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#2442583 - 01/28/18 09:38 PM thumperdart vs andy's fi
dodger mope Offline
member

Registered: 07/18/10
Posts: 193
Loc: in the middle
it would be great fun to see a dino showdown between thumperdarts carburetors against andys fuel injection.using andy 470 engine, intake and
and all... i would bet a dollar,but i am sure witch one?

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#2442629 - 01/28/18 10:32 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
madscientist Offline


Registered: 09/17/14
Posts: 2277
Loc: Washington
Id bet on the carb
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Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston

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#2442640 - 01/28/18 10:39 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: madscientist]
WHITEDART Offline
top fuel

Registered: 10/06/11
Posts: 2419
Loc: bean town ....Ca
If you could bring the fuel in with the fuel injection above the butterfly it'll make the same power as the carburetor and I bet the fuel injection accelerate the car faster.. again only if you bring the fuel in above the butterfly.. my opinion only..
_________________________
In the 8s N/A.with Brett miller W8's
5.42 8.52 159.

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#2442645 - 01/28/18 10:44 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
hemi-itis Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 12/29/07
Posts: 10769
Loc: Great Neck,LI,new york
That would be a cool comparison worthy of ink,,,,as long as Dom has the chance to make a few pulls and adjust accordingly.


Or bring 5 carbs to find the best combo!

What do I know,I'm using 2 toilette bowls,,,LOL
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HEMI-ITIS has no cure. My condition is fully BLOWN!!!

New best 60ft,, 1.42,1/8, 6.0 @117,, 9.38 @146.75 with 6 lbs boost @3700 lbs

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#2442657 - 01/28/18 10:56 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: hemi-itis]
pittsburghracer Offline
Slowride

Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 13448
Loc: PA.
Actual track runs would be extra nice and a way better comparison.
_________________________
1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
6.143@110.89 mph
9.73@135.05 mph shifting at 6700 RPM
422 Indy headed small block
6.001@113.27mph
9.42@138.27

Untitled by John Cadamore, on Flickr





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#2442658 - 01/28/18 10:56 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
AndyF Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 24642
Loc: Oregon
I did that test last year. EFI made more power on race gas, power was down a little bit with Q16 due to injector location.



Attachments
EFI v Carb.pdf (133 downloads)



Edited by AndyF (01/29/18 12:14 AM)

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#2442761 - 01/29/18 06:42 AM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: AndyF]
sgcuda Offline
master

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 4008
Loc: Charlotte, North Carolina
Originally Posted By AndyF
I did that test last year. EFI made more power on race gas, power was down a little bit with Q16 due to injector location.


Ah! But EFI has a self adjusting feature. Who was there to correct the carb circuits and were the right circuits corrected or just masking missed calibrations?

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#2442798 - 01/29/18 08:35 AM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: pittsburghracer]
ccdave Offline
The Ultimate

Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 1754
Loc: Mopar Country, Mi
Originally Posted By pittsburghracer
Actual track runs would be extra nice and a way better comparison.



That's a great idea up I guess a few things would have to change on a EFI car at the track to make this happen...

1. different ignition system for the carb?

2. fuel pump? Maybe regulate down to 7psi?

3 Distributor????

I would love to see a real world comparison drinking

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#2442824 - 01/29/18 09:45 AM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
DaveRS23 Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 4734
Loc: Benton, IL.
Excellent idea! But there does need to be 2 other factors considered that I think everyone would also need to know. Total actual costs for each and the difficulty level for the average guy.

My personal opinion is that each system will have areas where they out-perform the other with the overall advantage going to EFI.

But the carb (if properly tuned) will be much less expensive, even after Thumper's magic and much simpler to install.

If/when EFI gets close to tuned carb pricing, I might consider making the switch. But here's the rub; my Thumper tuned Dominator may not be perfect. But the car behaves so well, that it is hard to imagine how much better several thousand dollars worth of EFI could make it.
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KOS

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#2442832 - 01/29/18 09:56 AM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: DaveRS23]
WHITEDART Offline
top fuel

Registered: 10/06/11
Posts: 2419
Loc: bean town ....Ca
I use a carburetor because of cost effectiveness.. and if money was no object I assure you I would be running fuel injection.. I'm sure Thumpers carb will perform well.. but I definitely think the writing is on the wall concerning the future...


