Re: shaft mounted aluminum rocker arms side play
[Re: 1mean340]
#2472768
03/27/18 02:34 PM
03/27/18 02:34 PM
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Posts: 3,544 Syracuse,NY
CompWedgeEngines
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There is no place in that set up where you should have 1/4" of side free play.You want somewhere between .015-.020 clearance/end play between pairs. If you are moving the rockers so much that it changes the lash, thats a problem.Fix it before you run it. W2 pushrod angles are bad enough, without them being self adjusting.
RIP Monte Smith
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Re: shaft mounted aluminum rocker arms side play
[Re: 1mean340]
#2472776
03/27/18 02:41 PM
03/27/18 02:41 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
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madscientist
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You also need to make sure the rocker is centered over the valve, from front to rear. If that means milling the hold downs, it's what you have to do.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: shaft mounted aluminum rocker arms side play
[Re: 1mean340]
#2472810
03/27/18 03:25 PM
03/27/18 03:25 PM
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1mean340
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Eek, the motor was already run for about 500 miles (those pics were prior to first startup hence the clean ports). I trusted my engine builder with the assembly, only noticed this when I was about to adjust hotlash after the first oil change.
I will check on the front to back centering, I really hope that's right or this could turn into a real PITA 😡
Is less than .015 of clearance ok? It looks like some don't have shims, and the cylinder#1 pair I don't think even has that much. I assume I'll need at least that for expansion so they don't rub.
FWIW this is a low rpm engine, won't see over 6500 (supercharged). The heads/valvetrain I bought on here from a member a few years back, I didn't know much about setting these up so I just gave it to my engine builder to do along with the rest of the motor. Only noticed a tiny bit of metal on the drain plug during the first oil change , no sign of anything crazy but i'll definitely check the push rod clearance was figuring my builder already did all this for how much I paid 🙁
Last edited by 1mean340; 03/27/18 03:26 PM.
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Re: shaft mounted aluminum rocker arms side play
[Re: 1mean340]
#2472843
03/27/18 04:38 PM
03/27/18 04:38 PM
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Joined: Oct 2008
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1mean340
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Thanks cab! Tell me about it haha, between FITECH issues, supercharger belt issues and now this, I got this car fired up late summer and it hasn't been able to make get even one clean WOT one gear pull after working on it every weekend.
It definitely didn't look like any more metal than I have normally seen on new motors so I wasn't too worried. Next oil change I'll cut the filter as well.
This setup has definitely been more than I bargained for trying to get everything to work right.
this just bothers me because I cut a pretty big check to my engine builder/machinist to assemble the engine and this seems like a pretty big thing to overlook. If it's just a matter of shimming, I don't mind, but if roller tips aren't centered front to back on the valve and the perches have to be milled I am going to have to go back to him and ask what's up. I normally expect a lot of bumps in the road and still have a ton of kinks to work out on my home built procharger setup and FITECH tuning issues so it really sucks having to take time out to fix stuff that I paid to have done.
but if I wanted easy, cheap and slow I would have gotten into marathon running so I'm not complaining, just venting a little LOL!
Last edited by 1mean340; 03/27/18 04:38 PM.
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Re: shaft mounted aluminum rocker arms side play
[Re: 1mean340]
#2472865
03/27/18 05:36 PM
03/27/18 05:36 PM
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Talk to Mike @ B3racing about the geometry
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI 512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim 2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
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Re: shaft mounted aluminum rocker arms side play
[Re: CSK]
#2472867
03/27/18 05:39 PM
03/27/18 05:39 PM
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Talk to Mike @ B3racing about the geometry ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ You just know the geometry is put correct. It never is.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: shaft mounted aluminum rocker arms side play
[Re: 1mean340]
#2472869
03/27/18 05:42 PM
03/27/18 05:42 PM
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polyspheric
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Another day, another waste of my time.
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Re: shaft mounted aluminum rocker arms side play
[Re: 1mean340]
#2472937
03/27/18 07:21 PM
03/27/18 07:21 PM
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MR_P_BODY
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How thick are the shims at the bottom of the springs.. they look real thick.. what is the installed height Also show your rockers at base and full lift
Last edited by MR_P_BODY; 03/27/18 07:24 PM.
