems to make a radial tire effective on a manual transmission car?
After seeing "Drag radials and clutches don't mix" numerous times, I'm inclined to think that there is not, but I thought I would ask here, anyway. Thanks!


1969 Dart GTS 340
1969 Super Bee X9 N-96
1969 Coronet R/T X9 N-96
2015 Dodge Dart GT
2019 Ram 2500 Big Horn.
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Re: Drag radials, adjustable suspension, manual transmission. [Re: OhioMopar] #2488582
04/27/18 08:20 AM
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I am betting on a great clutch,(enough slippage, dual disc?) and a very finely tuned suspension system, with every last ounce of rear weight you can put to it. My only experiances have been with an auto trans, but i learned it wasn't hard to blow them off. 50/50 weight distribution and too much launch rpm and it would go from 1.27 to 1.31 to 1.34 60ft, and that was a 14.5 × 33 X15.

Last edited by gregsdart; 04/27/18 08:21 AM.

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Re: Drag radials, adjustable suspension, manual transmission. [Re: OhioMopar] #2488698
04/27/18 02:25 PM
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A lot of the older NHRA stock class Ford racers would let the clutch out at or under 3000 RPM and then hit the throttle all the way on the old bias ply slicks, that may or may not work on a radial work scope
You hear a lot about the limited tire racers using trans brake on small radial, I'm sure they are managing, limiting, power at the hit to get them to go as fast as they are now work
If they can do it with trans brakes you should be able to do that also up work

Last edited by Cab_Burge; 04/27/18 02:28 PM.

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Re: Drag radials, adjustable suspension, manual transmission. [Re: OhioMopar] #2488701
04/27/18 02:49 PM
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The assassin bars are much more adjustable. With a stick a radial you can't buy a shock that is too good. I hate to hear the term "clutch slip" because it isn't really slip but the controlled application of the clutch, which is an entirely different thing than slip.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: Drag radials, adjustable suspension, manual transmission. [Re: OhioMopar] #2488719
04/27/18 04:34 PM
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The radials basically need to dead hook, as they will tolerate very little wheelspeed. Here's why suspension adjustments alone are not the answer...

Lets imagine no clutch slip at all, engine rpm with a dead hook on the starting line would equal "0". For simplicity, lets say a car has a constant acceleration rate in 1st gear and the potential to reach it's 1/2 shift point of 7000 rpm at about 2 seconds into the run. If starting line rpm equals "0", and rpm 2.0 seconds in equals 7000 and acceleration rate is constant, at 0.5 seconds engine rpm would be 1750, at 1 second in engine rpm would equal 3500, and at 1.5 seconds 5250 with the tires dead hooked and no clutch slip at all. Obviously dead hooking alone is not the answer, as our engines don't make any power at zero rpm. We NEED controlled clutch slip to keep those radials dead hooked without dragging the engine down too far, as there's just no way that suspension adjustments alone can absorb enough engine rpm over a long enough time frame to make the radials work.

Here's how the clutch can help- the longer it slips, the more time the car has to gain speed before that clutch locks up, which in turn means engine rpm won't be dragged down as far. As a simplified example, lets apply the above clutch to a magical 440 that has a completely flat torque curve of 600ftlbs from 1500 to 5500 rpm. If that 440's clutch only slips for 0.5 second, rpm gets dragged down to 1750 after launch and will only be making 199.92hp at that point. If that clutch were to slip for a full second, rpm only dips to 3500rpm which effectively doubles it's power production to 399.84hp thru the low point of the bog. In the real world the difference would be even more dramatic, as it's unlikely the 440 would be making 600ftlbs at 1750.

My ClutchTamer slipper device makes it possible to choose a clutch with plenty of torque capacity, then "dial in" longer clutch slip as needed to raise rpm without reducing that clutch's overall holding ability. There may be other ways to make a radial work with a manual trans, but my way works pretty good.

Grant

Re: Drag radials, adjustable suspension, manual transmission. [Re: OhioMopar] #2488813
04/27/18 08:36 PM
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They work with a trans brake. Basically a slipping clutch if you think about it. Treat it the same.
Doug

Re: Drag radials, adjustable suspension, manual transmission. [Re: weedburner] #2490226
05/01/18 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted By weedburner
The radials basically need to dead hook, as they will tolerate very little wheelspeed. Here's why suspension adjustments alone are not the answer...

Lets imagine no clutch slip at all, engine rpm with a dead hook on the starting line would equal "0". For simplicity, lets say a car has a constant acceleration rate in 1st gear and the potential to reach it's 1/2 shift point of 7000 rpm at about 2 seconds into the run. If starting line rpm equals "0", and rpm 2.0 seconds in equals 7000 and acceleration rate is constant, at 0.5 seconds engine rpm would be 1750, at 1 second in engine rpm would equal 3500, and at 1.5 seconds 5250 with the tires dead hooked and no clutch slip at all. Obviously dead hooking alone is not the answer, as our engines don't make any power at zero rpm. We NEED controlled clutch slip to keep those radials dead hooked without dragging the engine down too far, as there's just no way that suspension adjustments alone can absorb enough engine rpm over a long enough time frame to make the radials work.