Edited by WHITEDART (01/29/18 09:57 AM)
_________________________
In the 8s N/A.with Brett miller W8's
5.42 8.52 159.

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#2442853 - 01/29/18 10:41 AM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
Al_Alguire Offline


Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 16835
Loc: Las Vegas
Leonard Long made the switch on his car two years ago. He is a very smart guy with an endless budget having some of the best in the business working on his stuff. He saw ZERO hp with the engine and the car slowed down. In 2016 he struggled with the combo but in 2017 it came around for him and he as able to win the NA10.5 championship again. He had a lot of help from some friends of his in the Rotary engine wars. They think outside the box and basically told him and his engine builder and dyno guys that you have to put an injector where the engine is telling you it wants it. IF that means on the inside of a given runner half way up the runner than that's where one goes. I am not sure of his total configuration now but last year when we were talking to him and his guys there were 22 injectors on his engine. Sheet metal intake with 8 injectors up top.

FWIW he has been 7.80's with his SB Ferd in NA10.5. He is always trying new stuff. Last year mid season was a lenco drive and converter with his G Force trans, Leonard is the owner of G Force fyi. This year not sure what he has going on but he tackled this EFI deal at the end of 2015 and is now back to where he was at the end of that year. I can tell you all of us involved in NA 10.5 are watching, but so far he is the only one to take the leap. We have heard the stories and seen first hand how it works. It almost cost him the Championship in 2017 when they struggled with electrical gremlins in Norwalk..

Guess what I'm saying is this guy has the best people involved in his program, Vizner builds his engines and the Bartons have helped with the EFI set up. Money is no object for Leonard and he struggled a fair amount with it. We have some fast cars in the class for sure and we are all watching.
_________________________

"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"

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#2442898 - 01/29/18 12:26 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
Thumperdart Offline


Registered: 07/12/04
Posts: 18907
Loc: State of confusion
As much as I bust his ass, I respect his info and the time he puts into his testing plus his products and would love to work something out like that...........let's making it happen............ thumbs
_________________________
72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....

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#2442899 - 01/29/18 12:27 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: Al_Alguire]
madscientist Offline


Registered: 09/17/14
Posts: 2277
Loc: Washington
Originally Posted By Al_Alguire
Leonard Long made the switch on his car two years ago. He is a very smart guy with an endless budget having some of the best in the business working on his stuff. He saw ZERO hp with the engine and the car slowed down. In 2016 he struggled with the combo but in 2017 it came around for him and he as able to win the NA10.5 championship again. He had a lot of help from some friends of his in the Rotary engine wars. They think outside the box and basically told him and his engine builder and dyno guys that you have to put an injector where the engine is telling you it wants it. IF that means on the inside of a given runner half way up the runner than that's where one goes. I am not sure of his total configuration now but last year when we were talking to him and his guys there were 22 injectors on his engine. Sheet metal intake with 8 injectors up top.

FWIW he has been 7.80's with his SB Ferd in NA10.5. He is always trying new stuff. Last year mid season was a lenco drive and converter with his G Force trans, Leonard is the owner of G Force fyi. This year not sure what he has going on but he tackled this EFI deal at the end of 2015 and is now back to where he was at the end of that year. I can tell you all of us involved in NA 10.5 are watching, but so far he is the only one to take the leap. We have heard the stories and seen first hand how it works. It almost cost him the Championship in 2017 when they struggled with electrical gremlins in Norwalk..

Guess what I'm saying is this guy has the best people involved in his program, Vizner builds his engines and the Bartons have helped with the EFI set up. Money is no object for Leonard and he struggled a fair amount with it. We have some fast cars in the class for sure and we are all watching.




