Hi all,
I am trying to decide on Victor or Trick flow heads.
The engine is a 500" 440 based engine with 11.5:1 compression. I have a solid roller cam forget the specs right now. I have a Super Victor intake and a 1050 Dominator. Crank trigger with a 7al ignition. The converter is an 8" 5500 in a 727. The rear is a Dana with 4:30 gears. The car is strip only and weighs 2800 with driver. Not sure which heads to look at. So I am putting this out to get opinions. I know the compression is down a bit but the engine was going to be used as a street strip thing when originally built.

Thanks, Digger73 (Mike)

For that combo, I would go with the trick flow heads.

Brian

Why the Trick Flow? I am so up in the air that I am just fishing for information at this point. The season is getting closer and I want to get this settled so I can race...

Thanks,
Digger73 (Mike)

If you want a simple to build race engine then get the Trick Flow heads. If you want some pain and suffering then go with the Victor heads.

Thanks for the input Andy.
I forgot to put in the original post that I am now set up for standard 440 ports. Is the choice still for the Trick Flows?

Thanks,
Digger73 (Mike)

If you want the car to go as fast as possible go with the biggest port size heads you can get like the Trick Flow 270 or the Indy SR M.W. or 440-1 with the best intake to match the head port size
I have a set of Victor M.W. heads on my bracket motor, I'm not impress with them
The next motor for that car has a set of CNC ported big valve 440-1 with a Jesel paired shaft rocker arms on them
How fast do you want to go and how soon?
Don't forget that the head combustion chamber size and head gaskets used affect the true compression ratio

Might depend on the cam size? The Trick Flow 270 heads best offered valve spring package says 0.700" max lift? I'm not sure what rocker arms they use or recommend, probably a good question for Andy F.
The price is not too bad considering the heads are assembled with all the valve spring parts.

The Victors Max Wedge don't come assembled, and out of the box don't flow as much as the Trick Flow heads. Ported they do flow more, close to 400 cfm. Check the Hughes CNC ported version. They will end up costing alot more once you get into setting up the valve spring package and rocker arms. That extra 50 cfm is likely to end up costing at least $1,000+ over the cost of the Trick Flow heads.

Thanks all for the comments and suggestions. I found the cam information.
Comp Cams 315R grind duration @.050 Int. 280. Exh. 284. Lobe lift Int. .420 Exh. .401. I have 1.5 Crane Gold roller rockers. The head gasket compressed height is .051". They are Fel-pro black. The compression ratio was calculated using these head gaskets and Stealth heads. I know the Stealth heads are not the best but they are what I could afford at the time. I am now stepping up to a better head package so that is why the post. If it helps the Stealth heads have been worked over pretty good they flow 292 @.600 lift on the intake.

Thanks,

Digger73 (Mike)

I just gotta ask why does nobody like or recommend the B1BS head? Hope I am not asking in the wrong place.

Std port Victors, when properly modified work very well....... But they are pretty far down the "bang for the buck" list.

Much higher up that particular list, while staying with the Victor theme would be the std port CNC ported Pro Comp head.
Buy them bare, have the valve job redone, install quality parts..... And you'd be good to go.

However, if you really want to wake up that 500" motor, especially for drag use only......... just step away from the std port heads.

Get the TF 270's and a MW manifold to go with them.

Compared to what else is available now, they just aren't very high on the bang for the buck list anymore.
They have a few quirks that some other choices don't........ And IMO, they don't do anything "better" than other current choices.

That, along with them being about the worst for header fitment/spark plug access in a regular door car doesn't help the sales volume.

They can make good power and are well made......I just feel for whatever the application.....some other head would make a better option.

Standard port would be the Trick Flow 240 heads. Max Wedge is the Trick Flow 270 heads. If you have a standard port Super Victor then it could be opened up to a MW Super Victor without a huge amount of work or just sell it and buy a MW Super Victor. The MW setup would make more power in a race car, especially with a Dominator carb and a big cam. The 270 heads are also easier to work with since they overlap the valley plate for a good seal. The 240 heads require some "trickery" to get them to seal to a solid valley plate.

