Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi
[Re: madscientist]
#2442640
01/29/18 01:39 AM
01/29/18 01:39 AM
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 3,036 bean town ....Ca
WHITEDART
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 3,036
bean town ....Ca
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If you could bring the fuel in with the fuel injection above the butterfly it'll make the same power as the carburetor and I bet the fuel injection accelerate the car faster.. again only if you bring the fuel in above the butterfly.. my opinion only..
In the 8s N/A.with Brett miller W8's 5.07 at 133 at 2700lb
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Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi
[Re: dodger mope]
#2442645
01/29/18 01:44 AM
01/29/18 01:44 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 12,587 Great Neck,LI,new york
hemi-itis
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2007
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Great Neck,LI,new york
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That would be a cool comparison worthy of ink,,,,as long as Dom has the chance to make a few pulls and adjust accordingly.
Or bring 5 carbs to find the best combo!
What do I know,I'm using 2 toilette bowls,,,LOL
HEMI-ITIS has no cure. My condition is fully BLOWN!!
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Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi
[Re: hemi-itis]
#2442657
01/29/18 01:56 AM
01/29/18 01:56 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,162 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,162
PA.
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Actual track runs would be extra nice and a way better comparison.
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi
[Re: dodger mope]
#2442658
01/29/18 01:56 AM
01/29/18 01:56 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,997 Oregon
AndyF
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,997
Oregon
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I did that test last year. EFI made more power on race gas, power was down a little bit with Q16 due to injector location.
Last edited by AndyF; 01/29/18 03:14 AM.
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Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi
[Re: AndyF]
#2442761
01/29/18 09:42 AM
01/29/18 09:42 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,243 Charlotte, North Carolina
sgcuda
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,243
Charlotte, North Carolina
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I did that test last year. EFI made more power on race gas, power was down a little bit with Q16 due to injector location.
Ah! But EFI has a self adjusting feature. Who was there to correct the carb circuits and were the right circuits corrected or just masking missed calibrations?
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Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#2442798
01/29/18 11:35 AM
01/29/18 11:35 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,807 Mopar Country, Mi
ccdave
The Ultimate
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The Ultimate
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,807
Mopar Country, Mi
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Actual track runs would be extra nice and a way better comparison. That's a great idea I guess a few things would have to change on a EFI car at the track to make this happen... 1. different ignition system for the carb? 2. fuel pump? Maybe regulate down to 7psi? 3 Distributor???? I would love to see a real world comparison
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Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi
[Re: dodger mope]
#2442824
01/29/18 12:45 PM
01/29/18 12:45 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,028 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,028
Benton, IL.
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Excellent idea! But there does need to be 2 other factors considered that I think everyone would also need to know. Total actual costs for each and the difficulty level for the average guy.
My personal opinion is that each system will have areas where they out-perform the other with the overall advantage going to EFI.
But the carb (if properly tuned) will be much less expensive, even after Thumper's magic and much simpler to install.
If/when EFI gets close to tuned carb pricing, I might consider making the switch. But here's the rub; my Thumper tuned Dominator may not be perfect. But the car behaves so well, that it is hard to imagine how much better several thousand dollars worth of EFI could make it.
Master, again and still
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Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi
[Re: DaveRS23]
#2442832
01/29/18 12:56 PM
01/29/18 12:56 PM
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 3,036 bean town ....Ca
WHITEDART
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 3,036
bean town ....Ca
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I use a carburetor because of cost effectiveness.. and if money was no object I assure you I would be running fuel injection.. I'm sure Thumpers carb will perform well.. but I definitely think the writing is on the wall concerning the future...
Last edited by WHITEDART; 01/29/18 12:57 PM.
In the 8s N/A.with Brett miller W8's 5.07 at 133 at 2700lb
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Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi
[Re: dodger mope]
#2442853
01/29/18 01:41 PM
01/29/18 01:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,361 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 19,361
Las Vegas
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Leonard Long made the switch on his car two years ago. He is a very smart guy with an endless budget having some of the best in the business working on his stuff. He saw ZERO hp with the engine and the car slowed down. In 2016 he struggled with the combo but in 2017 it came around for him and he as able to win the NA10.5 championship again. He had a lot of help from some friends of his in the Rotary engine wars. They think outside the box and basically told him and his engine builder and dyno guys that you have to put an injector where the engine is telling you it wants it. IF that means on the inside of a given runner half way up the runner than that's where one goes. I am not sure of his total configuration now but last year when we were talking to him and his guys there were 22 injectors on his engine. Sheet metal intake with 8 injectors up top.
FWIW he has been 7.80's with his SB Ferd in NA10.5. He is always trying new stuff. Last year mid season was a lenco drive and converter with his G Force trans, Leonard is the owner of G Force fyi. This year not sure what he has going on but he tackled this EFI deal at the end of 2015 and is now back to where he was at the end of that year. I can tell you all of us involved in NA 10.5 are watching, but so far he is the only one to take the leap. We have heard the stories and seen first hand how it works. It almost cost him the Championship in 2017 when they struggled with electrical gremlins in Norwalk..