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Re: shaft mounted aluminum rocker arms side play
[Re: 1mean340]
#2472943
03/27/18 07:35 PM
03/27/18 07:35 PM
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1mean340
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OK, well I may have over-reacted a little on the clearances. The gap between the cylinder 5 rockers that I thought was 1/4" was actually about 36 thousands when I checked it with the feeler gauge. it felt like a lot more...yes this is embarassing LOL
as far as the roller tips being centered forward to back, they appear to be good but I am going to try to snap some pics of them because it is hard to see with the motor in the car. I can't get my head low enough to really get a good view.
My builder said the geometry was funky but he didn't think it would be an issue on a low rpm engine. The last engine the ran on looked about the same and he was taking it up to 7500 IIRC. Not saying it's good, but maybe good enough? I really don't know. I'm just going by what I'm being told.
Poly, makes sense that the lash was changing as i slid the rocker side to side, as you said, it would be changing the pushrod angle as you moved it. I take it the large 36 thousanths clearance is causing that as the others barely move
What I am also worried about is can they be too tight side to side? Most of these rockers seem extremely tight side to side. I mean you can move them freely up and down when they are off the valve but some of them I can't feel any side to side movement. I need to find the rest of my feeler gauges to check but I'm pretty sure most of them are less than .015 of clearance. I could be wrong though, as I just called 39 thousandths a 1/4 inch LOL
Mr P body, i will snap some pics of that.
Last edited by 1mean340; 03/27/18 07:36 PM.
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Re: shaft mounted aluminum rocker arms side play
[Re: 1mean340]
#2472945
03/27/18 07:38 PM
03/27/18 07:38 PM
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1mean340
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And when I say this thing won't see over 6500rpm's I mean that. I plan to shift at around 6000 and set the rev limited pretty soon after it. It's a 295cfm flowing head, indy single plane, D1SC procharger with intercooler on E85 on a not so crazy bottom end (factory forged crank, H beam rods, stud girdle...that's it) so I figure it may be able to take boost, but not RPM's. It'll make more power than I need at 6000 with 8PSI so I don't plan on really revving it much higher.
Last edited by 1mean340; 03/27/18 07:38 PM.
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Re: shaft mounted aluminum rocker arms side play
[Re: 1mean340]
#2473570
03/28/18 10:21 PM
03/28/18 10:21 PM
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RPM has ZERO to do with rocker arm geometry. Before you do anything further, get ahold of Mike at B3 racing engines (b3racingengines.com) and let him help you fix the geometry BEFORE you bother to do anything else.
Bad geometry is bad geometry. RPM means nothing.
I have typed this out so many times in so many places it feels beyond redundant. I can tell you that a great number of engine builders have no idea about rocker arm geometry, let alone rocker arm geometry with a shaft system. I am certainly not an expert, but I learned a long time ago the hard way that you must fix it. It's crazy to say my RPM's are low so I can let it slide.
In 38 years of doing this I have seen more destruction and broken parts from rocker geometry and general valve train issues than almost anything else.
I can tell you that when you fix your geometry, you will have to buy longer pushrods.
Don't put it off. Fix it now.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: shaft mounted aluminum rocker arms side play
[Re: 1mean340]
#2481651
04/12/18 02:37 PM
04/12/18 02:37 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
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Your engine builder is WRONG and the geometry isn't correct. Is it good enough? Maybe. Is it correct? Nope.
Why push it? You've spent all the time and money. Fix the geometry. If the engine builder thinks half assed geometry is good enough, I'd be finding a new engine builder.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: shaft mounted aluminum rocker arms side play
[Re: madscientist]
#2481660
04/12/18 02:46 PM
04/12/18 02:46 PM
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1mean340
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Your engine builder is WRONG and the geometry isn't correct. Is it good enough? Maybe. Is it correct? Nope.