Trick Flow 270 heads right out of the box with a Super Victor intake, a big roller cam and a Dominator carb should make a solid 700 hp. It should be a bolt together setup.

Here is a comparison between the heads: http://www.hotrod.com/articles/dyno-day-trick-flow-270-mopar-heads/

I'll have this 470 with 270 heads back on the dyno next week testing some new valve springs. I'm shooting for 800 hp on pump gas so my compression is less than yours.

So if I am reading this right the 270 heads are the way for me to go. I will need to get new rocker arms and intake to make the swap. Would you recommend 1.6 over 1.5? As long as I am having to redo the manifold is there a better choice than the Super Victor?

Thanks,
Digger73 (Mike)

BTW, Andy would you like to buy your Super Victor std port back? LOL

What rocker arms do you have now? The 270 uses standard rocker arms so what you have might work.

The standard port SV will work with the Trick Flow heads but you'll give up a little power. If you're just sorting out a new combination then run your existing intake until you get the car sorted out and then put a MW intake on it. It isn't going to make a huge difference, maybe 30 hp or so.

Andy,

Thank you so much. This is great information. I was under the impression that I had to change the intake to a MW for the heads to work period.
I also thought that with the MW runners that the rockers had to be upgraded to offset intakes. You just made my decision that much easier. 270 Trick Flow here I come!

Thanks,
Digger73 (Mike)

Forgot to add, I have Crane gold roller 1.5 rockers now.

As was mentioned, the std port SV can be opened up to MW size.
No need to buy another manifold.

Read the 270 articles that I've written and study the pictures. You'll see that I used standard offset rocker arms on the 270 heads and that I've used a standard port intake on the 270 heads.

It might not be "ideal" but it can get you up and running and then you can upgrade from there.

We are all talking about the same thing, right?

A "Super Victor", #2891........ Not a "Victor" #2954.

From what I can gather, the 2893(MW size SV) is just a 2891 with the port openings CNC'd out to the MW size.

I think the Trick flow heads a are a good bang for the buck head. I like the 240 I got, but that is a mild street engine. For a 500"+ engine with a big cam, that is used for racing, the larger ports is what you want.

On the B1BS head question, The heads are a nice quality part, but are not as price competitive as most of the other heads.
For Example the basic unported (standard port opening) B1Bs head only flows 295 cfm and costs $1,069.84 bare, $1,354.03 with springs and steel retainers, and $1,465.40 with springs and Ti retainers. Price per each head.
The thing with the standard B1Bs is it has nice small 65cc chambers that help boost compression on stock engines, but it also can make compression too high in many performance or stroker builds.
The B1BS head also requires an offset intake rocker arm design adding cost to a head that unported flows about near same as an Edelbrock RPM or milidly ported Stealth head that do not require the offset rocker arms.

The STS CNC ported version of the B1BS flows 348 cfm, and costs $2,475.15 with springs and Ti retainers. That is the cost for one cylinder head.
It had been awhile since I looked into those heads, but I thought they are opened up to Max Wedge port size, and the chambers opened up too a larger 80 CC volume.

The CNC ported B1BS is actually more expensive than the B1 MO head that flows 396 cfm, and costs $2,032.58 with springs and Ti retainers.

I haven't look at the price of the Stage V hemi conversion heads in several years, but likely not much more than the STS CNC ported heads?

Roughly twice as much as a TF270 with comparable hardware, and it flows about the same...... but doesn't require the offset rockers or special headers.

Yes I have the Super Victor #2891. In fact I bought it from Andy a few years ago. You fellas have made my day. I was thinking that to change heads was a money pit that my better half would squawk about. If I can use my bolt on parts I have then I will have new heads on the way shortly.
If I decide to port the manifold, how far up will I need to go in the runner?