Here's how the clutch can help- the longer it slips, the more time the car has to gain speed before that clutch locks up, which in turn means engine rpm won't be dragged down as far. As a simplified example, lets apply the above clutch to a magical 440 that has a completely flat torque curve of 600ftlbs from 1500 to 5500 rpm. If that 440's clutch only slips for 0.5 second, rpm gets dragged down to 1750 after launch and will only be making 199.92hp at that point. If that clutch were to slip for a full second, rpm only dips to 3500rpm which effectively doubles it's power production to 399.84hp thru the low point of the bog. In the real world the difference would be even more dramatic, as it's unlikely the 440 would be making 600ftlbs at 1750.

My ClutchTamer slipper device makes it possible to choose a clutch with plenty of torque capacity, then "dial in" longer clutch slip as needed to raise rpm without reducing that clutch's overall holding ability. There may be other ways to make a radial work with a manual trans, but my way works pretty good.

Grant

That's a good explanation.


1969 Dart GTS 340
1969 Super Bee X9 N-96
1969 Coronet R/T X9 N-96
2015 Dodge Dart GT
2019 Ram 2500 Big Horn.
Looking for the original block for my Bee. The last 4 are 7449
Re: Drag radials, adjustable suspension, manual transmission. [Re: OhioMopar] #2490278
05/01/18 05:31 AM
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I know quite a few guys who have tried to make it work, and put so much effort into it that they put data collection in and started comparing the driveshaft and wheel speed to engine rpm and came up with this conclusion: "Drag Radials and Manual Transmissions don't mix"

But, hey, if you want to beat your head against that wall...go for it.


"Livin' in a powder keg and givin' off sparks" 4 Street cars, 5 Race engines
Re: Drag radials, adjustable suspension, manual transmission. [Re: OhioMopar] #2490294
05/01/18 08:59 AM
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The clutch tamer is a very good tool, but it is usually used to keep from breaking drivetrain components because of opposing forces (crankshaft inertia vs tire friction). A bigger help would be the right clutch. A Long style pressure plate has a soft hit with increasing pressure as rpm increases. You can get plates with adjustable base pressure, and also adjustable counterweights. They can be set up basically to run like a go cart clutch. I've never run drag radials, but I've heard their traction is like an on/off switch, so dialing in a clutch is going to be tricky, no matter what you try. A lower rpm launch with a light base pressure clutch plate and moderate counterweight sounds like it's in line for what you need.


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Re: Drag radials, adjustable suspension, manual transmission. [Re: sgcuda] #2490455
05/01/18 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted By sgcuda
The clutch tamer is a very good tool, but it is usually used to keep from breaking drivetrain components because of opposing forces (crankshaft inertia vs tire friction). A bigger help would be the right clutch. A Long style pressure plate has a soft hit with increasing pressure as rpm increases. You can get plates with adjustable base pressure, and also adjustable counterweights. They can be set up basically to run like a go cart clutch. I've never run drag radials, but I've heard their traction is like an on/off switch, so dialing in a clutch is going to be tricky, no matter what you try. A lower rpm launch with a light base pressure clutch plate and moderate counterweight sounds like it's in line for what you need.


The "lower rpm launch with a light base pressure clutch plate and moderate counterweight" to make the radials launch is a compromise that you don't have to make. There's also the fact that a SoftLoc style launch setup still hits too hard for radials after a WOT shift. Just look at the graphs, there's wheelspeed after the shifts that radials won't tolerate.

The ClutchTamer allows you to launch much higher with zero wheelspin, all while losing less than 1500rpm. Basically you can have a dead hooked hi rpm launch without ever dipping below your torque peak. Some don't even use a 2-step, they launch right off a single stage rev limiter and still dead hook. The ClutchTamer can also get you that slip after the shift that radials require, just bounce the pedal off the stop when shifting. This also improves recovery after the shift by 3-500 rpm, allowing you to use a diaphragm PP and still get shift recovery benefits similar to an adjustable SoftLoc setup but without that post-shift initial wheelspin. A 500 rpm improvement in recovery can mean an extra 40hp from the engine for a few tenths of a second after a shift. It's not unusual for a car to end up quicker overall using the clutch pedal vs clutchless shifts when using the ClutchTamer, even if using bias slicks.

Grant


Last edited by weedburner; 05/01/18 02:52 PM.
Re: Drag radials, adjustable suspension, manual transmission. [Re: MoparBilly] #2490639
05/01/18 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted By MoparBilly

But, hey, if you want to beat your head against that wall...go for it.

Just trying to learn the issues with it. Knowledge is power. It also helps to learn from others experience.


1969 Dart GTS 340
1969 Super Bee X9 N-96
1969 Coronet R/T X9 N-96
2015 Dodge Dart GT
2019 Ram 2500 Big Horn.
Looking for the original block for my Bee. The last 4 are 7449
Re: Drag radials, adjustable suspension, manual transmission. [Re: OhioMopar] #2490665
05/01/18 10:53 PM
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Mike (69 lawndart/Moparts) Tried to switch this car to the drag radials, but never was quite happy with it.