Guess what I'm saying is this guy has the best people involved in his program, Vizner builds his engines and the Bartons have helped with the EFI set up. Money is no object for Leonard and he struggled a fair amount with it. We have some fast cars in the class for sure and we are all watching.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#2442899
01/29/18 03:27 PM
01/29/18 03:27 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
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Leonard Long made the switch on his car two years ago. He is a very smart guy with an endless budget having some of the best in the business working on his stuff. He saw ZERO hp with the engine and the car slowed down. In 2016 he struggled with the combo but in 2017 it came around for him and he as able to win the NA10.5 championship again. He had a lot of help from some friends of his in the Rotary engine wars. They think outside the box and basically told him and his engine builder and dyno guys that you have to put an injector where the engine is telling you it wants it. IF that means on the inside of a given runner half way up the runner than that's where one goes. I am not sure of his total configuration now but last year when we were talking to him and his guys there were 22 injectors on his engine. Sheet metal intake with 8 injectors up top.
FWIW he has been 7.80's with his SB Ferd in NA10.5. He is always trying new stuff. Last year mid season was a lenco drive and converter with his G Force trans, Leonard is the owner of G Force fyi. This year not sure what he has going on but he tackled this EFI deal at the end of 2015 and is now back to where he was at the end of that year. I can tell you all of us involved in NA 10.5 are watching, but so far he is the only one to take the leap. We have heard the stories and seen first hand how it works. It almost cost him the Championship in 2017 when they struggled with electrical gremlins in Norwalk..
Guess what I'm saying is this guy has the best people involved in his program, Vizner builds his engines and the Bartons have helped with the EFI set up. Money is no object for Leonard and he struggled a fair amount with it. We have some fast cars in the class for sure and we are all watching. Thanks for the great info.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi
[Re: madscientist]
#2442910
01/29/18 03:41 PM
01/29/18 03:41 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,162 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,162
PA.
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Didn’t we have a few Moparts members switch over to fuel injection years ago and their cars haven’t hit the track since. I’ve read some real struggles on here.
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#2442948
01/29/18 04:58 PM
01/29/18 04:58 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,127 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
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Posts: 43,127
Bend,OR USA
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Last edited by Cab_Burge; 01/29/18 05:01 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2443056
01/29/18 08:47 PM
01/29/18 08:47 PM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,669 Wichita
GY3
master
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master
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Wichita
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I have a $100 carb that has zero electrical connections to have issues, starts and runs perfectly and gets decent mileage to boot.
Spending 10x that amount for similar results is foolish IMO.
For other applications it may be feasible but not on mine.
'63 Dodge 330 11.19 @ 121 mph Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs. 10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.
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Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi
[Re: dodger mope]
#2443057
01/29/18 08:53 PM
01/29/18 08:53 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419 Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
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I Live Here
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Posts: 12,419
Kalispell Mt.
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Just different ways to do the same thing, some people think digitally and some can picture fuel and air flowing through circuits in a carb. There are tons of dyno tests all over on the line and you can find a bunch to back up witchever one you think is best.
What it all boils down to is a carb will restrict air flow slightly more and need more manual tuning for temp/alt changes but a carb is gonna evaporate the fuel a little more on the way down the runner, carbs have also been wrung out 100 years longer. EFI can also tune each cylinder to get the absolute most HP out of it, thats a little harder to do with a carb.
And for what its worth the guy tuning with a all out engine on EFI ain't probably gonna rely very much on the self tuning aspect.
On the other hand a carb is a lot cheaper and you can usually get more HP spending an extra thou or two on cylinder heads or exhaust or a plethora of other things that will make more difference than EFI.
Last but not least look at what the pinacle of motorsports are running, guys like formula 1 or 24 hrs daytona type stuff and there are no carbs in sight. When MPG is the goal you can't beat EFI, a carb can not cut off fuel on decell and other things.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi
[Re: dodger mope]
#2443063
01/29/18 09:00 PM
01/29/18 09:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX
feets
Senior Management
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Senior Management
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067
Irving, TX
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You will not see an appreciable difference on the dyno. Carb will have a slight advantage due to where the fuel enters the airstream.
When you get to the track and a stray cloud covers the sun the EFI will have the advantage.
When density changes due to a front passing through the EFI will have the advantage.
And on and on.
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind. - Stu Harmon
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Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi
[Re: dodger mope]
#2443076
01/29/18 09:32 PM
01/29/18 09:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,021 Tulsa OK
Bad340fish
master
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master
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Posts: 8,021
Tulsa OK
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I am a big EFI fan and will never go back to a carb, at least on my current car.
I think people put to much stock in the "self tuning" aspect of it though. They will tune to whatever AFR they are programmed for, it doesn't mean that it is right for your engine. That is something that you or your tuner need to find that happy place. Then you need to make the adjustments so it hits those targets in all conditions.
It would be unfair to do a Dyno test and not have several hours of tune time for both systems. There is no slap it on and flog it system that is perfect out of the box.
68 Barracuda Formula S 340
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