Why push it? You've spent all the time and money. Fix the geometry. If the engine builder thinks half assed geometry is good enough, I'd be finding a new engine builder. He definitely didn't say it was correct, but didn't seem worried about it having problems for my setup knowing that I was trying to make this all work on a tight budget. Not arguing with you, just specifying what he said. I spent way more on this engine than I ever planned to, not that I expect a good build to be cheap...but this was a terrible foundation in the first place to do what I wanted to do with it. I was mainly just throwing it together to have fun with using parts I had lying around or bought second hand for cheap and I was just planning on running it until I can get my other LSX powered project car finished. After that, I was hoping to do a gen 3 hemi in this car or a 5.3 LM7 I've been using for mockup in my LSX car. Most of my friends are making more power with their junkyard 5.3's than I'd ever be confident pushing through this LA block. I'm listening though, and taking everything I am hearing into consideration. What would be involved with fixing the geometry? Not really sure how I'd go about doing that, as of now there is no interference with any parts, but it looks like if those pushrods straightened out even a little bit more then the heads would have to be clearanced. That's just not going to happen. I'd most likely try to sell the LA stuff off and start over with a late model, it would save me a lot of headaches in other ways as well as I'm still dealing with major FITECH tuning issues on E85 and blower belt alignment/tension issues on the procharger bracket I built. If there is something I can do that would be fairly easy/cheap, then I'll do it.
Last edited by 1mean340; 04/12/18 02:56 PM.
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Re: shaft mounted aluminum rocker arms side play
[Re: 1mean340]
#2481670
04/12/18 03:05 PM
04/12/18 03:05 PM
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CMcAllister
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The angle of the intake pushrod is going to load the intake rocker towards the exhaust rocker. On my W2s, I used Crane rockers with aluminum blocks from Arrow or someone. Shims were used to adjust play, center the roller on the valve and also as thrust washers. Initial set-up, without pushrods, starts at the center and works out, keeping in mind the intakes rockers are being pushed toward the exhausts. I kept my clearance snug. As long as no parts are replaced, this should only need to be done initially. Beyond that, just verify clearances and alignment, and adjust the blocks when installing to maintain that when putting it back together.
That's how I figured out how to do it. Ran them for years to 7200+, with the oil restricted to the heads, and never had an issue.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: shaft mounted aluminum rocker arms side play
[Re: 1mean340]
#2481711
04/12/18 04:25 PM
04/12/18 04:25 PM
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Your engine builder is WRONG and the geometry isn't correct. Is it good enough? Maybe. Is it correct? Nope.
Why push it? You've spent all the time and money. Fix the geometry. If the engine builder thinks half assed geometry is good enough, I'd be finding a new engine builder. He definitely didn't say it was correct, but didn't seem worried about it having problems for my setup knowing that I was trying to make this all work on a tight budget. Not arguing with you, just specifying what he said. I spent way more on this engine than I ever planned to, not that I expect a good build to be cheap...but this was a terrible foundation in the first place to do what I wanted to do with it. I was mainly just throwing it together to have fun with using parts I had lying around or bought second hand for cheap and I was just planning on running it until I can get my other LSX powered project car finished. After that, I was hoping to do a gen 3 hemi in this car or a 5.3 LM7 I've been using for mockup in my LSX car. Most of my friends are making more power with their junkyard 5.3's than I'd ever be confident pushing through this LA block. I'm listening though, and taking everything I am hearing into consideration. What would be involved with fixing the geometry? Not really sure how I'd go about doing that, as of now there is no interference with any parts, but it looks like if those pushrods straightened out even a little bit more then the heads would have to be clearanced. That's just not going to happen. I'd most likely try to sell the LA stuff off and start over with a late model, it would save me a lot of headaches in other ways as well as I'm still dealing with major FITECH tuning issues on E85 and blower belt alignment/tension issues on the procharger bracket I built. If there is something I can do that would be fairly easy/cheap, then I'll do it. I get the budget. I've also been doing this a long time, and it makes me sick when a guy says it's good enough when the fix is so simple. Before the B3 system the only alternative was to mill the stands and use offset stands and blocks. Most guys just lived with what they had because they didn't want to spend the money. Mikes system is so simple even I can measure for it and use it. The worst part of the job is grinding out the bolt holes in the shaft so you can move it back. IIRC Mike will do it, but you have to pay. Most guys with a die grinder can do it rather easily. You are too close not to fix it now. Why should the Chrysler guys deal with [censored] geometry? The GM won't do it. Why should we? Most guys think centering the sweep is correct. It's not. You want the sweep as narrow as possible. I remember when Indy came out with their heads and they had cupped stands. I remembering calling them and asking them how in the hell am I going to correct the geometry without a bunch of milling and fabrication? Their exact answer was, and I've never forgotten this, was; if you change the geometry on our heads you are too dumb to own them. To this day, I have never bought a part from them. I've worked on their stuff, but I won't buy it. Take your time. Learn as much about rocker geometry as you can. And then fix yours. It's really quite simple now. And worth the effort.