Digger73 (Mike)

About the only reason to use B1BS heads these days is if you work for the Koffels or Brodix. Other than that I can't think of a single reason why anyone would spend twice the money for something that requires custom headers and special rockers and doesn't make any more power. Koffel and Brodix should just admit it was an evolutionary dead end and move on to better things.

I see the same thing going on in the FE world. Over time, guys have created expensive FE heads that work okay, but now the new Trick Flow head is much less expensive and just as good or better.

My heads didn't get close to that number. OOTB. Mine were in the 270 range, ootb.

They are respectable after DP worked them. But no way Id buy another set, ever.

They had their place...many moons ago.

My good friend has been running 8.60’s-8.80’s for years in his charger so B1BS heads in the right hands work pretty good

I think the OP should consider a different cam to go with the new heads, etc.

What cam would you recommend?
Right now I am thinking that I need to concentrate on the heads then do more upgrades at a later date. I was thinking about some 1.6 or even 1.7 rockers with the cam that I have?

Digger73 (Mike)

That cam is way bigger than I have ran in any of my own bracket motors that are above 500 C.I. with both 440 size and all out CNC ported 440-1 heads I'm thinking maybe 260 to 275 @.050 ground on a 108 to maybe 111 LSA installed on the intake lobes 3 to 6 degrees advanced with as much lobe lift that you can get and use either 1.5 or 1.6 ratio rockers

I agree that 280*/283* @ .050 is rather large for your 11.5 comp.

With a mechanical roller, something between 265/270 on the intake with .650 lift should be a better fit. IMO I wouldn't even Try to use that big cam you have, don't bother IMO.

EZ choice to make

Andy ,
You say you used an offset rocker . Trickflow on Summit show Harland Sharp S70015KE , which lists for a Edelbrock rpm on HS site
Victors are listed as using S70015EVK which are .650 offset
So do the 270s use non offset or offset ?

Tex

Not offset. S700115KE supposedly corrects geometry issues with the Trick Flos. Just bought a set.

I said "standard offset".

Mikey's 470 that Pettis built w.11.7? comp has a monster(to some)cam and I think is even bigger than this one and he's flying w/an 1150 dommy I did and has a string of 6.0's and 9.50's...........My turd has 276-281 @ .050 and is an easy docile car to drive street/strip...........

I was quoting the flow advertised from Brodix. I was a bit curious about the 295 cfm rating too, but maybe they made a few changes in the last 25+ years from when I bought my set. I think the heads I bought were from the second batch of castings, and were not drilled in the front for accessories. I bought them from Koffels with stage I porting (kind of like port and bowl clean-up work), 1.6:1 ratio rocker arms, and cut to length pushrods and I think the bill was right about $3,000 (around 2001?) A few years ago I had them tested on the flow bench, and I think they flowed about 298 cfm?

Andy ,
I misunderstood .
"What rocker arms do you have now? The 270 uses standard rocker arms so what you have might work."
OP has Crane rockers for standard port Stealth heads .
Thanks for your input

Tex

Thanks markz528
So you could possibly use the Crane standard rocker if geometry works ?
I know it sounds like I am beating this to death BUT if I go this way I am looking at over $1300 of my quality Aussie dollars plus shipping .

Tex

Just to keep things off topic.......

I haven't had a B1BS in the shop in quite a long time.
As I recall, ootb they did flow close to 290...... But didn't get near that until .700 lift.

One thing I remember about the first one I tested was, the low/mid-lift flow was so bad I stopped about 1/2 way through the test to make sure there wasn't a problem with the bench.
I couldn't believe that an aftermarket head with a 2.20 intake valve could be that bad.

I ended up getting them to work pretty well...... Around 320@.700 while keeping the runner fairly small, and making some nice improvements in the low/mid flow.

On a flat top 446 in a 3900lb car they were good enough to let the car run high 10.40's with a single 850, and high 10.20's@130 with the MP TR and 2 x 750's on it.

You can use them if you can tolerate the geometry. The Harlan Sharp are expensive - around $950 standard price!