Drag Week 2013


"Livin' in a powder keg and givin' off sparks" 4 Street cars, 5 Race engines
Re: Drag radials, adjustable suspension, manual transmission. [Re: OhioMopar] #2490718
05/02/18 12:52 AM
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His Cuda and Dart have been on DRs since DW 06.He fought the fight believe me.

Re: Drag radials, adjustable suspension, manual transmission. [Re: OhioMopar] #2490733
05/02/18 01:18 AM
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I'm pushing buttons for the last 30 years with bias ply,this was a cool read as I have never heard of a clutch tamer.How does that work instead of manual clutch adjustments? work


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Re: Drag radials, adjustable suspension, manual transmission. [Re: hemi-itis] #2490764
05/02/18 02:55 AM
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Originally Posted By hemi-itis
I'm pushing buttons for the last 30 years with bias ply,this was a cool read as I have never heard of a clutch tamer.How does that work instead of manual clutch adjustments? work


With the typical adjustable clutch, you are chasing track conditions when making race day adjustments. Basically, it's all about getting the right balance of clutch slip and tire spin to keep rpm up where you are making power. Then if the car is also driven on the street, you will need to manually crank up the base to keep that clutch from slipping too much when using the throttle at low rpms. Switching from race mode to street mode can be kind of a hassle, usually requires going under the car, a jack, tools, etc.

With the ClutchTamer, you are dead hooking and adjusting the intensity of clutch's engagement to keep engine rpm up where you are making power. Engine power usually doesn't change much from run to run, so 'Tamer adjustment usually doesn't change much either. Also no need to change settings between street/strip modes, and when you do need to change settings you can do it from the driver's seat.

Grant

Last edited by weedburner; 05/02/18 02:58 AM.
Re: Drag radials, adjustable suspension, manual transmission. [Re: MoparBilly] #2490790
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Originally Posted By MoparBilly
"Drag Radials and Manual Transmissions don't mix"

But, hey, if you want to beat your head against that wall...go for it.


But it feels so good when I stop...

Not sure why anyone would want to make life miserable, when they know something proven either works or it doesn't?

As has been said, it's not the launch that messes up DR's, it's the shock to the system on the shifts, and DR's need that steady transition, that a auto gives.


69 GTX 68 Road Runner
Re: Drag radials, adjustable suspension, manual transmission. [Re: OhioMopar] #2491891
05/04/18 11:42 AM
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I have tried this on both of my cars, On the Cuda I could dead hook the tire for about 10ft, it would pick the front tires up about 2-4 inches then when the motor reached the point where it was making some power it would start spinning the tire and then the tire shake! WOW I will never put drag radials on either of my cars again, talk about tearing stuff up. The Dart I had a little more luck with its 350 lbs lighter than the Cuda. first thing you will need to do is lower the front spring mounting point as low as you can, take the hit out of the tire. Then you leave at a low rpm and let the clutch slid up to the lock up point, this is where things get tricky if the tire starts tire starts to spin just stuff the clutch in. If it doesn't then you good to go provided you don't knock the tires loose on the gear change. I will tell you that the base pressure was low and the there was a lot of counter weight on the PP. Also the comment about the best double adjustable rear shock is very true.

Re: Drag radials, adjustable suspension, manual transmission. [Re: OhioMopar] #2492206
05/04/18 10:40 PM
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Do they make a clutch tamer that fits a 70-74 Dart/Duster? If so who sells it?

Re: Drag radials, adjustable suspension, manual transmission. [Re: 69 lawndart] #2492574
05/05/18 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted By 69 lawndart
I have tried this on both of my cars, On the Cuda I could dead hook the tire for about 10ft, it would pick the front tires up about 2-4 inches then when the motor reached the point where it was making some power it would start spinning the tire and then the tire shake! WOW I will never put drag radials on either of my cars again, talk about tearing stuff up. The Dart I had a little more luck with its 350 lbs lighter than the Cuda. first thing you will need to do is lower the front spring mounting point as low as you can, take the hit out of the tire. Then you leave at a low rpm and let the clutch slid up to the lock up point, this is where things get tricky if the tire starts tire starts to spin just stuff the clutch in. If it doesn't then you good to go provided you don't knock the tires loose on the gear change. I will tell you that the base pressure was low and the there was a lot of counter weight on the PP. Also the comment about the best double adjustable rear shock is very true.

Do you run slicks or a bias ply DOT tire? Are both/either street cars?
I really enjoy banging gears, but I'm getting the feeling there is a compromise in there with driving a fairly powerful car on the street and having it run good times at the track.


1969 Dart GTS 340
1969 Super Bee X9 N-96
1969 Coronet R/T X9 N-96
2015 Dodge Dart GT
2019 Ram 2500 Big Horn.
Looking for the original block for my Bee. The last 4 are 7449
Re: Drag radials, adjustable suspension, manual transmission. [Re: OhioMopar] #2492577
05/05/18 11:06 PM
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Having been involved with guys who have both, all I can say is comparing stick cars to auto cars, even with a brake, is apples to oranges.

Some of the stick guys use the dead hook approach, others use the turn the tire approach, none use a radial.

Last edited by CMcAllister; 05/05/18 11:08 PM.

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