Thanks for the great info.
_________________________
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston

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#2442910 - 01/29/18 12:41 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: madscientist]
pittsburghracer Offline
Slowride

Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 13448
Loc: PA.
Didn’t we have a few Moparts members switch over to fuel injection years ago and their cars haven’t hit the track since. I’ve read some real struggles on here.
_________________________
1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
6.143@110.89 mph
9.73@135.05 mph shifting at 6700 RPM
422 Indy headed small block
6.001@113.27mph
9.42@138.27

Untitled by John Cadamore, on Flickr





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#2442948 - 01/29/18 01:58 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: pittsburghracer]
Cab_Burge Offline
I Win

Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 31391
Loc: Bend,OR USA
I think to many car guys think there is magic in electronics, maybe there is devil
But when it comes to basics of a internal N/A combustion motors on gasoline it takes a certain amount of fuel and air to make a stated amount of power, no matter how you mix it shruggy
That being considered carbs. are more sensitive and less tuneable when running under different weather conditions and elevation changes with out changes, EFI can and will adapt to those same changes seamlessly up work
Is NHRA Pro Stock running faster now with EFI and no hood bump than when they ran twin carbs with a hood scoop work stirthepot grin whistling


Edited by Cab_Burge (01/29/18 02:01 PM)
_________________________
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)

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#2443056 - 01/29/18 05:47 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: Cab_Burge]
GY3 Offline


Registered: 12/13/13
Posts: 2487
Loc: Wichita
I have a $100 carb that has zero electrical connections to have issues, starts and runs perfectly and gets decent mileage to boot.

Spending 10x that amount for similar results is foolish IMO.

For other applications it may be feasible but not on mine.
_________________________
'63 Dodge 330
11.19 @ 121 mph
Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's
10.69 @ 128mph with 150hp shot of nitrous


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#2443057 - 01/29/18 05:53 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
HotRodDave Offline
master

Registered: 01/29/05
Posts: 9871
Loc: Kalispell Mt.
Just different ways to do the same thing, some people think digitally and some can picture fuel and air flowing through circuits in a carb. There are tons of dyno tests all over on the line and you can find a bunch to back up witchever one you think is best.

What it all boils down to is a carb will restrict air flow slightly more and need more manual tuning for temp/alt changes but a carb is gonna evaporate the fuel a little more on the way down the runner, carbs have also been wrung out 100 years longer. EFI can also tune each cylinder to get the absolute most HP out of it, thats a little harder to do with a carb.

And for what its worth the guy tuning with a all out engine on EFI ain't probably gonna rely very much on the self tuning aspect.

On the other hand a carb is a lot cheaper and you can usually get more HP spending an extra thou or two on cylinder heads or exhaust or a plethora of other things that will make more difference than EFI.

Last but not least look at what the pinacle of motorsports are running, guys like formula 1 or 24 hrs daytona type stuff and there are no carbs in sight. When MPG is the goal you can't beat EFI, a carb can not cut off fuel on decell and other things.
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I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!




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#2443063 - 01/29/18 06:00 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
feets Offline
Senior Management

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 27219
Loc: Irving, TX
You will not see an appreciable difference on the dyno. Carb will have a slight advantage due to where the fuel enters the airstream.

When you get to the track and a stray cloud covers the sun the EFI will have the advantage.

When density changes due to a front passing through the EFI will have the advantage.

And on and on.

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#2443076 - 01/29/18 06:32 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
Bad340fish Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 5824
Loc: Tulsa OK
I am a big EFI fan and will never go back to a carb, at least on my current car.

I think people put to much stock in the "self tuning" aspect of it though. They will tune to whatever AFR they are programmed for, it doesn't mean that it is right for your engine. That is something that you or your tuner need to find that happy place. Then you need to make the adjustments so it hits those targets in all conditions.

It would be unfair to do a Dyno test and not have several hours of tune time for both systems. There is no slap it on and flog it system that is perfect out of the box.
_________________________
68 Barracuda Formula S 340

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#2443082 - 01/29/18 06:43 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
JAMESDART Offline
mopar

Registered: 07/03/06
Posts: 495
Loc: nj
2 guys I talked to, one Chevy and one mopar both told me in the end they had over $10,000 into their multi port efi swap. One guy asked me how I liked my ez efi, when I told him I wasn't 100% sold on it and kind of wished I left the trouble free carb I had, he said yeah his had been a real nightmare, had way more into it than he ever imagined. No kidding I'd never expect to be up to 10 grand. That's just crazy.

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