“ in theory” the HS “E” rockers are basically the same length as the Crane golds.

Yes or use the Mancini rocker arms. The Mancini rocker arms are a copy of the old Crane rocker arms. They are made by Harland for Mancini as a low end rocker arm. They work on the Trick Flow heads but are unbushed and probably won't last a super long time. But some race cars only make a few passes a year so in a situation like that they could last a life time.

Did you read the rocker arm article I wrote? I tried a bunch of different rocker arms on Trick Flow heads. There shouldn't be a lot of questions left after reading that article. I tried basically everything that is currently available.

thanks markz528


Tex

Andy ,
I am not being a smart ar$e .
I have seen some of your rocker info re the 240 head and you said Cranes were fine . All I have seen on the 270 was your pictures/dyno test and use of offset high ratio ones.
TrickFlow list a non offset rocker . markz528 also notes the listed rocker is not offset

Quote from Summit -
Q:
Do these heads run an offset rocker??
Asked by KEITH E on September 12, 2017
A:
Thank you for your question. The Trick Flow Specialties TFS-61617801-C01 cylinder heads do not require an offset rocker arm. They use all factory-style big block Mopar shaft mount rockers.
Summit Racing Answer - October 16, 2017

If you can link your rocker test , would be great .
Someone's wires may be crossed .

Tex

The 240's and 270's use the same rockers.

Std offset, like what you'd use on a stock head or RPM head.

Go look at the TF270 articles and you'll see that I used the same exact rocker arms as on the TF240. Both the 240 and the 270 use standard offset rocker arms.

Thanks

Tex

Where would the Indy little ez 295 or 325 compare to the TF 240,270? They use standard rockers.

Trick Flow heads are a better value.

Has anybody used this part that trickflow came out with ??

Trick Flow Specialties TFS-61600830 - Trick Flow Specialties Valley Pans and Gaskets

I used the valley plate for the 400 block. Its a nice quality part but there is a good gap between the plate and the head that needs to be filled with RTV. I think this part is only for the MW/270 head, the standard port/240 uses a valley pan.

I used Andy's valley plate and bat wing gasket system and it works quite well with my TF 240's.

Well I just ordered the Trick flow 270 heads. They should be here next week. Thanks everyone for the advise and suggestions. I am looking forward to getting my hands on these heads. Is there anything that I need to do before I bolt them on?

Thanks again,

Digger73 (Mike)

Only thing i have read is check valve guide clearance , can be a little tight

Tex

how can I get a set of those bat wing spacers andy makes

Heads came today! They look AWESOME! I can't wait for the weekend to start installing them.

Digger73 (Mike)

Look forward to your results . Please let us know which rocker setup you use and how they fit up . Plus of cause how they perform on your engine package

Tex

Got mine through Mancini . Have to wait till June mid season winter break to fit them up

Tex

that is not a aggressive cam at all try not to have heads that flow too many cfm compared to lift as you will have the volume but not the velocity of air and you will have a high revving dog of a motor. Compared to a head that is suited to your cam. I am not a mechanic but the camshaft to me sets the pace. It is the foundation. Understand what it wants and you will have a successful build. Get it wrong and you will have wasted your time and money. Buy your came from somewhere like summit racing and talk to the folks in there tech department. No I do not work there I am from Canada but those folks will steer you in the right direction. Other than that get a desk top Dyno heard they are fairly accurate. Everyone want a simple answer but simple answer are not so simple. I am new and actually signed up because I couldn’t find answer that made sense. You Mopar guys really safe guard your info. Weird

When it comes to guys, gals now also, and drag racing there are several different types of guys, gals and racers. Some that will help and some that won't
Some of those that will share info that have valid info, there are others that will share with you what they know but may not fully understand how to tell you useable information and their are some of those that will intentionally mislead you when you ask them for help
Be carful on who you use for information gathering
Drag racing and private flying are very similar, neither one is getting bigger from growth and more racers and air plane owners and pilots