Last edited by madscientist; 04/12/18 04:29 PM.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: shaft mounted aluminum rocker arms side play
[Re: krautrock]
#2481712
04/12/18 04:26 PM
04/12/18 04:26 PM
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do we need to see the wipe pattern to determine if the geometry is correct? I don't. Haven't seen one that was correct yet without fixing it.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: shaft mounted aluminum rocker arms side play
[Re: 1mean340]
#2482170
04/13/18 02:20 PM
04/13/18 02:20 PM
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1mean340
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Mad, thanks for your input. I contacted Mike at B3 and he asked me to take several measurements which I will today and then send them back to him so he can let me know how badly the geometry is out.
I will most likely be fixing it pending what mike says about the geometry/kit I am probably going to fire it up today just to see if I can straighten out the FITECH tuning issues, I figure a few hours of run time hopefully won't hurt anything with that geometry (it already ran about 500 miles like that).
Didn't mean to seem resistant to changing it, truth is this car still has a ton to be sorted out with spitting blower belts at WOT and unable to go more than half throttle without falling flat because of the FITECH dumping fuel. If everything ran good, I'd be happy to fix it, but it sucks putting more time and money into the valvetrain when I don't know how much it's going to take to fix the other issues and make a clean pass.
Truth be told, I am strongly thinking about a Hellcat swap. I didn't originally because at the time of starting this the crate engine was still in the 20k price range and a stand alone harness wasn't offered, but now it's all out there. It's what I always wanted to do with the car, could support the power I was hoping to make and won't be a time bomb like a factory LA block making it. I might as well fix this though, as even if I sell it, I'd feel better if it were correct. Hellcat would involve me selling off the parts I have for my other project car but that car's a chevy so it seems totally worth it haha
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Re: shaft mounted aluminum rocker arms side play
[Re: 1mean340]
#2482192
04/13/18 02:59 PM
04/13/18 02:59 PM
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Mad, thanks for your input. I contacted Mike at B3 and he asked me to take several measurements which I will today and then send them back to him so he can let me know how badly the geometry is out.
I will most likely be fixing it pending what mike says about the geometry/kit I am probably going to fire it up today just to see if I can straighten out the FITECH tuning issues, I figure a few hours of run time hopefully won't hurt anything with that geometry (it already ran about 500 miles like that).
Didn't mean to seem resistant to changing it, truth is this car still has a ton to be sorted out with spitting blower belts at WOT and unable to go more than half throttle without falling flat because of the FITECH dumping fuel. If everything ran good, I'd be happy to fix it, but it sucks putting more time and money into the valvetrain when I don't know how much it's going to take to fix the other issues and make a clean pass.
Truth be told, I am strongly thinking about a Hellcat swap. I didn't originally because at the time of starting this the crate engine was still in the 20k price range and a stand alone harness wasn't offered, but now it's all out there. It's what I always wanted to do with the car, could support the power I was hoping to make and won't be a time bomb like a factory LA block making it. I might as well fix this though, as even if I sell it, I'd feel better if it were correct. Hellcat would involve me selling off the parts I have for my other project car but that car's a chevy so it seems totally worth it haha Glad you are working on it. Would you mind posting how far off your geometry is, so that others may see what it is? It would maybe help someone to understand geometry better. If you keep it long enough, I think you'll find the valve lash will not move nearly as much, springs and your valve job will last longer and believe it or not, the valve train will make a bit more noise. So don't worry if your valve train sounds a bit noisy. Keep us posted please!!!!
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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